Russia to Develop Rocket for New-Generation Manned Spacecraft

[Steven Pietrobon]

Guys, use the Bing translator. Its much better than Google! I'll I did below was replace "Hangars" with "Angara".

http://www.bing.com/translator/

"-Is it true that using "Angara" cannot be manned launches?
-At the moment it really isn't ready to fit into the program of manned launches. But when the task that can be achieved. With some refinement and without very serious financial investments "Angara" is able to carry out launches of new spaceships. It is clear that it is to do this and how to do it. This will not cause any significant changes in the design, will not require much time. We are ready to do "Angara" manned. It is absolutely real."

[fregate]

Guys, use the Bing translator. Its much better than Google! I'll I did below was replace "Hangars" with "Angara".

http://www.bing.com/translator/

"-Is it true that using "Angara" cannot be manned launches?
-At the moment it really isn't ready to fit into the program of manned launches. But when the task that can be achieved. With some refinement and without very serious financial investments "Angara" is able to carry out launches of new spaceships. It is clear that it is to do this and how to do it. This will not cause any significant changes in the design, will not require much time. We are ready to do "Angara" manned. It is absolutely real."

G'day Steven,
Despite the fact that I am a native Russian speaker, very often I have troubles to understand what effectively became "Lost in Translation" (without Bill Murray) during interview when journalists quite twisted original interviewee words or quoted them out of question context.
Good luck with Google, Bing or other on-line translator - from my experience it simply not able to deal with Orwellian New Language constructs

[asmi]

What it means in plain English is that they haven't got a contract to build man-rated A5P yet (which is fair enough since the spacecraft is not ready yet). It's the same principle "Nothing is done until it's done".

[fregate]

@asmi - my understanding of khrunichev statement that they would like to get funding for man-rated yesterday they are claiming that it could be done quickly (well relatively comparing with 20+ Years history of Angara development), but they have to wait for Roscosmos tender that would be issued only after maiden flight of Angara-5 and before launch pad on Vostochnyi would.built.

[asmi]

@asmi - my understanding of khrunichev statement that they would like to get funding for man-rated yesterday they are claiming that it could be done quickly (well relatively comparing with 20+ Years history of Angara development), but they have to wait for Roscosmos tender that would be issued only after maiden flight of Angara-5 and before launch pad on Vostochnyi would.built.

Initial flight testing of PTK was supposed to be atop Zenit-2, but due to new obvious circumstances this is no longer an option, so it's fair to expect some movements to accelerate A5P program. But it seems unlikely that there will be any news in that regards until A5 maiden flight.

[fregate]

@asmi - my understanding of khrunichev statement that they would like to get funding for man-rated yesterday they are claiming that it could be done quickly (well relatively comparing with 20+ Years history of Angara development), but they have to wait for Roscosmos tender that would be issued only after maiden flight of Angara-5 and before launch pad on Vostochnyi would.built.

Initial flight testing of PTK was supposed to be atop Zenit-2, but due to new obvious circumstances this is no longer an option, so it's fair to expect some movements to accelerate A5P program. But it seems unlikely that there will be any news in that regards until A5 maiden flight.

Agree with you about A5 maiden flight. Regarding Zenit-2 - it's was out of picture more than year ago, for unmanned PTK testing would be used Proton-M LV instead of Zenit-2.   

[B. Hendrickx]

@asmi - my understanding of khrunichev statement that they would like to get funding for man-rated yesterday they are claiming that it could be done quickly (well relatively comparing with 20+ Years history of Angara development), but they have to wait for Roscosmos tender that would be issued only after maiden flight of Angara-5 and before launch pad on Vostochnyi would.built.

Let's not forget that Khrunichev won a tender (code-named Amur)  for the development of a man-rated version of Angara-5 in August 2012. This covered the preliminary design (eskiznyy proyekt in Russian) of the rocket, which was to be finished by May 2013.

See for instance Anatoly Zak's website :

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/vostochny_angara.html

The next stage should be a tender for the so-called ''technical plan'' (tekhnicheskiy proyekt), but I'm not sure if that has been announced yet.

[Danderman]

My impression is that Energia bet the farm that they would get a contract for their RD-171 based medium rocket that could serve as  the basis for an HLV; furthermore, they hoped to use that medium rocket from the Sea Launch platform to replace Zenit.

Since the concept of operations remains transport of rockets by rail, the diameter of the new launcher would be similar to Zenit. IMHO, given the low flight rate for this class LV, transport by air would allow a wider core (Energia could ship sea-launched cores via barge from Moscow).  A wider core would have several benefits for operations.

[fregate]

@asmi - my understanding of khrunichev statement that they would like to get funding for man-rated yesterday they are claiming that it could be done quickly (well relatively comparing with 20+ Years history of Angara development), but they have to wait for Roscosmos tender that would be issued only after maiden flight of Angara-5 and before launch pad on Vostochnyi would.built.

Let's not forget that Khrunichev won a tender (code-named Amur)  for the development of a man-rated version of Angara-5 in August 2012. This covered the preliminary design (eskiznyy proyekt in Russian) of the rocket, which was to be finished by May 2013.

See for instance Anatoly Zak's website :

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/vostochny_angara.html

The next stage should be a tender for the so-called ''technical plan'' (tekhnicheskiy proyekt), but I'm not sure if that has been announced yet.

Yes Bart, I am aware of this - R&D Amur Preliminary design had been completed and submitted to TsNIIMash. However Oleg Ostapenko does not have a faith in "evolving capability" of Angara LV family (he insist that after 20+ years of development it's a still born baby, and if it not obsolete yet it might became obsolete quite soon). IMHO man rated Angara A5P  - decision had been made not to make any decisions    

[fregate]

My impression is that Energia bet the farm that they would get a contract for their RD-171 based medium rocket that could serve as  the basis for an HLV; furthermore, they hoped to use that medium rocket from the Sea Launch platform to replace Zenit.

Since the concept of operations remains transport of rockets by rail, the diameter of the new launcher would be similar to Zenit. IMHO, given the low flight rate for this class LV, transport by air would allow a wider core (Energia could ship sea-launched cores via barge from Moscow).  A wider core would have several benefits for operations.

David, AFAIK RSC Energia does not have manufacturing capabilities to manufacture LVs, RSC Progress has and they might be interested to produce a Russian Zenit (subject to funding). Unfortunately Samara's space centre does not have any tooling neither for 3.9 m nor for 4.1 m in order to produce rocket stages. 4.1m Proton stages still possible to transport by rail road from Moscow to Baikonour  (but it would be impossible to deliver them to Vostochny). AN-124 Ruslan variant might be quite capable to transport them inside of cargo jet.     

[Danderman]

David, AFAIK RSC Energia does not have manufacturing capabilities to manufacture LVs, RSC Progress has and they might be interested to produce a Russian Zenit (subject to funding). Unfortunately Samara's space centre does not have any tooling neither for 3.9 m nor for 4.1 m in order to produce rocket stages. 4.1m Proton stages still possible to transport by rail road from Moscow to Baikonour  (but it would be impossible to deliver them to Vostochny). AN-124 Ruslan variant might be quite capable to transport them inside of cargo jet.     

Energia is a design bureau, so they would be thrilled to relegate serial production of rocket stages to some other enterprise.

If the government were smart, they would set up a production facility in the East to allow 5 meter cores to be easily transported to the launch site. Not everything needs to built in Moscow.

[asmi]

If the government were smart, they would set up a production facility in the East to allow 5 meter cores to be easily transported to the launch site. Not everything needs to built in Moscow.

Actually this is one of the options they are considering, since it can be built to accommodate even larger cores for HLV they are (supposedly) going to build. Speaking of which: Roscosmos asks 214B rubles (about 7B USD) for the development of SHLV in 2016-2025:

На первый этап работ Роскосмос просит выделить 214,6 миллиарда рублей — такая сумма прописана в проекте Федеральной космической программы (ФКП) на 2016-2025 годы. По словам высокопоставленного источника в Роскосмосе, общая сумма затрат на создание ракетного комплекса сверхтяжелого класса на космодроме Восточный близка к 500 миллиардам. На 2025-2030 годы, то есть на период уже следующей ФКП, приходится этап создания комплекса «в железе» и летные испытания.

My translation:

Roscosmos asks 214,6 billion rubles for the first stage - this amount is mentioned in the draft of the Federal Space Program for the period of 2016-2025. According to high-ranked source in Roscosmos, total cost of creating a rocket complex [meaning LV + launch complex] is close to 500B RUR. The actual building a complex "in metal" would happen in 2025-2030 period.

[B. Hendrickx]

If the government were smart, they would set up a production facility in the East to allow 5 meter cores to be easily transported to the launch site. Not everything needs to built in Moscow.

Actually this is one of the options they are considering, since it can be built to accommodate even larger cores for HLV they are (supposedly) going to build. Speaking of which: Roscosmos asks 214B rubles (about 7B USD) for the development of SHLV in 2016-2025:

На первый этап работ Роскосмос просит выделить 214,6 миллиарда рублей — такая сумма прописана в проекте Федеральной космической программы (ФКП) на 2016-2025 годы. По словам высокопоставленного источника в Роскосмосе, общая сумма затрат на создание ракетного комплекса сверхтяжелого класса на космодроме Восточный близка к 500 миллиардам. На 2025-2030 годы, то есть на период уже следующей ФКП, приходится этап создания комплекса «в железе» и летные испытания.

My translation:

Roscosmos asks 214,6 billion rubles for the first stage - this amount is mentioned in the draft of the Federal Space Program for the period of 2016-2025. According to high-ranked source in Roscosmos, total cost of creating a rocket complex [meaning LV + launch complex] is close to 500B RUR. The actual building a complex "in metal" would happen in 2025-2030 period.

More details given by Izvestia, which has obtained a copy of the draft Federal Space Program (FSP) for 2016-2025 :
http://izvestia.ru/news/575302

The money requested in the draft FSP would cover the development of liquid oxygen/hydrocarbon (read : methane) engines for the first stage, a liquid oxygen/hydrogen engine for the second stage and an upper stage equipped with a cluster of liquid oxygen/hydrogen engines. The rocket will be developed in two phases : by 2028-2030 it should be capable of placing 80-100 tons into LEO, making it possible to place the PTK next-generation piloted vehicle into lunar orbit. A lunar landing mission will require a more powerful version of the rocket with an unprecedented cargo capacity of 160-180 tons to LEO. The take-off mass of the lunar landing complex is expected to be 20-25 tons, in the same order as the PTK itself. Funding will be requested in the FSP 2016-2025 for initial development of the lunar landing complex.

Izvestia's source stresses that in the currrent financial climate funding for these highly ambitious projects may not be approved, but adds that if no funds are earmarked for these projects in the coming FSP, it makes little sense to continue construction of the Vostochnyy cosmodrome, billed by the Putin administration as Russia's gateway to the Moon and Mars.

Another Izvestia article posted on 11 August says the draft FSP also calls for beginning initial work on a elements of a Russian lunar base in 2018. A total of 10.37 billion rubles is being requested for that work in the upcoming FSP :

http://izvestia.ru/news/575045

[fregate]

...
If the government were smart, they would set up a production facility in the East to allow 5 meter cores to be easily transported to the launch site. Not everything needs to built in Moscow.

Since when any Government  made SMART decisions?  


Remember quote about government in the movie "Contact" (1997)?

S.R. Hadden: First rule in government spending: why build one when you can have two at twice the price

On a serious note Russian government indirectly admitted that it could not manage a triad of strategic space projects (New Generation Spacecraft, New Generation (or rather a new oldie) Launch Vehicle and a brand new Spaceport on Far East). As far as I could remember A. Zak predicted it at least couple of years prior to 2011 announcement of Rus-M LV cancellation by late Mr Popovkin.


Building new facilities on Far East requires a lot of time, a plenty of capital investments and intake of a fresh "blood" of young aerospace engineers and rocket scientists. IMHO decision about new production facilities could be made only AFTER completion of Soyuz and Angara launch pads on Vostochny and AFTER completion of the Preliminary design of SHLV. No way it could be done prior to completion of those two milestones.
 
Transporting rocket stages by cargo plane seems to be more practical than commitment to a new production plant. Another economically sound decision would be outsourcing production into China or South Korea, but it an't going to happened by political reasons (it contradicts principle of INDEPENDENT ACCESS TO SPACE )           

[fregate]

...
The money requested in the draft FSP would cover the development of liquid oxygen/hydrocarbon (read : methane) engines for the first stage

G'day Bart, I would not be 100% sure about this statement there is a chance that Ivan Cheberko (author of this article and happy owner of the draft of the document) made a small mistake about LPG as a single example of hydrocarbon fuel: as a matter of fact Kerosene, Hydrogen and Methane are all hydrocarbons according to the Organic Chemistry handbook    (at least they were when I studied at school).

Confirmation from Ivan - it's not a mistake, according to the draft, Roscosmos insists on LNG fuel for LRE of the SHLV first stage propulsion.    Which is very strange considering that such a decision made before a formal tender for SHLV Conceptual Design.   

In 2010 was a tender for a Preliminary Design of MKRS-1 Main Propulsion system within R&D Dvigatel-2015 (Engine 2015). Choices were (as specified by technical requirements):
- Kerosene-fuelled LPRE with Specific impulse in vacuum 335 sec;
- Methane-fuelled LPRE with Specific impulse in vacuum 350 sec;
Nominal thrust on SL 200-300 tf;   
Work should be completed by the fall of 2012. 

«Создание маршевого многоразового жидкостного ракетного двигателя для первой ступени многоразовой ракетной космической системы. Выбор оптимального облика маршевого многоразового жидкостного ракетного двигателя перспективных ракет-носителей для пилотируемых космических комплексов и сверхтяжелой ракеты-носителя. Создание эффективной системы диагностики и аварий защиты двигателя» в части работ 2010-2012 г.». Шифр: ОКР «Двигатель-2015»
Начальная (максимальная) цена контракта: 516 000 000 руб.
Сроки выполнения контракта: апрель 2010 – декабрь 2012 г.

[Stan Black]

...
The money requested in the draft FSP would cover the development of liquid oxygen/hydrocarbon (read : methane) engines for the first stage

G'day Bart, I would not be 100% sure about this statement there is a chance that Ivan Cheberko (author of this article and happy owner of the draft of the document) made a small mistake about LPG as a single example of hydrocarbon fuel: as a matter of fact Kerosene, Hydrogen and Methane are all hydrocarbons according to the Organic Chemistry handbook    (at least they were when I studied at school).

Confirmation from Ivan - it's not a mistake, according to the draft, Roscosmos insists on LNG fuel for LRE of the SHLV first stage propulsion.    Which is very strange considering that such a decision made before a formal tender for SHLV Conceptual Design.   

In 2010 was a tender for a Preliminary Design of MKRS-1 Main Propulsion system within R&D Dvigatel-2015 (Engine 2015). Choices were (as specified by technical requirements):
- Kerosene-fuelled LPRE with Specific impulse in vacuum 335 sec;
- Methane-fuelled LPRE with Specific impulse in vacuum 350 sec;
Nominal thrust on SL 200-300 tf;   
Work should be completed by the fall of 2012. 

«Создание маршевого многоразового жидкостного ракетного двигателя для первой ступени многоразовой ракетной космической системы. Выбор оптимального облика маршевого многоразового жидкостного ракетного двигателя перспективных ракет-носителей для пилотируемых космических комплексов и сверхтяжелой ракеты-носителя. Создание эффективной системы диагностики и аварий защиты двигателя» в части работ 2010-2012 г.». Шифр: ОКР «Двигатель-2015»
Начальная (максимальная) цена контракта: 516 000 000 руб.
Сроки выполнения контракта: апрель 2010 – декабрь 2012 г.

Tender can be found here:-
http://www.zakupkiold.gov.ru/Tender/ViewPurchase.aspx?PurchaseId=234622
http://www.zakupkiold.gov.ru/Tender/ViewPurchase.aspx?PurchaseId=728845

[fregate]

@Stan - thank you, but it's a second link that relevant, first one was about creation of ground-based TestBed facilities for LPRE fire testing.

[fregate]

02 Sep 2014 Putin Endorsed preliminary SHLV development

Путин одобрил начало разработки сверхтяжелой ракеты

Президент Владимир Путин одобрил начало разработки сверхтяжелой ракеты грузоподъемностью до 150 тонн, сообщил вице-премьер РФ Дмитрий Рогозин, передает РИА Новости.

"Сегодня можно сказать, что президент дал предварительное добро на начало этих работ (по созданию сверхтяжелой ракеты). Это означает, что после разработки всего семейства ракетоносителей "Ангара" легкого, среднего и тяжелого классов мы перейдем уже к созданию ракетоносителя совершенно нового класса — ни 7, ни 15, ни 25 тонн полезной нагрузки, а 120-150 тонн полезной нагрузки", — заявил Рогозин во вторник журналистам.

Сверхтяжелые ракеты-носители необходимы для вывода космических аппаратов за пределы околоземной орбиты.

Вице-премьер также отметил, что уже сейчас необходимо начать работы по созданию стартового комплекса под сверхтяжелую ракету, хотя сам проект еще не подготовлен и не одобрен президентом и правительством. "Мы без нее (сверхтяжелой ракеты) не обойдемся. Мы должны на рубеже после 2020 года уже выходить на создание вот такого комплекса", — сказал он.

Рогозин добавил, что это "возвращение к тому лучшему, что было в советском опыте". "Сегодня президент через обсуждение вопросов на космодроме поддержал такого рода идею, которая уже связана с перспективной федеральной космической программой. Это одно из принципиальных решений сегодня", — заявил вице-премьер.

[Russian] President Vladimir Putin endorsed preliminary development of Super Heavy Launch Vehicle with LEO payload capability up to 150 tones, announcement made by Deputy Premier Dmitry Rogozin (according to RIA Novosti news agency).
 
"We could reveal today the President endorsed a preliminary development (for SHLV). That means that upon completion of Angara LV Family (that encompass Light, Medium and Heavy class of LV) we would switch our development effort to create a SHLV with LEO payload not limited by the set of 7, 15 and 25 tones but [above and beyond] in range of 120-150 tones." said Rogozin to journalists.

LV of Super Heavy class are necessary to launch spacecrafts beyond Low Earth Orbit (BLEO)

Deputy Premier also noted that [along with preliminary development of SHLV Russia] should commit to create a corresponding launchpad for such LV and such development should be started right now, despite the fact that such projects not yet ready and not endorsed by President and government cabinet. Without it [SHLV] we  would not able to manage [Russian space program]. SHLV and all ground base infrastructure must be ready for a qualifying flight after 2020." - he said.
 
Rogozin also added that would be to "reuse the best parts of the soviet legacy. Today President during discussion of outstanding questions about spaceport [construction progress]  supported this idea, that already should be included in a Federal Space Exploration program. This is one of he critical decisions made today" - said Deputy Premier.   

To rephrase two famous Soviet writers (Il'f and Petrov, "The Golden Calf") "SHLV is not a luxury - it's a mean of BLEO transportation" (C)

[Steven Pietrobon]

That makes four super heavies on the horizon. SLS, CZ-9, SpaceX BFR and now Russian SHLV.

[Danderman]

That makes four super heavies on the horizon. SLS, CZ-9, SpaceX BFR and now Russian SHLV.

Nothing in Putin's comment tells us that Russian HLV development will actually happen. In fact, by stating that HLV work would only start after Angara development completes, Putin is slowing down the HLV program.