Russia to Develop Rocket for New-Generation Manned Spacecraft

[manboy]

Not a new link but I don't believe its been posted

http://danielmarin.blogspot.com/2011/09/algunos-detalles-adicionales-de-la-nave.html

[Danderman]

It's dead, Jim.

[fregate]

Rus M LV program is postponed (meaning cancelled) according to the Head of RSA.
Vostochy would have Soyuz 2 and Angara launch complexes.
Apparently Russian agency realised that there is not enough money for triad (spaceport, LV and manned spacecraft)

[Danderman]

Rus M LV program is postponed (meaning cancelled) according to the Head of RSA.
Vostochy would have Soyuz 2 and Angara launch complexes.
Apparently Russian agency realised that there is not enough money for triad (spaceport, LV and manned spacecraft)

First off, there is no evidence that Angara will be launched from Vostochny in the near future, leaving Soyuz as the only potential LV for the Eastern Cosmodrome.

Good luck launching the new generation manned spacecraft on Soyuz.

[patchfree]

PTS will be probably launched from Vostochny by a soyuz 2.3v rocket or similar evolution from the new 2.1v light version.

PTS will be, as requested by Energia, shrinked to 12-14 T. If necessary, the PTS could be (unmanned) tested on Zenit rocket from Baïkonour while waiting for the new launch pad in Vostochny.

With a single pad Russia will ba able to launch three types of rocket: light, medium and semi-heavy soyuz from its new national space center.

[Danderman]

I guess the Russians are about to experience the Ares/Orion nightmare of ever shrinking LV capability, resulting in multiple redesigns of the spacecraft.

[Patchouli]

I guess the Russians are about to experience the Ares/Orion nightmare of ever shrinking LV capability, resulting in multiple redesigns of the spacecraft.

Might be best to axe PTS just go back to Soyuz-K and Kliper which where designed for a smaller LV in the first place.

I really never understood why they canned/back burnered Kliper back in 2006 only to start over nearly from scratch.
It really was a good design and they could have went to the winged space plane incrementally starting out with the simpler biconic like version first.
I know the ESA backed out of CSTS but LV development is the most expensive part and Soyuz 3 would have been very cheap to develop compared to Rus-M.

It almost seemed like they decided it would be best to just imitate the Americans.

[Downix]

I guess the Russians are about to experience the Ares/Orion nightmare of ever shrinking LV capability, resulting in multiple redesigns of the spacecraft.

Might be best to axe PTS just go back to Soyuz-K and Kliper which where designed for a smaller LV in the first place.

I really never understood why they canned/back burnered Kliper back in 2006 only to start over nearly from scratch.
It really was a good design and they could have went to the winged space plane incrementally starting out with the simpler biconic like version first.
I know the ESA backed out of CSTS but LV development is the most expensive part and Soyuz 3 would have been very cheap to develop compared to Rus-M.

It almost seemed like they decided it would be best to just imitate the Americans.

No, it was corporate competition.  Kliper was being designed by Energia, but Khrunichev got the right political favors together to then push it's TKS derived design, cancelling its competitors design and forcing a new competition.

Russian companies are ruthless. 

[Danderman]

I guess the Russians are about to experience the Ares/Orion nightmare of ever shrinking LV capability, resulting in multiple redesigns of the spacecraft.

Might be best to axe PTS just go back to Soyuz-K and Kliper which where designed for a smaller LV in the first place.

I really never understood why they canned/back burnered Kliper back in 2006 only to start over nearly from scratch.

Klipr was a reaction to the NASA Orbital Space Plane, so when OSP was canceled, Klipr eventually died.

The new spacecraft is a reaction to Orion. If Orion dies, so will PTS.

[Prober]

I guess the Russians are about to experience the Ares/Orion nightmare of ever shrinking LV capability, resulting in multiple redesigns of the spacecraft.

Might be best to axe PTS just go back to Soyuz-K and Kliper which where designed for a smaller LV in the first place.

I really never understood why they canned/back burnered Kliper back in 2006 only to start over nearly from scratch.

Klipr was a reaction to the NASA Orbital Space Plane, so when OSP was canceled, Klipr eventually died.

The new spacecraft is a reaction to Orion. If Orion dies, so will PTS.

the super Soyuz "Zarya" looked like the way forward.
 

[Patchouli]

I guess the Russians are about to experience the Ares/Orion nightmare of ever shrinking LV capability, resulting in multiple redesigns of the spacecraft.

Might be best to axe PTS just go back to Soyuz-K and Kliper which where designed for a smaller LV in the first place.

I really never understood why they canned/back burnered Kliper back in 2006 only to start over nearly from scratch.

Klipr was a reaction to the NASA Orbital Space Plane, so when OSP was canceled, Klipr eventually died.

The new spacecraft is a reaction to Orion. If Orion dies, so will PTS.

the super Soyuz "Zarya" looked like the way forward.
 

I did some searching and it seems Kliper dates back to 2000 so it was not a reaction to OSP.
In this very early art work they considered mounting the lifting body section backwards.
It might have been an attempt to resurrect many of the the concepts of Zarya while correcting some deficiencies in the design.

The change to a winged version vs lifting may have been a reaction to OSP.

Really though it probably would be best for the Russian to ignore the direction of the US space program and do their own thing as that's how Soyuz resulted.
Still the failure of Rus-M could be the opportunity for RKK to get back in the bidding for a next generation vehicle.

I think they probably should have pitched the simpler vehicle and showed evolution to the more advanced versions.

Still looking at Kliper and how it fits so neatly as an evolutionary path for Soyuz I can't see why PTS won I guess it was hoped it would force development of Rus-M.

[Downix]

I seriously think that the Rus-M shutdown will open the door for Energia-K.  From a logistics standpoint, it is a far cleaner fit, and it would soothe some of the emotional issues Russia has currently due to the use of Zenit.  It also fits with the moves, partnerships and discussions Yuzhnoyne has been having globally.

[aquanaut99]

I seriously think that the Rus-M shutdown will open the door for Energia-K.  From a logistics standpoint, it is a far cleaner fit, and it would soothe some of the emotional issues Russia has currently due to the use of Zenit.  It also fits with the moves, partnerships and discussions Yuzhnoyne has been having globally.

Pardon my total ignorance, but what exactly is Energia-K?

[douglas100]

A Russian version of Zenit.

[baldusi]

What can you tell us about the Energia-K? All I've heard was that NPO Energomash said they could develop a new RD-170 derivative, the RD-175 with 1000tnf (9.8MN) of thrust for it. Or an RD-193 for a Soyuz evolution. I'm assuming that would be a 250tnf single chamber engine.
The other proposal was the RD-180V, which, if I'm not mistaken, would be an RD-180 derated to be safe of catastrophic failures if a particle of the biggest spec'd size would get into the gas generator. Apparently, the cleanness ratings used by Russia aren't as good as ULA.
But returning to the Energia-K, if I'm not mistaken, Vostochny has a 3.8mx25m limitation on train transport. And this is a requirement for any prospective LV. Apparently there are other ways of reaching the cosmodrome, but Roscosmos specified that that. So the Zenit tooling would be too wide (3.9m). I still can't understand why would you need 8.33MN of SL thrust for a rocket that's 3.8m wide. The biggest Falcon 9 (the 16tonnes), had just 5.6MN, and weighted 480tonnes at launch, and was already 19.2 times its diameter tall. A 3.8m core of same proportions would have 18% extra volume. But the total T/W would be an even 1.5. Interesting.

[aquanaut99]

A Russian version of Zenit.

Ah, thanks. I've always thought Zenit would be the perfect launcher for the next generation Russian spacecraft, if only there wasn't the little problem of it being built outside Russia...

This would be a perfect solution. Are they actually going ahead?

[Danderman]

A Russian version of Zenit.

Ah, thanks. I've always thought Zenit would be the perfect launcher for the next generation Russian spacecraft, if only there wasn't the little problem of it being built outside Russia...

This would be a perfect solution. Are they actually going ahead?

No. There is no money for new LV, that is why Rus was cancelled.

[Downix]

A Russian version of Zenit.

Ah, thanks. I've always thought Zenit would be the perfect launcher for the next generation Russian spacecraft, if only there wasn't the little problem of it being built outside Russia...

This would be a perfect solution. Are they actually going ahead?

No. There is no money for new LV, that is why Rus was cancelled.

The Energia-K however is not an all new LV, but an integration and tank manufacturing domestic start.  A good number of systems are already built and in service on Zenit, Proton and Soyuz now.  Halfway between to ULA's migration of the Atlas line from Colorado to Alabama and an all new rocket, such as the work needed on Rus.  So, even without the money for a new LV, it still may go ahead anyways.

[Danderman]

The Energia-K however is not an all new LV, but an integration and tank manufacturing domestic start.  A good number of systems are already built and in service on Zenit, Proton and Soyuz now.  Halfway between to ULA's migration of the Atlas line from Colorado to Alabama and an all new rocket, such as the work needed on Rus.  So, even without the money for a new LV, it still may go ahead anyways.

Please compare and contrast your assertions above and the real progress made towards development of Angara, a launch vehicle that uses existing engines (or derivatives of existing engines), standard avionics boxes, and has available tankage. Why should Energia-K be available in a shorter period of time than Angara? Note that Angara started out more than 15 years ago, and has still not flown.

[Kaputnik]

I'm probably not the only person struggling to follow the various proposals coming out of Russia. Would this be an accurate synopsis:

- Krunichev (current builder of Rokot and Proton) are developing the RD-191 based Angara, and are funded and relatively on-schedule.
- Progress (current builder of Soyuz launcher) were proposing the Rus-M launchers but this is now not going ahead.
- Energia (current builder of manned and unmanned spacecraft) are proposing an NK-33 based plan to evolve the Soyuz launcher into a more powerful and versatile system. Some of the steps for this have already been taken but just how far the whole plan will go is uncertain.

Is that about where we stand at the moment?

Edit- Energia are also proposing their 'Energia K' as a Zenit-clone.