Author Topic: Russia to Develop Rocket for New-Generation Manned Spacecraft (Read 256062 times)

fregate · « **Reply #200 on:** 01/26/2011 11:31 am »

"Show me the money" (C) Jerry Maguire - price tag for development of launch vehicle "RUS M", family of new generation space transportation vehicles as well as a new spaceport infrastructure is set to 180 billion rubles till 2015.
For current exchange rate it approx. US$ 6.04 billion.

kollapsderwellenfunktion · « **Reply #201 on:** 01/26/2011 06:57 pm »

the russian space agency has a budget of about 3.8 billion $ this year. Vostochny cosmodrome could also be funded as infrastructure. it's quite difficult to get the numbers right, because things are funded by different items in the budget....

putin just said the work at vostochny must start in 2011, and there are about 800 million $ earmarked for vostochny over the next 3 years.

it would be great to have an overview of space related expenses - there are many black holes for example in the defence budget.

fregate · « **Reply #202 on:** 04/14/2011 08:33 am »

Rus M LV Base Configuration:

Heavy versions of RUS M LV Family:
Slides from TsSKB presentation, Kaluga (Apr 2011)

Downix · « **Reply #203 on:** 04/14/2011 02:31 pm »

Looks very AJAX-y

Danderman · « **Reply #204 on:** 04/14/2011 06:24 pm »

I am waiting for someone to suggest crossfeed for this one. I guess if NASA were to design a system with crossfeed, then ESA and the Russians would follow along, with JAXA a little later.

Downix · « **Reply #205 on:** 04/14/2011 06:31 pm »

Quote from: Danderman on 04/14/2011 06:24 pm

I am waiting for someone to suggest crossfeed for this one. I guess if NASA were to design a system with crossfeed, then ESA and the Russians would follow along, with JAXA a little later.

I can understand why not to persue crossfeed. I studied it a bit when working on AJAX, for the Delta IV varient. I realized quickly how much of a challenge it would be. It would increase costs dramatically for little gain, due to the complexities. Instead of a single staging event per booster, you're now dealing with four. One for each of the fuel lines, one for the control line, and the booster staging itself. If any one of them has an issue, your rocket fails to reach orbit. And it only benefits for more rockets, single sticks would have no benefit but would have a weight penalty for it.

If it is pulled off, great. It is just a severe challenge to pull off. Easier to improve isp for payload performance.

Moe Grills · « **Reply #206 on:** 04/14/2011 08:22 pm »

Quote from: fregate on 04/14/2011 08:33 am

Rus M LV Base Configuration:

Heavy versions of RUS M LV Family:

Slides from TsSKB presentation, Kaluga (Apr 2011)

fregate? The largest booster shown on the rightside of the illustrations
has a mass (Russian word is 'macca') of 2472 metric tons.
Meaning? It must have a thrust of at least 3000 metric tons (6.6 million Ibf)...That puts it in the category of the Saturn-V.
Maybe Mr Putin is serious about that moonbase project afterall.
That dream/plan may have traction indeed.

Certainly the Russians are now capable of sending an upgraded Soyuz, with one or two paying passengers to circle around the moon and return.
All 'someone' needs is to pay 150 billion dollars for the privilege of buying a seat on such a modestly upgraded Soyuz. (apparently an anonymous billionaire has).
Oh! And the booster for such a Soyuz? The present day Protons, with
(Fregat? BlokD?) upperstages.

Silmfeanor · « **Reply #207 on:** 04/14/2011 08:41 pm »

Quote from: Moe Grills on 04/14/2011 08:22 pm

All 'someone' needs is to pay 150 billion dollars for the privilege of buying a seat on such a modestly upgraded Soyuz. (apparently an anonymous billionaire has).

that should be 150 million dollars, If I remember correctly.
Perhaps it could make for some nice "Earth Rising" photographs. I hope someone pays for it.

grdja · « **Reply #208 on:** 04/14/2011 10:47 pm »

RKA and especially the associated private corporations have been drawing huge rockets, moon bases and space ships for years. Only difference to NASA is that they don't spend billions on them. Both never produce anything, of course.

fregate · « **Reply #209 on:** 04/15/2011 01:39 am »

To Moe Grills:
Please have a look at another topic about New Generation Manned Transportation Vehicle on this forum - in order to reach a LLO a PTK-L spacecraft is proposed (mass 26.5 tonnes) with a dedicated cryogenic booster (for TLI and LOI, with dropable propellant tanks, mass 43.5 tonnes), therefore a minimalistic launch vehicle to reach a Lunar orbit should have a LEO payload capability of 60 tonnes.
BTW - funding for medium LV RUS M (LEO payload capability is 23.2 tonnes) is provided to Russian Space Agency (at least for technical project).

Danderman · « **Reply #210 on:** 04/15/2011 05:09 am »

Quote from: fregate on 04/15/2011 01:39 am

BTW - funding for medium LV RUS M (LEO payload capability is 23.2 tonnes) is provided to Russian Space Agency (at least for technical project).

which means that the Russian government has provided their space agency with funding for Rus M Medium through preliminary design. Its unknown whether Roskosmos has actually transmitted this funding to the prime contractor(s) yet.

A lot of the recent vaporous Russian designs were not actually authorized by the space agency, or were prepared in response to competitions that did not result in contract awards.

Downix · « **Reply #211 on:** 04/15/2011 05:39 am »

Quote from: Moe Grills on 04/14/2011 08:22 pm

fregate? The largest booster shown on the rightside of the illustrations
has a mass (Russian word is 'macca') of 2472 metric tons.
Meaning? It must have a thrust of at least 3000 metric tons (6.6 million Ibf)...That puts it in the category of the Saturn-V.
Maybe Mr Putin is serious about that moonbase project afterall.
That dream/plan may have traction indeed.

8 RD-180's plus 4 RD-0120 gives you 9.2 million lbf.

That good enough for you?

(Incidentally, that also means that AJAX has more thrust, at 9.3 million)

zaitcev · « **Reply #212 on:** 04/15/2011 05:44 am »

Quote from: Moe Grills on 04/14/2011 08:22 pm

Certainly the Russians are now capable of sending an upgraded Soyuz, with one or two paying passengers to circle around the moon and return.
All 'someone' needs is to pay 150 billion dollars for the privilege of buying a seat on such a modestly upgraded Soyuz. (apparently an anonymous billionaire has).
Oh! And the booster for such a Soyuz? The present day Protons, with
(Fregat? BlokD?) upperstages.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no viable mission architecture unless significantly upgraded Blok-D or Briz are made available. The best I saw was barely closing without any margin (using Briz), and required significant development of the repurposed Briz. There were a number of other "small" items, such as lack of deep-space communications on Soyuz. So it's far from "certain".

fregate · « **Reply #213 on:** 04/15/2011 05:45 am »

Quote from: Danderman on 04/15/2011 05:09 am

Quote from: fregate on 04/15/2011 01:39 am
BTW - funding for medium LV RUS M (LEO payload capability is 23.2 tonnes) is provided to Russian Space Agency (at least for technical project).

which means that the Russian government has provided their space agency with funding for Rus M Medium through preliminary design. Its unknown whether Roskosmos has actually transmitted this funding to the prime contractor(s) yet.

A lot of the recent vaporous Russian designs were not actually authorized by the space agency, or were prepared in response to competitions that did not result in contract awards.

For a change there were 2 tenders from Roskosmos for Preliminary and Technical Design of the Rus M LV (medium class launcher with extended payload capability).
Money had been allocated to the consortium of winners:
* TsSKB Progress (Samara) System integration, second stage development and production
* Makeev KB Mash (Miass) First stage development and production
* RKK Energia (Korolev) Man-rated version of LV

Downix · « **Reply #214 on:** 04/15/2011 05:52 am »

Quote from: zaitcev on 04/15/2011 05:44 am

Quote from: Moe Grills on 04/14/2011 08:22 pm
Certainly the Russians are now capable of sending an upgraded Soyuz, with one or two paying passengers to circle around the moon and return.
All 'someone' needs is to pay 150 billion dollars for the privilege of buying a seat on such a modestly upgraded Soyuz. (apparently an anonymous billionaire has).
Oh! And the booster for such a Soyuz? The present day Protons, with
(Fregat? BlokD?) upperstages.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no viable mission architecture unless significantly upgraded Blok-D or Briz are made available. The best I saw was barely closing without any margin (using Briz), and required significant development of the repurposed Briz. There were a number of other "small" items, such as lack of deep-space communications on Soyuz. So it's far from "certain".

And lo and behold, an upgraded Blok-D is now available, a stretched model. In addition, a new hydrolox upper stage is in late development, designated 11S861-03.

Danderman · « **Reply #215 on:** 04/15/2011 05:58 am »

Quote from: zaitcev on 04/15/2011 05:44 am

To the best of my knowledge, there is no viable mission architecture unless significantly upgraded Blok-D or Briz are made available. The best I saw was barely closing without any margin (using Briz), and required significant development of the repurposed Briz. There were a number of other "small" items, such as lack of deep-space communications on Soyuz. So it's far from "certain".

Using a dual launch architecture, there is no requirement to upgrade either Briz-M or Blok-DM for lunar flyby missions.

As for the small items, like the lack of deep space comm on Soyuz, well, that is indeed a small item, but one that has been previously solved.

fregate · « **Reply #216 on:** 04/15/2011 06:02 am »

Quote from: Danderman on 04/15/2011 05:58 am

Quote from: zaitcev on 04/15/2011 05:44 am
To the best of my knowledge, there is no viable mission architecture unless significantly upgraded Blok-D or Briz are made available. The best I saw was barely closing without any margin (using Briz), and required significant development of the repurposed Briz. There were a number of other "small" items, such as lack of deep-space communications on Soyuz. So it's far from "certain".

Using a dual launch architecture, there is no requirement to upgrade either Briz-M or Blok-DM for lunar flyby missions.

As for the small items, like the lack of deep space comm on Soyuz, well, that is indeed a small item, but one that has been previously solved.

What about randevouz system and passive docking RDU for either Briz-M or Blok-DM for lunar flyby missions?
And please do not forget about Thermo Shield for Soyuz DM on the way back!

Danderman · « **Reply #217 on:** 04/15/2011 02:10 pm »

Quote from: fregate on 04/15/2011 06:02 am

What about randevouz system and passive docking RDU for either Briz-M or Blok-DM for lunar flyby missions?
And please do not forget about Thermo Shield for Soyuz DM on the way back!

You are 100% correct.

The Lunar Express system requires a small docking adapter to be carried by the Proton upper stage. This docking adapter and associated systems would fly aboard a "mission module" that would be the Proton payload, so that the upper stage modifications are eliminated. The mission module carries a Kurs-P rendezvous radar, a passive docking adapter, a long distance communications system, a toilet, and provides additional habitable volume for the flight.

The major modification to Soyuz would be the thickened heat shield, about 200 kg additional mass.

You can see a presentation on the Lunar Express system at:

http://www.constellationservices.com/Lunar_ExpressSM_system_brief_NewSpace2006_20_July_2006.pdf

pr read about it in Russian at:

http://www.kp.ru/daily/23335/31058/

fregate · « **Reply #218 on:** 04/15/2011 02:14 pm »

Let's open a new topic "Soyuz Moon fly by", IMHO this one should be dedicated to new generation LV.

Danderman · « **Reply #219 on:** 04/15/2011 08:05 pm »

Quote from: fregate on 04/15/2011 02:14 pm

Let's open a new topic "Soyuz Moon fly by", IMHO this one should be dedicated to new generation LV.

Better yet, there is an existing thread or two about this:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=22985.0

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=13834.0

Since I came up with this concept many years ago, I do like to accumulate all the credit for it that I can!