Author Topic: Russia to Develop Rocket for New-Generation Manned Spacecraft  (Read 262812 times)

Offline Stan Black

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3132
  • Liked: 377
  • Likes Given: 229
So, in my opinion, the future is bleak for Angara 1.1 and Soyuz 3 and
not much brighter for Rus-MS (at least in its current form).

Also against Angara 1.1 is that a different Briz upper stage is required because the URM1 1st stage has no avionics.

Overall a good asessment Major Tom!
« Last Edit: 11/14/2009 12:23 pm by Stan Black »

Offline major_tom

  • Member
  • Posts: 55
  • far above the Moon
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
So, in my opinion, the future is bleak for Angara 1.1 and Soyuz 3 and
not much brighter for Rus-MS (at least in its current form).

Also against Angara 1.1 is that a different Briz upper stage is required because the URM1 1st stage has no avionics.

Overall a good asessment Major Tom!

Thanks Stan, I agree that it is an additional disadvantage for the Angara 1.1.
You also touch on a point (the available upper stages for each rocket) that
I didn't take into account, and that could somewhat change the odds
for each system in the cases where they have similar capabilities.

I'll leave it to you to make that analysis. :)
Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do

Offline patchfree

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 325
  • webmaster and russian space fan
  • Poitiers, France
    • kosmosnews.fr, l'actualité spatiale russe en français
  • Liked: 8
  • Likes Given: 10
IMHO, another key point is the balance between the two manufacters (and sub-contracting companies): Roscosmos is always making some arrangements to maintain activities of the main space russian companies.

So the question is not only a matter of qality-performance/cost ratio but also of employement in Russia. Never forget that almost all the russian big companies are public ones (or a blend of public and private) and the aim is also to manage employement.

In addition, the production capacities are not expandable in the two main rocket companies (TsSKB Progres and Khrunitchev). So the load has to be judiciously distributed between each actor.

Patch
http://kosmosnews.fr l'actualité spatiale russe en français

Offline zaitcev

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 581
    • mee.nu:zaitcev:space
  • Liked: 3
  • Likes Given: 3
The core booster is short in length, plus the core variant only has 6.5 ton capability to LEO, which means that it can't replace Soyuz for crewed launches; I don't know if this is due to politics, but it would not seem logical to have a 7 ton Soyuz LV and a 6.5 ton Rus in joint operations, they would cannibalize each other's markets.
Please keep in mind that Soyuz the spaceship is not going to be flown on Rus-M. This function is intended for PTK NP spaceship. It's not at all obvious to me if facilities designed to process PTK NP can be easily adapted to process Soyuz, should such a need arise.

-- Pete

{Update: Just read in Dmitry's article about Rus-MS, duh... So, someone was thinking about Soyuz on Rus at least.}
« Last Edit: 11/16/2009 02:13 am by zaitcev »

Offline zaitcev

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 581
    • mee.nu:zaitcev:space
  • Liked: 3
  • Likes Given: 3
- Soyuz 1 - Angara 1.1 will be no more than a test vehicle, Soyuz-1 has
  potentialy better performance, is most likely cheaper and indications
  are it will be ready sooner than the lightest Angara.
  Will substitute Rokot and Kosmos.
Soyuz-1 is probably dead even in the short run due to limited supply of NK-33-1 engines (unless they re-engine it with RD-191).

Quote
- Angara 5 - See above in Rus-MP. Has slightly better performance than
  Rus-MP and offers some other advantages for cargo lifting
  (simpler,cheaper, earlier).
  The disadvantages of Rus-MP for the cargo role make Angara 5 the most
  likely substitute of Proton.
Well duh, that's what it's for.

Quote
So, in my opinion, the future is bleak for Angara 1.1 and 7, Soyuz 3 and
not much brighter for Rus-MS (at least in its current form).
We shall see.

-- Pete

Offline Downix

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7082
  • Liked: 22
  • Likes Given: 1
- Soyuz 1 - Angara 1.1 will be no more than a test vehicle, Soyuz-1 has
  potentialy better performance, is most likely cheaper and indications
  are it will be ready sooner than the lightest Angara.
  Will substitute Rokot and Kosmos.
Soyuz-1 is probably dead even in the short run due to limited supply of NK-33-1 engines (unless they re-engine it with RD-191).
Um, the NK-33 is under manufacture by Aerojet under the name AJ-28, you are aware, yes?
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline hop

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3352
  • Liked: 553
  • Likes Given: 891
Um, the NK-33 is under manufacture by Aerojet under the name AJ-28, you are aware, yes?
Um no, they are definitely not manufacturing them. They are reworking old engines from that were mothballed when the Soviet N1 project was canceled. Aerojet reportedly has 30+ engines they purchased in the 90s. The Russians still have some too.

There has been talk of resuming production, either in the US or Russia, but AFAIK it's only talk. Aerojet has enough engines that they only need to think about this if Taurus II is reasonably successful, or another customer is found. In any case, there's no way Russia would buy engines from a US company, although having Aerojet as a potential customer might provide some impetus to restart production.

Offline major_tom

  • Member
  • Posts: 55
  • far above the Moon
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Soyuz-1 is probably dead even in the short run due to limited supply of NK-33-1 engines (unless they re-engine it with RD-191).

I think some sort of production restart is envisioned.
Not one, but two Progress projects are dependent of the availability of this engine.
Beside Soyuz-1, Progress are busy developing Soyuz-2.3.
It makes no sense they are spending money on these 2 projects to run
out of engines after they barely start production...

Quote
- Angara 5 - See above in Rus-MP. [...]
  The disadvantages of Rus-MP for the cargo role make Angara 5 the most
  likely substitute of Proton.
Quote
Well duh, that's what it's for.

Yes, that was Angara 5 role way back when it was conceived.
But back then, there wasn't another russian booster with roughly
the same performance being developed, and potentialy capable of
assuming the same role.
« Last Edit: 11/16/2009 08:46 am by major_tom »
Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do

Offline Danderman

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10324
  • Liked: 720
  • Likes Given: 734
Um, the NK-33 is under manufacture by Aerojet under the name AJ-28, you are aware, yes?
Um no, they are definitely not manufacturing them. They are reworking old engines from that were mothballed when the Soviet N1 project was canceled. Aerojet reportedly has 30+ engines they purchased in the 90s. The Russians still have some too.

There has been talk of resuming production, either in the US or Russia, but AFAIK it's only talk. Aerojet has enough engines that they only need to think about this if Taurus II is reasonably successful, or another customer is found. In any case, there's no way Russia would buy engines from a US company, although having Aerojet as a potential customer might provide some impetus to restart production.

http://www.samru.ru/bisnes/news/47847.html

A news story about a contract between the Progress plant and a rocket engine producer for NK-33 engines for the Soyuz-1 launch vehicle. Of course, this means that Soyuz-1 is doomed.


Offline Dmitry_V_home

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 518
  • City of Toglliatti, Samara region, Russia
  • Liked: 678
  • Likes Given: 138
It is interesting that the configuration of Soyuz-1 is not defined till now definitively. For comparison:
http://www.samspace.ru/RN/souz_1.htm
and
« Last Edit: 11/16/2009 03:33 pm by Dmitry_V_home »

Offline Nickolai

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 318
  • Liked: 24
  • Likes Given: 5
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20091118/156889970.html

Apparently the defense ministry has reduced the amount of funding going to launch pad construction for Angara. Perminov says the development of the rocket itself is on schedule.

Overall they say they need $290 million over 3 years to finish the rocket.

Offline fregate

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 939
  • Space Association of Australia
  • Melbourne Australia
  • Liked: 144
  • Likes Given: 14
Article in Novosti Kosmonavtiki magazine, No 11, 2009
New LV from MAKS-2009 ("Ракетные новинки МАКС-2009" by in Russian only)
by I.Afanasiev & D.Vorontsov (a.k.a Dmitry_V_home on this forum)
http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/content/numbers/322/24.shtml
Thank you Dmitriy for a good article:

« Last Edit: 04/20/2011 03:15 pm by Ronsmytheiii »
"Selene, the Moon. Selenginsk, an old town in Siberia: moon-rocket  town" Vladimir Nabokov

Offline fregate

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 939
  • Space Association of Australia
  • Melbourne Australia
  • Liked: 144
  • Likes Given: 14
Thanks Siberian Tiger from Orbital forum for this photo from MAKS 2009
"Selene, the Moon. Selenginsk, an old town in Siberia: moon-rocket  town" Vladimir Nabokov

Offline fregate

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 939
  • Space Association of Australia
  • Melbourne Australia
  • Liked: 144
  • Likes Given: 14
Thanks Bol'shoy from NK Russian forum - Rus' M reconstruction:
« Last Edit: 04/20/2011 03:16 pm by Ronsmytheiii »
"Selene, the Moon. Selenginsk, an old town in Siberia: moon-rocket  town" Vladimir Nabokov

Offline Serafeim

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 299
  • Greece
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/ptk_np.html


Quote
  Lopota did not elaborate, when RKK Energia would have to make a commitment to one launch facility or another and which launch vehicle would be used for possible missions from Baikonur. The Rus-M rocket, whose development officially started in 2009, was specifically designed to support the new manned space program and it was to be based exclusively in Vostochny, but not in Baikonur.

Therefore, even for temporary missions from the Kazakh launch site, yet another newly developed vehicle or an existing rocket would have to be adapted to carry the new-generation spacecraft, known as PTK NP, into orbit. The Ukrainian-built Zenit launcher or a similar Russian-built vehicle would be a likely candidate, as it has the payload capacity of up to 13 tons, needed to lift the future spacecraft and the Zenit has an operational launch pad in Baikonur.

The Soyuz rockets, which currently launch seven-ton Russian manned spacecraft from Baikonur, are not powerful enough to carry future ships. Although the 2015 launch date for the PTK NP, was announced back in 2007, Lopota's statement was the first to disclose the possibility of using Baikonur, as a launch site for the new-generation spacecraft. Previously, Russian prime-minister Vladimir Putin, admitted that the construction of a brand-new launch facility in Vostochny in Russia's remote far-eastern region was more difficult than originally expected.

Unofficial reports also said that the completion of the launch center by 2015 was impossible due to lack of funds. The Russian government has planned the development of a launch site for the manned space program on the Russian territory ever since the disintegration of the Soviet Union left Baikonur in the newly independent republic of Kazakhstan.

Previously, Russian industry sources cited the possibility of adapting the veteran Soyuz spacecraft for possible lunar missions, in case current efforts to develop PTK NP stall. A three-seat Soyuz first flew in 1966 and was originally intended to beat US Apollo missions to the Moon. In the past several years, Russian space officials have promised to prepare for possible manned lunar missions within a timeframe of the NASA effort to return to the Moon around 2020.


I bet the russian capsule will be just a competitor of Dragon...
but maybe is moon capable maybe not...



look here.. http://www.space-travel.com/reports/Russia_Set_To_Launch_Manned_Spacecraft_In_2017_999.html

it has different information..
I dont believe it..the first maybeis closer to   the true..Russia has not enough money for Orion competitor ,or new spacecenter..
« Last Edit: 04/20/2011 03:16 pm by Ronsmytheiii »

Offline Danderman

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10324
  • Liked: 720
  • Likes Given: 734
Looks like Mercury Redstone.


Offline Patchouli

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4490
  • Liked: 254
  • Likes Given: 457
I find it very surprising Russia chose to make a new LV vs simply uprate Soyuz and go with Kliper.

The more complex Kliper vehicle might have been the cheaper route since it really did not need a new LV or launch site.
All it required was the addition of a hydrogen upper stage to the existing Soyuz U.

This would include Soyuz-K which also would use the uprated LV.
Soyuz K's decent vehicle also would have been used for lunar missions while a habitation/resource module would have been derived from Kliper's pressure hull.

I guess a lot of their recent decisions like the US's are more political then technical.

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/kliper.html
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/soyuz_acts.html
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/soyuz2_3_lv.html

Killing Kliper and Soyuz 2-3/Soyuz 3 is the kind of stuff I figure would land somebody in Siberia since those programs were so far along.

I do know if I was the president of Russia that is exactly what I'd do to the people who decided to copy the actions of NASA's constellation program when it's clearly not the right direction.
« Last Edit: 01/27/2010 11:26 pm by Patchouli »

Offline fregate

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 939
  • Space Association of Australia
  • Melbourne Australia
  • Liked: 144
  • Likes Given: 14
Kliper's Swan Song:
« Last Edit: 01/31/2010 06:08 am by fregate »
"Selene, the Moon. Selenginsk, an old town in Siberia: moon-rocket  town" Vladimir Nabokov

Offline fregate

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 939
  • Space Association of Australia
  • Melbourne Australia
  • Liked: 144
  • Likes Given: 14
LV RUS-M from NK forum:
"Selene, the Moon. Selenginsk, an old town in Siberia: moon-rocket  town" Vladimir Nabokov

Offline Danderman

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10324
  • Liked: 720
  • Likes Given: 734
With all the PowerPoints that Roskosmos has generated for their Orion copy, now they probably feel sadder about the demise of Constellation than most people here. Their problem now is that the diffuse nature of NASA's commercial acquisition plan is going to make it tough for Roskosmos to figure out what to copy. Should they go with Dragon clones, or maybe Cygnus copies? Or maybe they can figure out whatever Blue Origin is going to fly to orbit, and make PowerPoints of that.


Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
1