Ukraine’s Yuzhnoye Coming to the Cape?

[mr. mark]

It looks like the Ukrainian Rocket maker is looking at coming to the cape...
http://www.parabolicarc.com/2011/05/27/ukrainian-rocket-fly-florida/

[Jason1701]

I'm not too hopeful. It sounds like a PowerPoint rocket family.

Response to Danderman: from the limited information I've seen, I don't think Excalibur has any more chance of getting to space than this family. I'd love to be proved wrong.

Whether the company has done much development work on the rocket is unclear. There is no additional information on the website other than a single description page. The Mayak page on Astronautix.com indicates that the rocket was proposed in 2005 but that no funding was forthcoming from the Ukrainian government at the time. A search on the website of the Ukrainian space agency turned up no results.

[Danderman]

The flicker of hope is that the rocket is intended for use by Excalibur Almaz for space tourism.

[Downix]

I'm not too hopeful. It sounds like a PowerPoint rocket family.

Response to Danderman: from the limited information I've seen, I don't think Excalibur has any more chance of getting to space than this family. I'd love to be proved wrong.

I see somewhat different.  The first stage is to be flown later this year, it looks similar, if not identical, to the Taurus II's.  The engines in these photos if you study closely are identical in size and shape to the AJ-26, which is used on the Taurus II.  The Upper Stage looks to be the same as the Zenit's, but with the RD-8 instead of the RD-120.

[Skylab]

This is probably about the Taurus II firstly, if you look at this press release:
http://www.yuzhnoye.com/index.php?idD=80&lang=en&id=124&path=News/News_e
No official news about any other projects from them.

[Salo]

http://www.yuzhnoye.com/index.php?id=29&path=Aerospace%20Technology/Launch%20Vehicles/Mayak/Mayak_e&lang=en

[Downix]

This is probably about the Taurus II firstly, if you look at this press release:
http://www.yuzhnoye.com/index.php?idD=80&lang=en&id=124&path=News/News_e
No official news about any other projects from them.

Mayak is based on the Cyclone-4/Tsyklon-4 & Zenit chassis, or rather, it *is* the Cyclone/Zenit chassis.  Yuzhnoye appears to be consolidating their manufacturing down to a standardized form which can then be "dialed" to the exact needs.  Taurus II is utilizing the same exact tooling.  The difference between them is the engine and fuel configurations.  There is plenty of news on the Cyclone-4 if you look for Brazilian rocket news.

From appearances, it looks as if the Mayak is utilizing the AJ-26, or a similar configuration of engine.  It is clearly not the RD-17* family, would not fit with the particulars of this layout.  Yuzhnoye does make engines, although none in this thrust category.  It is possible that they are trying to develop one, of course.

[Downix]

http://www.yuzhnoye.com/index.php?id=29&path=Aerospace%20Technology/Launch%20Vehicles/Mayak/Mayak_e&lang=en

This fits perfectly with the performance profile I see with using an engine configuration such as paired AJ-26.  Other engines which this would fit the profile of would include two YF-100 or a single RD-180.

[Danderman]

Cyclone 4 uses 3 meter tooling, whereas Zenit and Taurus II are 3.8 meters in diameter, so its not the same chassis.  Mayak may use the 3.8 meter tooling, but its avionics would be different from Taurus II, and possibly different from the Russian Biser used by Zenit.

The largest LOX/kerosene engine produced by Yuzhmash is the RD-120; four of those may power the first stage of the larger Mayaks. The other possibility is a magical conversion of the RD-2XX engines to kerosene.

[Downix]

Cyclone 4 uses 3 meter tooling, whereas Zenit and Taurus II are 3.8 meters in diameter, so its not the same chassis.  Mayak may use the 3.8 meter tooling, but its avionics would be different from Taurus II, and possibly different from the Russian Biser used by Zenit.

The largest LOX/kerosene engine produced by Yuzhmash is the RD-120; four of those may power the first stage of the larger Mayaks. The other possibility is a magical conversion of the RD-2XX engines to kerosene.

I've found both 3m and 3.9m listed for the Cyclone-4. 

And not necessarily a new engine beyond what they make already.  We don't know what fuel this is using, do we?  It could be a hypergolic for all we know.

[Prober]

This is probably about the Taurus II firstly, if you look at this press release:
http://www.yuzhnoye.com/index.php?idD=80&lang=en&id=124&path=News/News_e
No official news about any other projects from them.

Mayak is based on the Cyclone-4/Tsyklon-4 & Zenit chassis, or rather, it *is* the Cyclone/Zenit chassis.  Yuzhnoye appears to be consolidating their manufacturing down to a standardized form which can then be "dialed" to the exact needs.  Taurus II is utilizing the same exact tooling.  The difference between them is the engine and fuel configurations.  There is plenty of news on the Cyclone-4 if you look for Brazilian rocket news.

From appearances, it looks as if the Mayak is utilizing the AJ-26, or a similar configuration of engine.  It is clearly not the RD-17* family, would not fit with the particulars of this layout.  Yuzhnoye does make engines, although none in this thrust category.  It is possible that they are trying to develop one, of course.

Its very possible they could mfg the AJ-26 or a new engine of their own design using the same type of technology.   I found a history of them going back to the early zenit w/AJ-26.   The two companies seem to be very well rounded with a space history and have alot of stuff on the shelf.
 
It would be very good business for them to set up shop in the cape as they are mostly a supplier to Russia who has plans to replace all parts with Russian produced only.

[Prober]

I found their history a great read:
http://www.yuzhnoye.com/?id=13&path=about_company/history/development_of_company/development_of_company_e&lang=en

Could be said a little of the early work of Von Braun and Sergey Korolev lives in this company.

[Danderman]

Cyclone 4 uses 3 meter tooling, whereas Zenit and Taurus II are 3.8 meters in diameter, so its not the same chassis.  Mayak may use the 3.8 meter tooling, but its avionics would be different from Taurus II, and possibly different from the Russian Biser used by Zenit.

The largest LOX/kerosene engine produced by Yuzhmash is the RD-120; four of those may power the first stage of the larger Mayaks. The other possibility is a magical conversion of the RD-2XX engines to kerosene.

I've found both 3m and 3.9m listed for the Cyclone-4. 

And not necessarily a new engine beyond what they make already.  We don't know what fuel this is using, do we?  It could be a hypergolic for all we know.

There is no part of the Cyclone 4 greater in diameter than 3.0 meters, except for the payload fairing. There is no part of Zenit smaller than 3.8 meters. The tooling for the two systems are very different.  You may be interested to know that I have seen Cyclones and Zenits being built in Dneprpetrovsk.

Also, Yuzhnoye's engine testing systems cannot accommodate any liquid fueled engine above 120 tons of thrust. Therefore, I assume that the 90 ton thrust RD-120 would be their preferred engine. Plus, the base Mayak is known to use the RD-120 engine:

http://www.spaceandtech.com/digest/sd2001-20/sd2001-20-004.shtml

Google is your friend!

[Downix]

This is probably about the Taurus II firstly, if you look at this press release:
http://www.yuzhnoye.com/index.php?idD=80&lang=en&id=124&path=News/News_e
No official news about any other projects from them.

Mayak is based on the Cyclone-4/Tsyklon-4 & Zenit chassis, or rather, it *is* the Cyclone/Zenit chassis.  Yuzhnoye appears to be consolidating their manufacturing down to a standardized form which can then be "dialed" to the exact needs.  Taurus II is utilizing the same exact tooling.  The difference between them is the engine and fuel configurations.  There is plenty of news on the Cyclone-4 if you look for Brazilian rocket news.

From appearances, it looks as if the Mayak is utilizing the AJ-26, or a similar configuration of engine.  It is clearly not the RD-17* family, would not fit with the particulars of this layout.  Yuzhnoye does make engines, although none in this thrust category.  It is possible that they are trying to develop one, of course.

Its very possible they could mfg the AJ-26 or a new engine of their own design using the same type of technology.   I found a history of them going back to the early zenit w/AJ-26.   The two companies seem to be very well rounded with a space history and have alot of stuff on the shelf.
 
It would be very good business for them to set up shop in the cape as they are mostly a supplier to Russia who has plans to replace all parts with Russian produced only.

Precisely, positioning themselves in good graces with the US and other countries such as Brazil will help them a lot in the long term.

[DARPA-86]

It will be difficult to get anything out of the Ukraine - due to the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.

[Downix]

It will be difficult to get anything out of the Ukraine - due to the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.

Now this makes no sense to me.  How does a company exporting a product to another country have anything to do with an anti-bribery law?

[Prober]

Cyclone 4 uses 3 meter tooling, whereas Zenit and Taurus II are 3.8 meters in diameter, so its not the same chassis.  Mayak may use the 3.8 meter tooling, but its avionics would be different from Taurus II, and possibly different from the Russian Biser used by Zenit.

The largest LOX/kerosene engine produced by Yuzhmash is the RD-120; four of those may power the first stage of the larger Mayaks. The other possibility is a magical conversion of the RD-2XX engines to kerosene.

I've found both 3m and 3.9m listed for the Cyclone-4. 

And not necessarily a new engine beyond what they make already.  We don't know what fuel this is using, do we?  It could be a hypergolic for all we know.

from everything i've read thus far they seem to be going Lox/kero, they call it enviromential frendly.
 
Have confirmed also they have the tooling onsite as the prime mfg of the RD-120 two models.  This info came from the NPO russian site.
 
 

[DARPA-86]

It will be difficult to get anything out of the Ukraine - due to the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.

Now this makes no sense to me.  How does a company exporting a product to another country have anything to do with an anti-bribery law?

Because said export products still have to move off the dock.

Every major player in the US knows how business has to be conducted over there, (as well as a dozen other nations) and how the 1998 revisions to this law apply.  You hear more about it in the context of US companies trying to export, and paying to play (i.e. HP and their computer deal) in that region - but it spreads across several industries - and both directions on the business deal.  Also these firms are not Wal-Mart, they are not just looking for cheap imports - "I buy yours today with the understanding you give me a shot to make it back tomorrow when you go shopping tomorrow with the money I just spent with you."  Most major firms are looking at emerging markets and new business opportunities.

Let's say you have a good thing going in your US based business selling rocket widgets here in the states, often for rockets launched from government facilities - if not outright carrying government payloads.  Then these same widgets (or engines, or entire rockets) start to come in from overseas and cut into your sales.  In order to stay in business and preserve your profit margain, you want a level playing field and are going to use whatever means are at your disposal.

ITAR in this discipline, is what allows you to peek under the covers and see who is doing what with whom, FCPA is the club with which you drive off the would be suitor and allows you to continue to consumate the on-going relationship.

[Jim]

It will be difficult to get anything out of the Ukraine - due to the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.

Now this makes no sense to me.  How does a company exporting a product to another country have anything to do with an anti-bribery law?

Because said export products still have to move off the dock.

Every major player in the US knows how business has to be conducted over there, (as well as a dozen other nations) and how the 1998 revisions to this law apply.  You hear more about it in the context of US companies trying to export, and paying to play (i.e. HP and their computer deal) in that region - but it spreads across several industries - and both directions on the business deal.  Also these firms are not Wal-Mart, they are not just looking for cheap imports - "I buy yours today with the understanding you give me a shot to make it back tomorrow when you go shopping tomorrow with the money I just spent with you."  Most major firms are looking at emerging markets and new business opportunities.

Let's say you have a good thing going in your US based business selling rocket widgets here in the states, often for rockets launched from government facilities - if not outright carrying government payloads.  Then these same widgets (or engines, or entire rockets) start to come in from overseas and cut into your sales.  In order to stay in business and preserve your profit margain, you want a level playing field and are going to use whatever means are at your disposal.

ITAR in this discipline, is what allows you to peek under the covers and see who is doing what with whom, FCPA is the club with which you drive off the would be suitor and allows you to continue to consumate the on-going relationship.

Explain Taurus II then

[Downix]

I am curious now, if they're coming to the cape, which LC will they use?