Author Topic: The Shuttle Centaur  (Read 91901 times)

Offline Danderman

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Re: The Shuttle Centaur
« Reply #80 on: 10/19/2013 10:23 PM »
The G Prime (along with the G avionics) went on to be the upperstage for the Titan -IV

Let's see now, Centaur G Prime was a 2 engine Centaur with enlarged prop tanks that fit under a 5 meter payload fairing for Titan IV.

Titan IV was eventually replaced by the current ULA launchers.

There is currently a demand for a larger LH2 upper stage, possibly with larger prop tanks and at least 2 RL-10s.

I understand that the required costs to develop a Centaur G Prime equivalent would be quite high. Why is that?




Offline Jim

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Re: The Shuttle Centaur
« Reply #81 on: 10/20/2013 02:02 AM »

I understand that the required costs to develop a Centaur G Prime equivalent would be quite high. Why is that?


no need for this
The G Prime (along with the G avionics) went on to be the upperstage for the Titan -IV

Let's see now, Centaur G Prime was a 2 engine Centaur with enlarged prop tanks that fit under a 5 meter payload fairing for Titan IV.

Titan IV was eventually replaced by the current ULA launchers.

There is currently a demand for a larger LH2 upper stage, possibly with larger prop tanks and at least 2 RL-10s.

I understand that the required costs to develop a Centaur G Prime equivalent would be quite high. Why is that?


no need for a G Prime equivilent when there is a larger stage available, the 5m DCSS.

Online edkyle99

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Re: The Shuttle Centaur
« Reply #82 on: 10/22/2013 04:01 AM »
The G Prime (along with the G avionics) went on to be the upperstage for the Titan -IV

Let's see now, Centaur G Prime was a 2 engine Centaur with enlarged prop tanks that fit under a 5 meter payload fairing for Titan IV.

Titan IV was eventually replaced by the current ULA launchers.

There is currently a demand for a larger LH2 upper stage, possibly with larger prop tanks and at least 2 RL-10s.

I understand that the required costs to develop a Centaur G Prime equivalent would be quite high. Why is that?
Centaur G-Prime wasn't as large as it seems in our memories.  The current Atlas V Centaur stage holds almost as much propellant as Centaur G-Prime.  So does the 4-meter Delta IV upper stage.  The 5-meter Delta IV stage holds 1.35 times as much propellant as the old fat Shuttle Centaur.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 10/22/2013 04:01 AM by edkyle99 »

Offline DaveS

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Re: The Shuttle Centaur
« Reply #83 on: 04/01/2014 01:33 AM »
A document dug up by Graham2001 on NTRS: Space Station Experiment Definition: Long-Term Cryogenic Fluid Storage

The reason I post that document while it is directly unrelated to the Shuttle/Centaur, it has a page illustrating the Mission Kit/Orbiter mods that would have been used on the S/C missions. The relevant page is attached to this post. The page in question is 204.
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Offline DaveS

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Re: The Shuttle Centaur
« Reply #84 on: 07/20/2014 01:07 AM »
I just came across this nice film uploaded by the San Diego Air and Space Museum on the Shuttle Centaur:

"For Sardines, space is no problem!"
-1996 Astronaut class slogan

"We're rolling in the wrong direction but for the right reasons"
-USA engineer about the rollback of Discovery prior to the STS-114 Return To Flight mission

Offline Specifically-Impulsive

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Re: The Shuttle Centaur
« Reply #85 on: 07/29/2014 03:14 PM »
Possibly on topic, ran across this old document from the Centaur model development for the Shuttle Mission Simulator.  This was the schedule as proposed in 1984, it didn't hold of course, but reminded me how out front the sim development had to be in order to train the crew well in advance of their flights...

Offline DaveS

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Re: The Shuttle Centaur
« Reply #86 on: 10/25/2014 09:31 PM »
Found something interesting in the STS/Centaur EIS that Blackstar linked earlier in the thread. It seems like the fluid/gas lines on the CISS changed between 1983 and 1985. The first attached image is of the fluid/gas system on the CISS in 1983 while the second is the same in 1985. Anyone know if that was the last change prior to production/final assembly of the CISS?
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"We're rolling in the wrong direction but for the right reasons"
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Offline L5

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Re: The Shuttle Centaur
« Reply #87 on: 11/13/2014 11:26 PM »
The answer may be in the "Centaur-G Technical Description". Fig 3-6 on page 3-5 is the second fluids config you show, and the last according to my memory of it. I will upload the PDF here, but I see the "Centaur-G' [Prime] Technical Description" has it's own thread which is outdated. Any suggestions?
Please give feedback on my first few posts to get me up to responding efficiently on this great forum. This is post #1.
Thx all...
Dano
Chief Space Systems Engineer

Edit: Just Adding two possibly helpful partial diagrams.
« Last Edit: 11/14/2014 01:49 AM by L5 »
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Offline DaveS

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Re: The Shuttle Centaur
« Reply #88 on: 11/14/2014 03:43 PM »
The answer may be in the "Centaur-G Technical Description". Fig 3-6 on page 3-5 is the second fluids config you show, and the last according to my memory of it. I will upload the PDF here, but I see the "Centaur-G' [Prime] Technical Description" has it's own thread which is outdated. Any suggestions?
Please give feedback on my first few posts to get me up to responding efficiently on this great forum. This is post #1.
Thx all...
Dano
Chief Space Systems Engineer

Edit: Just Adding two possibly helpful partial diagrams.
Great post and great complement document on the shorter G version. The images you attached, do you know the revision date of the document they came from? The Centaur G Technical Description that you attached was dated 1982 and showed some similarities in the fluid schematics with the one I attached from 1985.

Also, the titles are incorrect. All shown are on the CISS which is in the payload bay.
"For Sardines, space is no problem!"
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"We're rolling in the wrong direction but for the right reasons"
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Offline L5

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Re: The Shuttle Centaur
« Reply #89 on: 11/17/2014 11:54 PM »
I apologize for the half document scans. The originals are 11 x 22 inches in size, not 8 ½” x 11” as they appear. I cannot scan this size doc, but a lot of what I have is in that old ‘C-size’ format. [Many are Real Blue Prints that start to disintegrate if you look too hard at them, much less try to copy em.]

First: These two unreleased ‘CDR handout destined’ drawings both dated 7-27-1983 are of the G’ vehicle, not the Stubby G version. [I don’t believe it but I am actually cutting-pasting-manipulating Shuttle/Centaur docs manually, just like I did 33 years ago… Worm Hole anyone?]
Anyway, I reduced and then cut’n pasted the original yellowing 11 x 22 inch drawings into 6 x 8 inch pages which I Uploaded Down below.

You will see that the diagram is really labeled accurately. [ya just had to see the whole pic is all]. The Draftsman was told to simply show each avionics box, both on the Centaur and on the CISS, exactly where they physically sat, as viewed from the Port and Starboard sides, as per the customers request. Cut-outs are used to show boxes hidden from view which may be on Centaur or CISS. These working dwgs were published in the “CISS Electrical Systems CDR Meeting Handout” in mid(?) 1983.

Secondly: I got a lot of cobwebs shaking loose upstairs, and the solution for this program has always been for us to reference my Centaur/CASE Control Interfaces Block Diagram. It is easy to see all Centaur/Spacecraft Electrical Interfaces on one page for discussion purposes. It needs to be explained a little first, but I will upload any revision/Graphic I can find today. This Systems Block Diagram progressed from Rev-A on Aug- 27-1982, through Rev-G around Jan-1984.
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Offline L5

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Re: The Shuttle Centaur
« Reply #90 on: 11/18/2014 02:46 AM »
I apologize for the half document scans. The originals are 11 x 22 inches in size, not 8 ½” x 11” as they appear. I cannot scan this size doc, but a lot of what I have is in that old ‘C-size’ format. [Many are Real Blue Prints that start to disintegrate if you look too hard at them, much less try to copy em.]

First: These two unreleased ‘CDR handout destined’ drawings both dated 7-27-1983 are of the G’ vehicle, not the Stubby G version. [I don’t believe it but I am actually cutting-pasting-manipulating Shuttle/Centaur docs manually, just like I did 33 years ago… Worm Hole anyone?]
Anyway, I reduced and then cut’n pasted the original yellowing 11 x 22 inch drawings into 6 x 8 inch pages which I Uploaded Down below.

You will see that the diagram is really labeled accurately. [ya just had to see the whole pic is all]. The Draftsman was told to simply show each avionics box, both on the Centaur and on the CISS, exactly where they physically sat, as viewed from the Port and Starboard sides, as per the customers request. Cut-outs are used to show boxes hidden from view which may be on Centaur or CISS. These working dwgs were published in the “CISS Electrical Systems CDR Meeting Handout” in mid(?) 1983.

Secondly: I got a lot of cobwebs shaking loose upstairs, and the solution for this program has always been for us to reference my Centaur/CASE Control Interfaces Block Diagram. It is easy to see all Centaur/Spacecraft Electrical Interfaces on one page for discussion purposes. It needs to be explained a little first, but I will upload any revision/Graphic I can find today. This Systems Block Diagram progressed from Rev-A on Aug- 27-1982, through Rev-G around Jan-1984.
Gotta check my image rotation and figure out the quote function next time.

Now for the fluids delta question. I will look to see what the date problem is. I believe that this is the fluids change related to improving the ability/fault tolerance required when dumping propellants in an RTLS abort situation. The Orbiter could not land with a fueled Centaur… Period. The Astronauts wanted to know for sure that they could empty the vehicle’s tanks quickly and safely in that worst case emergency failure scenario, while maintaining full dual failure tolerance for all credible critical failures. This was just part of the first ‘Man Rating’ of the Centaur, so we took it in the chin and changed the configuration, adding weight + complexity.
Document dates on anything but officially released engineering drawings can be very misleading. Your 1985 CISS/Orbiter fluids system diagram is the same as the final one shown in the 1982 diagram in the Centaur G Tech Description I uploaded, right? If a subsystem hasn’t changed since the last design review, you would normally just copy the last document used and paste a new Title Block, and maybe a new date over the original. [The customer deserves up to date paper and ink for those momentous Critical Design Review meetings ya know.] I would say in general, that newer looking text and graphics on a document usually means they are the most developed designs. The opposite is true for very old unchanging subsystems/components; The spotty, gritty looking high contrast graphics/text tend to denote old stuff that never changes, except for multiple copies of copies degrading the document over time. Anyway, I will check exact dates when I can. I will also include some Titan 4 Centaur G’ images, and one of the more interesting Centaur DoD Missions. The Titan 4 Centaur version flew 16 missions with 100% success according to Gunter. This vehicle had to fly.
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Offline DaveS

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Re: The Shuttle Centaur
« Reply #91 on: 11/18/2014 02:35 PM »
Thanks for all the information, it is greatly appreciated. Does anyone of you have any final mass break downs from around the time the program got the axe (June(?) 1986)?
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Offline DaveS

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Re: The Shuttle Centaur
« Reply #92 on: 11/19/2014 03:33 PM »
I'm also interested in any schematics that shows the plumbing for the oxygen system on the CISS/Centaur to the same degree as the hydrogen system.
"For Sardines, space is no problem!"
-1996 Astronaut class slogan

"We're rolling in the wrong direction but for the right reasons"
-USA engineer about the rollback of Discovery prior to the STS-114 Return To Flight mission

Offline L5

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Re: The Shuttle Centaur
« Reply #93 on: 11/19/2014 07:47 PM »
I'm also interested in any schematics that shows the plumbing for the oxygen system on the CISS/Centaur to the same degree as the hydrogen system.

Are you talking about fluids schematics or physical structures diagrams?
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Offline DaveS

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Re: The Shuttle Centaur
« Reply #94 on: 11/19/2014 07:54 PM »
I'm also interested in any schematics that shows the plumbing for the oxygen system on the CISS/Centaur to the same degree as the hydrogen system.

Are you talking about fluids schematics or physical structures diagrams?
The physical structures diagrams, like the ones posted previously. Any details on the CISS would be great, especially the "break points" where the CISS ends of the plumbing meets the orbiter ends which was part of the "Centaur Mission Kit".

Edit:
Also was the red ring around the conical transition section between the LH2/LOX tanks flight equipment or was it GSE? Also in this photo where the LH2 F/D/D line is supposed to be there seems to be some kind of boxes. Also flight config or GSE?
« Last Edit: 11/19/2014 08:00 PM by DaveS »
"For Sardines, space is no problem!"
-1996 Astronaut class slogan

"We're rolling in the wrong direction but for the right reasons"
-USA engineer about the rollback of Discovery prior to the STS-114 Return To Flight mission

Offline L5

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Re: The Shuttle Centaur
« Reply #95 on: 11/21/2014 09:03 PM »
I'm also interested in any schematics that shows the plumbing for the oxygen system on the CISS/Centaur to the same degree as the hydrogen system.

Are you talking about fluids schematics or physical structures diagrams?
The physical structures diagrams, like the ones posted previously. Any details on the CISS would be great, especially the "break points" where the CISS ends of the plumbing meets the orbiter ends which was part of the "Centaur Mission Kit".

Edit:
Also was the red ring around the conical transition section between the LH2/LOX tanks flight equipment or was it GSE? Also in this photo where the LH2 F/D/D line is supposed to be there seems to be some kind of boxes. Also flight config or GSE?

Most of what Centaur is, exists as Avionics equipment on the 'Equipment Module' (EM). It is a heavy system part. Here is the mass breakdown for one piece of Avionics equipment; one of 5 fault tolerant Computer Units (CU) on the CISS, which I have handy.
That top (bright) red scaffolding with white tiles to stand on, allowing total access to the EM and Spacecraft stacking, is REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT GSE hardware. Just like the flags by the woman and RL-10 Protectors/Environment Isolators on the engines. They are the same color. The ring around the Lo2/LH2 I/F is more brown/gold. That is the color of the insulation blanket, so I would say that is the bottom end of the Insul blanket. The manifold and that avionics box (It looks like the Aft Signal Conditioner or CDU or PICU) are also insulated, hence the same color. Just look at a Centaur image where the whole Insulation Blanket is exposed before Radiation Shield application, and you should be able to tell.

I have never read the "Centaur Mission Kit". U have link?
Are you building a scale model or something?

If you look closely at the Centaur/Booster I/F, you will see the top half of the 6 electrical rise off umbilical connectors at the separation plane almost hidden by the top rail of the white cart to the right of the 2 standing workers. Everything above that plane is Centaur. I uploaded the second to last revision of this Case/Centaur Interface I made... Rev-F. I have my final Rev- G in a file somewhere. It shows those 6 connectors in the center of the page. All subsystems to the left of the staging disconnects on that block diagram are Centaur or Spacecraft. Ignore the boxes to the right of these disconnects... ref only. I also integrated all Centaur Payloads. There were many.

Did you see pages 3-12, 3-22 & 3-23 in the G Tech Description. The rear view on Fig 3-34 is shows some LOX side, just hard to see. Both sides were symmetrical for the most part on CISS as I recall. These lines had to articulate evenly during rotation.

I have 65K lbs to LEO. The first 2 launches of STS-Centaur in a 2 week window were to be the heaviest launches yet, and the SSMEs were scheduled to run at 110% rated power during ascent for the first time. I will look for something more concrete.

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Offline DaveS

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Re: The Shuttle Centaur
« Reply #96 on: 11/21/2014 09:26 PM »
Thanks for the reply. I'm one of the developers of a project to faithfully replicate the Space Shuttle, including the pads and the various upper stages for the free Orbiter Spaceflight Simulator. I'm the one who is creating the 3D models of the Centaur upper stages (both the G Prime and the G) as well as the CISS. So this involves getting the models as well as the coding that drives the simulation absolutely correct and accurate.

The main thread where we in the project discuss the Centaur G Prime can be found here: http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=20597
Be sure to check out the entire thread as it contains all of our discussions.

I have attached a schematic from an unrelated document that illustrates the Centaur Mod/Mission Kits.
"For Sardines, space is no problem!"
-1996 Astronaut class slogan

"We're rolling in the wrong direction but for the right reasons"
-USA engineer about the rollback of Discovery prior to the STS-114 Return To Flight mission

Offline L5

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Re: The Shuttle Centaur
« Reply #97 on: 11/21/2014 10:00 PM »
Thanks for the reply. I'm one of the developers of a project to faithfully replicate the Space Shuttle, including the pads and the various upper stages for the free Orbiter Spaceflight Simulator. I'm the one who is creating the 3D models of the Centaur upper stages (both the G Prime and the G) as well as the CISS. So this involves getting the models as well as the coding that drives the simulation absolutely correct and accurate.

The main thread where we in the project discuss the Centaur G Prime can be found here: http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=20597
Be sure to check out the entire thread as it contains all of our discussions.

I have attached a schematic from an unrelated document that illustrates the Centaur Mod/Mission Kits.
Very interesting on 2 fronts.
1) The first year of the three I worked in the GD Space Systems group on S/C, I designed the Systems Integration Facility (SIF) Simulators; Centaur/CISS/Spacecraft/orbiter/GSE/CCLS... etc. These were also used to develop the flight and ground software for everybody. This software and the detailed results of that development should be freely available from NASA now. Just find and download it. I'll help.

2) I just purchased the first game software of my life, and I have been playing computer games since 1972. Not a fan of any for long, so never bought. This one is called 'Space Engineers'. I've heard good things about Minecraft, which is supposedly similar to Space Engineers; 'Building something', but space based. You buy the software once and you own it. No monthly fees. I think I will like this game. I was going to get Microsoft flight sim which I know well. Maybe we can marry the two...

Edit: Give me some time to study the thread.
« Last Edit: 11/21/2014 10:02 PM by L5 »
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Offline DaveS

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Re: The Shuttle Centaur
« Reply #98 on: 11/21/2014 10:40 PM »
Do you have any titles or NASA reference date to start the search with? Most of our Centaur data comes from the Centaur G Prime Technical Description and some documents from the NASA Technical Report Server (NTRS).

Also, any other photos showing the Centaur with the TPS applied would be great. The only S/C photos I have is of the one on exhibit at the US S&RC, but it along with the CISS it is mated to, has had alot of hardware including the TPS removed.

And do feel free to join and post anything in our Centaur thread.
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-1996 Astronaut class slogan

"We're rolling in the wrong direction but for the right reasons"
-USA engineer about the rollback of Discovery prior to the STS-114 Return To Flight mission

Offline L5

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Re: The Shuttle Centaur
« Reply #99 on: 11/22/2014 12:05 AM »
Do you have any titles or NASA reference date to start the search with? Most of our Centaur data comes from the Centaur G Prime Technical Description and some documents from the NASA Technical Report Server (NTRS).

Also, any other photos showing the Centaur with the TPS applied would be great. The only S/C photos I have is of the one on exhibit at the US S&RC, but it along with the CISS it is mated to, has had alot of hardware including the TPS removed.

And do feel free to join and post anything in our Centaur thread.
I have a bunch of pics and doc and refs. Do I post that much here, in the main thread, or a database...?
There is a second S/C & CISS on display. One S/C was slated for Galileo, the other for the single or dual satellite Huygens Sun Probe. [Orig named; The International Solar Polar Mission. Each satellite was to go to a different Sun Pole simultaneously, via Jupiter. Then the probes would have the North and South Poles of the Sun, exactly between them at points... made for better science.]

That is how we got both displays of the CISS & Centaur mated. However, there is strong controversy even now in NASA about Glen Research not getting one of the Displays. That was crappy wrong and exemplifies the petty strife coming from a small gutterball nasa subgroup and their crappy good old boy buddies in another NASA subgroup.

Here is mass from web;
Centaur G STS
Lox/LH2 propellant rocket stage. Loaded/empty mass 16,327/2,600 kg. Thrust 146.80 kN. Vacuum specific impulse 444 seconds.
Cost $ : 21.000 million. No Engines: 2.

Status: Out of production.
Gross mass: 16,327 kg (35,994 lb).
Unfuelled mass: 2,600 kg (5,700 lb).
Height: 5.95 m (19.52 ft).
Diameter: 4.33 m (14.20 ft).
Span: 4.33 m (14.20 ft).
Thrust: 146.80 kN (33,002 lbf).
Specific impulse: 444 s.
Burn time: 420 s.


Here is a meager start.
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