Author Topic: SpaceX COTS Demo 2 Updates  (Read 448900 times)

Offline Antares

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2 Updates
« Reply #400 on: 05/20/2011 05:18 am »
That they haven't done that, or at least aren't saying they have, suggests it's something they feel is fixable in a timely fashion.

Note that this wasn't SpaceX "saying" anything. This was COMSTAC.  One wonders if SpaceX knew this information was being released.  Mr. Alexander is a good guy, so I hope he's not in hot water for this.
If I like something on NSF, it's probably because I know it to be accurate.  Every once in a while, it's just something I agree with.  Facts generally receive the former.

Offline HMXHMX

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2 Updates
« Reply #401 on: 05/20/2011 06:32 am »

As for "tarnish," I'm pleased to see their inspection and quality control program is doing well. Much rather find problems now that at T+1:30

There was an escape, since the tank became a stage.

jimvela echos a point that I have been making.  It is easy to design and build a rocket.  The hard part is doing it over and over again successfully.  It is things like this that increase the costs of doing business in the launch arena.  Things just keep popping.  Here is another scenario of something that could go "wrong' and cause delays.  While waiting for the second stage, the first stage just sits there.  Time goes by and eventually the second stage is delivered.  It becomes time to mate the stages and guess what?  They don't fit, it seems that the 1st stage developed a little ovality.  So they develop a fix and press on.  But again, more costs were incurred.  The crack in the nozzle was another thing.  This is what happens time after time.  Making a launch vehicle reliable takes people, which aren't cheap.

Yep.  Consider that the first Saturn V S-IC propellant tanks were scrapped due to bad welds.  A bad weld repair caused an S-II bulkhead to fail during testing.  The first Saturn V had to be de-stacked when cracks were found in S-II stage welds.  An S-IVB flight stage exploded during an acceptance test when a pressurant tank weld failed.  Bad welds caused plenty of problems with early Atlas and Centaur stages.  Most of the early Titan missiles leaked.  And so on.

 - Ed Kyle

Heck, Titan IIs were leaking in the holes.  I have seen multiple layer patches on those birds that were very worrisome.  Fortunately for me, they were empty at the time!

But in the end, you have to be able to churn out stages like "sausages," to quote a fellow who was very excited by high rate rocket production.  Anybody know who?  ;)

Offline Proponent

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2 Updates
« Reply #402 on: 05/20/2011 06:42 am »
Nikita Sergeyevich Khruschev?

Offline Proponent

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2 Updates
« Reply #403 on: 05/20/2011 06:54 am »
BtW, little-known fact: the names Khruschev and Korolev are both accented on the final syllable and that syllable is pronounced "yoff."  If you learn Russian as a second language, you're taught the Cyrillic letters 'e' -- pronounced "ye" -- and 'ё' (that's an 'e' with an umlaut over it, in case not everybody has the requisite character set installed on his computer) -- pronounced "yo."  The two names contain 'ё', but native speakers don't usually bother to write the umlaut, hence the transliteration is "ev" rather than "ov".
« Last Edit: 05/20/2011 06:55 am by Proponent »

Offline HMXHMX

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2 Updates
« Reply #404 on: 05/20/2011 04:29 pm »
Nikita Sergeyevich Khruschev?

Nailed it in one. ;)

Offline ugordan

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Offline joek

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2 Updates
« Reply #406 on: 05/20/2011 10:24 pm »
There are weld defects on the second stage:

Is this really new news or the same prolem that resulted in the second stage nozzle trim?  From the Dec 6 2010 press conference as reported by several sites:

Quote
Space Exploration Technologies (SpaceX) is delaying until at least Dec. 8 the debut flight of its Dragon capsule due to a potential problem with a nozzle in the Falcon 9 launcher’s second-stage engine.... The problem appears to be in a weld joint, which showed indications of “porosity and cracking,” Shotwell says.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=space&id=news/asd/2010/12/07/03.xml&headline=SpaceX%20Puts%20Dragon%20Debut%20Flight%20On%20Hold

edit: per ugordan's comment below, a different issue
edit: Add more complete quote.
« Last Edit: 05/20/2011 10:43 pm by joek »

Offline ugordan

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2 Updates
« Reply #407 on: 05/20/2011 10:30 pm »
The nozzle damage was due to fluttering caused by a GN2 vent, i.e. it resulted after a wet dress rehearsal of the integrated vehicle was performed.

Online Nate_Trost

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2 Updates
« Reply #408 on: 05/20/2011 10:56 pm »
Wasn't the flight 2 nozzle problem introduced by changes made as a result of the turbine exhaust nozzle sticking on flight 1? Or did they just get lucky it didn't happen with flight 1?

Offline renclod

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2 Updates
« Reply #409 on: 05/21/2011 12:19 pm »
Any comments over this NAC meeting minutes from February ?

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/532002main_Space_Ops_Minutes_Feb_8_2011.pdf
(thanks to yg1968 who posted the link in another thread)

"Commercial Cargo.

Whether to combine two missions into one, or keep them separate is under discussion for the next SpaceX flight.

One of the many challenges is that the communications link from the Station to Dragon violates communications standards because the frequency is also used by other government agencies around the world. It is geared for EVA, but to increase power, it interferes with other communications.

There is also a problem with the grapple fixture on the Dragon capsule;

and when the vehicle berths, it plumes the solar rays.

However, industry can change their software faster than NASA can analyze the impacts, so NASA has a lot of work to do in this first year for commercial cargo.

The July date may slip to 2012."


also this:

"Mr. Holloway: Before we flew the ATV, the terminal phase of approach and docking were certified. How did the two {SpaceX} compare?

Mr. Gerstenmaier: The certification was not as thorough as what the Europeans have done. DragonEye has flown on the Shuttle and they have done bits and pieces, but much remains to be done in rendezvous.

The computers are not radiation hardened, but are commercial grade and subject to single-event upset. Whether this could cause loss of mission is unknown."


Dragon's computers are not radiation hardened ?!

« Last Edit: 05/21/2011 12:20 pm by renclod »

Offline marsavian

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2 Updates
« Reply #410 on: 05/21/2011 01:57 pm »
Hope they are not PC grade either, Server chips at least can, from the latest Xeons upwards, have some sort of corrective measures for radiative bit flipping and Tandem Itaniums are probably the best in that respect with duplications of cores and voting done when one is out of line like the more expensive IBM Mainframe chips. I know they are looking at minimum cost but this maybe a step too far, they can consult with IBM,HP and Intel and get the most robust terrestrial solution if they are not going to use specific radiation hardened chips. These terrestrial solutions are designed to recover gracefully from radiation hitting the Earth and run the most critical computer systems that have to stay up all the time.
« Last Edit: 05/21/2011 05:43 pm by marsavian »

Offline jimvela

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2 Updates
« Reply #411 on: 05/21/2011 02:17 pm »
they can consult with IBM,HP and Intel

None of these come immediately to mind as the first place to look for parts when I think about building rad-hard avionics... 


Offline marsavian

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2 Updates
« Reply #412 on: 05/21/2011 02:20 pm »
Well they have chosen not to use hardened chips for some reason but you can buy commercial server chips that are designed to be very recoverable from radiation effects. Case in point ...

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2005/18nov_eaftc/

« Last Edit: 05/21/2011 02:23 pm by marsavian »

Offline Antares

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2 Updates
« Reply #413 on: 05/21/2011 05:40 pm »
Hmmm, the emperor's wardrobe is shrinking, as some have foretold.
If I like something on NSF, it's probably because I know it to be accurate.  Every once in a while, it's just something I agree with.  Facts generally receive the former.

Offline mr. mark

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2 Updates
« Reply #414 on: 05/21/2011 05:48 pm »
It's probably wiser for me refrain from comments until I know the extent of any problems in the chain. It may simply be growing pains as happens with any business including my own. A good management team will overcome these initial problems before moving on to full production. Spacex is still in the testing phase of COTS and Falcon 9 and can expect disruptions.

Offline Chris-A

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2 Updates
« Reply #415 on: 05/21/2011 06:09 pm »
Processors are considered to be very reliable for consumer and server grade electronics. Memory like RAM, is a much different story. I can't imagine SDRAM with error correcting features working in orbit.

Is it possible to shield the boxes? I'm guessing no, or not easily.

Offline marsavian

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2 Updates
« Reply #416 on: 05/21/2011 06:09 pm »
It's probably wiser for me refrain from comments until I know the extent of any problems in the chain. It may simply be growing pains as happens with any business including my own. A good management team will overcome these initial problems before moving on to full production. Spacex is still in the testing phase of COTS and Falcon 9 and can expect disruptions.


This looks more like a design fault than an initial teething problem, something whose bad effects will only be found out from a random radiation event. They need to seriously look at this again if they are just using standard PC chips. If they want to use standard commercial than a HP NonStop (Tandem) Itanium blade or small IBM System Z Mainframe would be much better than a $1K PC, they are designed for the best fault tolerance commercial computer systems on Earth. Even the latest E3/E7 Xeons would be better and they still use x86 chips like PCs and could run the same software.

http://h20223.www2.hp.com/NonStopComputing/cache/307953-0-0-0-121.html
http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2041343/hp-releases-80-core-intel-xeon-e7-server
« Last Edit: 05/21/2011 06:23 pm by marsavian »

Online Nate_Trost

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2 Updates
« Reply #417 on: 05/21/2011 06:30 pm »
Who says they are using standard PC chips? I don't think SpaceX has ever disclosed any specifics of their avionics hardware or flight software, except the odd tidbit that can be guessed from choice of subcontractors. Even if they aren't using one of the rad-hard CPUs, it's far more likely they are using established embedded platforms and one of the conventional RTOSes.

The tidbit about the omnidirectional broadcast power is a bit curious, if it's the box which has already been installed on the station, how did that not get caught in a design or station integration review?

Offline joek

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2 Updates
« Reply #418 on: 05/21/2011 06:35 pm »
Dragon's computers are not radiation hardened ?!

Hard to tell whether that comment is specific to DragonEye or a more general statement?  DragonEye uses a COTS system which does not appear to be rad-hard (if it was I expect they'd say so); see:
DragonEye 3D Flash LIDAR Space Camera™
http://www.advancedscientificconcepts.com/products/dragoneye.html

Offline marsavian

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2 Updates
« Reply #419 on: 05/21/2011 06:41 pm »
Who says they are using standard PC chips? I don't think SpaceX has ever disclosed any specifics of their avionics hardware or flight software, except the odd tidbit that can be guessed from choice of subcontractors. Even if they aren't using one of the rad-hard CPUs, it's far more likely they are using established embedded platforms and one of the conventional RTOSes.

Embedded ARM chips are even worse than standard x86 PC chips, no ECC in their caches.

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