Node Module - Russian segment

[baldusi]

I don't read Russian, so may be someone can answer. But I've read that Roscosmos is planning to replace all their current Soyuz with Soyuz-2.1a/b by 2014 (I guess that's at the factory side, probably 2016 at the launch site). Is there any mention of the custom Progress LV? It would be a good step to see what it takes to adapt current Progress and Soyuz capsules to the new LV.

Where did you read that rather amazing news?

At Anatoly Zak's site. They "only" have the Soyuz-U and Soyuz-FG to replace, since the 2.1a/b has already replaced the Molnyia-M from Plesk. And they are producing it for them and Arianespace. So, at least five to six per year as of now. It wouldn't be too difficult to see them replacing the rest to consolidate the factory lines.

[PeterAlt]

Is this supposed to launch with a modified Progress as its tug? If so, what is the designated Progress flight number? Thanks

[PeterAlt]

I forgot to ask, why are we so sure that the CSS module is based on the Node Module? Besides the obvious that they look similar and both have the same manufacture, has there been any official statements saying that this is so. I ask because I see similarities but some key differences, such as the extended length of the CSS module, compared to the Node Module.

[Danderman]

I forgot to ask, why are we so sure that the CSS module is based on the Node Module? Besides the obvious that they look similar and both have the same manufacture, has there been any official statements saying that this is so. I ask because I see similarities but some key differences, such as the extended length of the CSS module, compared to the Node Module.

No official statements yet, sorry.

My suspicion is that the Russian company promoting the Commercial Space Station simply used the Energia design with some minor modifications, and then generated some computer graphics of an enhanced interior, in the hopes of attracting some investment. There has been little activity on their web site since the initial splash, so perhaps raising money has been more difficult than they originally imagined.

[hop]

I forgot to ask, why are we so sure that the CSS module is based on the Node Module? Besides the obvious that they look similar and both have the same manufacture, has there been any official statements saying that this is so.

We don't have any official statement, but I would say that if the CSS has any chance of being real, it is going to be closely related to something that someone else is paying for. The node modules is the most obvious choice.

I would suggest not reading too much into CG promotional materials.

[PeterAlt]

So, it might be possible that the CSS is not entirely a clone of the NM, but may be loosely based on its design. If so, it is not reliable to look at the CSS designs and assume that the same is applicable to the NM.

[PeterAlt]

One more thing, isn't it interesting that on the CSS web page, they mention that its orbit would be near the ISS orbit and that the docking system will be compatible with Russian, American, and Chinese space craft. If they're successful, this would be a good reason for China to put their station within the vicinity of CSS. I always imagined the ISS evolving into a space city of sorts, with interconnecting modules, but the "city" to evolve may actually be multiple free flying stations operating nearby.

[Ronsmytheiii]

One more thing, isn't it interesting that on the CSS web page, they mention that its orbit would be near the ISS orbit and that the docking system will be compatible with Russian, American, and Chinese space craft. If they're successful, this would be a good reason for China to put their station within the vicinity of CSS. I always imagined the ISS evolving into a space city of sorts, with interconnecting modules, but the "city" to evolve may actually be multiple free flying stations operating nearby.

The Russians sold the Chinese the APAS-95, the same system that the Russians sold us for the orbiters so it is not that surprising. With the iLIDS/NDS system the US and Europe are moving away from APAS, so would not read into the statement too much.

[Danderman]

So, it might be possible that the CSS is not entirely a clone of the NM, but may be loosely based on its design. If so, it is not reliable to look at the CSS designs and assume that the same is applicable to the NM.

The structure of the CSS is clearly exactly like the Node module plus a small 2.2 meter diameter section (which may be the remainder of the SPP hull, after Rassvet was carved out). The differences are in the hatches and docking ports. Its possible that the CSS is the Node module structural test article.

[Space Pete]

With the iLIDS/NDS system the US and Europe are moving away from APAS

Well, iLIDS/IDSS (of which NDS is NASA's implementation) will still use the APAS docking collar, but with a LIDS capture ring - so foreign partners wouldn't have to adapt their docking systems too much in order to be ISS-compatible.

[anik]

Is this supposed to launch with a modified Progress as its tug? If so, what is the designated Progress flight number?

Progress M-UM cargo ship-module (factory number 303).

[Danderman]

I did a screen grab from the NK forum that shows an updated image of the Node Module. Among the differences from earlier versions of the Node module, as well as Pirs/Posk:

1) The adapter between the PAO (service module) is modified, and is no longer a frustrum.

2) The Kurs long range antennas are heavily modified.

3) The television camera has been relocated to the front hemisphere. This will require retraining of the crew for TORU operations.

4) A grapple fixture has been added to the Node module, presumably for the ERA.

5) The short range Kurs antennas have been replaced by something new. I could speculate that this is Kurs-MM, which implies that MLM will also support Kurs-MM (ie have a Kurs-MM Passive box). This is big news, if true.

[Danderman]

Someone over on the NK forum suggested that the new antennas on the Node module are actually Kurs-N ("new Kurs"), not Kurs-MM. I will have to disagree.

Kurs-N is what NIITP calls "new old Kurs", it is compatible with the current Kurs system (centimeter Kurs), but the electronics are modernized. This means that the antennas remain the same, as does the frequency (S-band).  This allows New Kurs to integrate seamlessly with ISS, with the advantage of lighter boxes and less power consumption.  However, the New Kurs is not more accurate than the current Kurs system.

Kurs-MM is not compatible with the current Kurs system; the frequency is in the millimeter band, and therefore the antennas are different. The antennas on the drawing above appear to be similar to Kurs-MM antennas, but different from the current Kurs antennas.  Kurs-MM boxes are also lighter than the current Kurs, draw less power, but more importantly, Kurs-MM is 10 times more accurate than the current Kurs system.

[Prober]

Someone over on the NK forum suggested that the new antennas on the Node module are actually Kurs-N ("new Kurs"), not Kurs-MM. I will have to disagree.


Kurs-MM is not compatible with the current Kurs system; the frequency is in the millimeter band, and therefore the antennas are different. The antennas on the drawing above appear to be similar to Kurs-MM antennas, but different from the current Kurs antennas.  Kurs-MM boxes are also lighter than the current Kurs, draw less power, but more importantly, Kurs-MM is 10 times more accurate than the current Kurs system.

So we are still using refurbished Kurs systems?

[Danderman]

Someone over on the NK forum suggested that the new antennas on the Node module are actually Kurs-N ("new Kurs"), not Kurs-MM. I will have to disagree.


Kurs-MM is not compatible with the current Kurs system; the frequency is in the millimeter band, and therefore the antennas are different. The antennas on the drawing above appear to be similar to Kurs-MM antennas, but different from the current Kurs antennas.  Kurs-MM boxes are also lighter than the current Kurs, draw less power, but more importantly, Kurs-MM is 10 times more accurate than the current Kurs system.

So we are still using refurbished Kurs systems?

Yep. Every Shuttle was coming down with as many Kurs boxes as could be accommodated.

Note that it takes about 18 month to refurbish a Kurs box, so we will see the last of those boxes in 2012. I don't know if the used boxes since STS-135 are being stockpiled somewhere in ISS, awaiting Dragon.

[Danderman]

... and now the NK forum has this drawing of the Node module showing Kurs antennas that are compatible with the current ISS Kurs, as opposed to Kurs-MM antennas on the previous drawing.

 

[Danderman]

Does this slip also push back the Node Module? If so, what's the new estimated launch date for NM?

I am not sure if the Node Module is actually funded.

[Space Pete]

Does this slip also push back the Node Module? If so, what's the new estimated launch date for NM?

I am not sure if the Node Module is actually funded.

It is. Current launch date: December 18, 2013.

[arkaska]

But that will slip if MLM is unofficially NET dec 2013

[Space Pete]

But that will slip if MLM is unofficially NET dec 2013

True. Officially, MLM is Summer 2013, with NM Dec 2013. Unofficially, if MLM is Dec 2013, we can expect NM in mid 2014.