Author Topic: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site  (Read 235928 times)

Offline Jester

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #140 on: 03/14/2011 11:32 AM »
P.S.

On a lighter note, STS-53 had a stoweaway, named dog breath.
« Last Edit: 03/14/2011 11:32 AM by Jester »

Offline AS-503

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #141 on: 03/14/2011 12:00 PM »
Crater was programmed to calculate ice impact damage to the Saturn V.
It was not optimised for lower mass debris damage to a tile.

The big problem with crater and STS-107 was fully spelled out in the CAIB.

The lack of upkeep/funding of the launch cameras gave the team using crater 'less' data than they needed.

No one knew the 'exact' location of the debris strike. Was it the leading edge or just below near the landing gear door?

What was the clocking angle of the rotating debris?

What was the size/mass of the debris?

Without good data in you do not get good data out.

The engineers also knew that crater over-calculated damage AND we are just talking about foam here (dangerous combination).

The precise angle of attack was unknown. The tests with the foam gun and leading edge samples that had flown 28 times had to be carried out multiple times with best-guesstimates on the angle of attack.

The flagrant dis-regard for more analysis from the upper management (Linda Ham) caused in-part by intense schedule pressure resulted in the foam strike being classified as nothing more than a turn around issue post flight in the OPF.


Offline edkyle99

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #142 on: 03/14/2011 12:53 PM »
Crater was programmed to calculate ice impact damage to the Saturn V.
It was not optimised for lower mass debris damage to a tile.

The big problem with crater and STS-107 was fully spelled out in the CAIB.

The lack of upkeep/funding of the launch cameras gave the team using crater 'less' data than they needed.

No one knew the 'exact' location of the debris strike. Was it the leading edge or just below near the landing gear door?

What was the clocking angle of the rotating debris?

What was the size/mass of the debris?

Without good data in you do not get good data out.

The engineers also knew that crater over-calculated damage AND we are just talking about foam here (dangerous combination).

The precise angle of attack was unknown. The tests with the foam gun and leading edge samples that had flown 28 times had to be carried out multiple times with best-guesstimates on the angle of attack.

The flagrant dis-regard for more analysis from the upper management (Linda Ham) caused in-part by intense schedule pressure resulted in the foam strike being classified as nothing more than a turn around issue post flight in the OPF.

But Mr. Hale tells us that "more analysis" wouldn't have mattered.  Crater turned out to give a reasonable answer for tile damage, but there were no analysis tools for the RCC leading edge parts where the impact actually occurred.  For that, management depended on expert opinion.  The experts, and every one else (it was common knowledge that foam could never, ever, break RCC), were wrong.

Offline psloss

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #143 on: 03/14/2011 01:24 PM »
But Mr. Hale tells us that "more analysis" wouldn't have mattered.
More analysis of the data set they had, which was inconclusive.  Some of the criticism from the investigation board was for not pursuing additional data.  Some of the recommendations were (in part) to collect more data.

Offline nooneofconsequence

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #144 on: 03/14/2011 08:38 PM »
So was the autoland system actually used on a later flight?

We came very close to testing auto land several yeas ago but changed 'our' mind a few weeks (days?) Before launch.  I personally think auto would work great.
Yes sir. It would've. It was tested on another airframe, just not used on Shuttle.

The tricky part is in getting the guidance feedback modelling correct - so called "control theory" (made harder by having started with the wrong aerodynamics at the beginning). Now that we have much faster computers, you have more ways to be certain that you don't have a "digitally induced oscillation".  Sometimes due to interesting numerical issues less common in modern computers where you don't have to use as many approximations to make up for the lack of "speed".

Would have been less exciting if  more tries with more ALT tests IMHO.
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato

Offline Wayne Hale

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #145 on: 03/15/2011 12:07 AM »
re nooneofconsequence
Careful.  Nobody else uses the MSBLS system developed for shuttle.  Many of the significant issues had to do with the ground equipment, the specific antenna arrangement, etc.  I seriously doubt that any other airframe used (uses?) that system. 

Offline nooneofconsequence

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #146 on: 03/15/2011 12:37 AM »
re nooneofconsequence
Careful.  Nobody else uses the MSBLS system developed for shuttle.  Many of the significant issues had to do with the ground equipment, the specific antenna arrangement, etc.  I seriously doubt that any other airframe used (uses?) that system. 
Absolutely true. Unique reflection/multipath issues. But MLS itself was deployed more widespread.

Was talking about the software and algorithms for autoland, variations of  which were tested on various other platforms. I can tell you tons about the error propagation of each of them, some of the problems with how they worked and where the root causes were.

As for GPS, it also has several issues too. Every navaid has its issues.
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato

Offline psloss

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #147 on: 04/09/2011 04:18 PM »
Wasn't sure where to put this, but Denise Chow w/Space.com interviewed Mr. Hale on the eve of the 30th anniversary of the first launch:
http://www.space.com/11343-space-shuttle-anniversary-wayne-hale.html

Offline Malderi

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #148 on: 04/14/2011 04:31 AM »
Wayne's latest (on the Shuttle decision) is sure to generate some discussion. I'm on my phone or I'd link it...

Offline TexasRED

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #149 on: 04/14/2011 04:37 AM »
http://waynehale.wordpress.com/2011/04/14/why-houston-did-not-get-a-shuttle/

Lots of truth in there. Kinda knocks the wind out of you.

Offline madscientist197

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #150 on: 04/14/2011 10:21 AM »
Very true. Unfortunately.
John

Offline neilh

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Someone is wrong on the Internet.
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Offline Mark S

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #152 on: 04/14/2011 05:19 PM »
http://waynehale.wordpress.com/2011/04/14/why-houston-did-not-get-a-shuttle/

Lots of truth in there. Kinda knocks the wind out of you.

:(

Blame the victim. Typical.

You JSC guys should not fall for this tactic. It is not your fault.

Offline TexasRED

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #153 on: 04/14/2011 05:31 PM »
http://waynehale.wordpress.com/2011/04/14/why-houston-did-not-get-a-shuttle/

Lots of truth in there. Kinda knocks the wind out of you.

:(

Blame the victim. Typical.

You JSC guys should not fall for this tactic. It is not your fault.

I didn't really read it as blaming JSC per say, but more so the city of Houston and the state of Texas.  I think he was touching on topics greater than landing a shuttle too.

I took the main points to be lack of future programs and projects, and not doing anything about it. I took it as trying to light a fire to do something about it. Just my take though.



Offline Mark S

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #154 on: 04/14/2011 06:20 PM »
Blame the victim. Typical.

You JSC guys should not fall for this tactic. It is not your fault.

I didn't really read it as blaming JSC per se, but more so the city of Houston and the state of Texas.  I think he was touching on topics greater than landing a shuttle too.

I took the main points to be lack of future programs and projects, and not doing anything about it. I took it as trying to light a fire to do something about it. Just my take though.

In that case, I agree that we (Texas in general and Houston in particular) should have made more of an effort in this recent instance, and that it should definitely be taken as a wake-up call. We are going to have to fight for every scrap of NASA business in the future, as Sen. Hutchison has been doing for SLS. Texas will have to keep up the fight for SLS, as well as any and all future NASA programs. Otherwise Hale's vision of a mothballed JSC may just be closer to becoming reality than we all think.

Offline Lars_J

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #155 on: 04/14/2011 06:58 PM »
Texas will have to keep up the fight for SLS, as well as any and all future NASA programs. Otherwise Hale's vision of a mothballed JSC may just be closer to becoming reality than we all think.

Yes. If you bet everything on SLS, you are in for a depressing future - the writing is on the wall. So have your representatives do their best to bring different kinds of aerospace projects to your state/city. NASA is in a transition, and whatever comes out of it will for sure not look like the Shuttle era.

Offline psloss

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #156 on: 04/18/2011 05:22 PM »
New post, dovetails with the CCDEV-2 announcement:
http://waynehale.wordpress.com/2011/04/18/tanstaafl/

Offline psloss

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #157 on: 06/01/2011 10:14 PM »
OK kind of a reach, but Wayne's tweet is how I became aware of it:
http://twitter.com/waynehale/status/74830931332055040

"Many old collegues gave a good summary of the space shuttle program on CBS Sunday Morning show - all us retirees watched!"

Here is the link to the CBS Sunday Morning piece, which I'm double posting for those like me that generally avoid embedded YT vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLjmGLFQ1A4



Offline vt_hokie

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #158 on: 06/01/2011 11:32 PM »

Here is the link to the CBS Sunday Morning piece, which I'm double posting for those like me that generally avoid embedded YT vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLjmGLFQ1A4




What Gen. Bolden fails to mention is that we are throwing away our existing capability in order to field a system that, with possible upgrades, might be used to send humans back to the moon or elsewhere beyond LEO someday, but not anytime soon.  Talking about going somewhere in 2025 isn't going to make up for the loss of what we have right now.

As I posted elsewhere earlier today, this is my take on the situation: We have invested over $100 billion in the International Space Station, and now we are putting this just completed laboratory in space at risk with this decision. We are completely dependent upon the Russians for crew transport (and have already been reliant on the Soyuz as an emergency lifeboat for resident crews, thanks to the cancellation of CRV). That is a potential single point of failure, so let's hope the Soyuz never suffers an accident that results in its grounding for any length of time. And even if SpaceX and Orbital come through with their unmanned supply craft on time (not likely, as they have already experienced delays and cost overruns), full utilization of ISS will be difficult without the space shuttle's unique capabilities.

As for manned spacecraft, the best case scenario is SpaceX fielding the crewed version of Dragon by 2015. History would suggest that the date will continue to move to the right, though. Orion/MPCV might make an unmanned test flight in 2016, but won't carry crew for at least a couple of years beyond that. And we're talking about nothing more than glorified Apollo capsules. Sierra Nevada Corporation is working on its "DreamChaser" lifting body crew transport, based on the old HL-20 design, but this is a company without any track record in building manned systems. It claims to be targeting 2014 for an unmanned orbital test flight, to be launched by an Atlas V. But I'd be willing to put money on that not happening. There is a very real risk that these new craft, with even moderate development problems and delays, won't be ready before the ISS is ready to be de-commissioned in the 2020 timeframe! (Yes, there is some talk of extending ISS to 2028, but that assumes a lot of things go right, and as we throw away the one system capable of providing all the maintenance and logistics support for the US segment, the odds of things going wrong increase greatly.)
« Last Edit: 06/01/2011 11:40 PM by vt_hokie »

Offline Longhorn John

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #159 on: 06/08/2011 11:08 PM »
I wonder if Mr Hale supports SLS?

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