Author Topic: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site  (Read 234123 times)

Offline iamlucky13

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #360 on: 02/03/2013 03:40 AM »
I don't see or recall reading about loss of hydraulics, except articles from the first few weeks after the accident...

Read the Columbia Crew Survival Investigation Report.

http://history.nasa.gov/columbia/columbiacrewsurvival.pdf

Thank you Jorge. I didn't realize that report had not been appended to the CAIB report.

Ciscodad is basically correct; Final loss of control apparently coincided with the loss of hydraulics.

Offline Lee Jay

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #361 on: 02/03/2013 03:48 AM »
That's not the original. It was a highly enhanced version, made painstakingly during the months after the accident.

I know that.  All I'm saying is that the out-of-focus tracking camera wasn't the only one shooting the launch with high resolving power.

What was the veiwing angle of the out of focus camera?
Was it filming the underside of the wing?

Wouldn't that have been the best possible perspective to analyze the point of impact and the clocking angle?

I don't know but the video I posted has such imagery.

Offline iamlucky13

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #362 on: 02/05/2013 06:54 PM »
That's not the original. It was a highly enhanced version, made painstakingly during the months after the accident.

I know that.  All I'm saying is that the out-of-focus tracking camera wasn't the only one shooting the launch with high resolving power.

What was the veiwing angle of the out of focus camera?
Was it filming the underside of the wing?

Wouldn't that have been the best possible perspective to analyze the point of impact and the clocking angle?

The attached photo is a comparison from the CAIB report of the views of each of the three long-range tracking cameras.

ET208 is from an analog video camera co-located with the out-of-focus film camera, and the debris was visible before and after impact. It was 26 miles away at the moment of impact.

E212 is a film camera similar to the out-of-focus camera. It was 17 miles away and had the best resolution and frame timing of the foam event.

E204 and ET204 were attached to smaller telescopes and far enough away the imagery was not considered useful.

Based on distance, E208, had it been in focus, would presumably have provided about 2/3 the resolution of E212. The analog video from ET208 was taken through a smaller telescope than the E208 film camera, and NTSC format video is lower in resolution than 35mm film in the first place.

It's uncertain if the damage would have been discernible on E208, partially because the exact damage that occurred isn't certain.

Offline Wayne Hale

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #363 on: 02/06/2013 02:20 AM »
The out of focus camera would have had a view of the underside of the wing and shown where the foam debris impacted; perhaps even shown resulting damage.  This view is fine but it doesn't show what we needed to know.

Offline AS-503

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #364 on: 02/06/2013 04:41 AM »
The out of focus camera would have had a view of the underside of the wing and shown where the foam debris impacted; perhaps even shown resulting damage.  This view is fine but it doesn't show what we needed to know.

This is what I was getting at by posting the rhetorical questions....

What was the viewing angle of the out of focus camera?
Was it filming the underside of the wing?

Wouldn't that have been the best possible perspective to analyze the point of impact and the clocking angle?

Thanks Mr. Hale

Offline yg1968

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #365 on: 02/06/2013 07:28 PM »
Quote from: Wayne Hale
- NASA is not a regulatory agency.
- But NASA has set up a set of "human rating" requirements for vehicles that NASA personnel will fly on.
- Possibly ported over to FAA regs but not a good idea. Portions are too conservative and rigid.
http://www.newspacewatch.com/articles/faa-conf-wed-morning-notes.html

Mr. Hale,

Out of curiosity. which portions of the commercial crew human ratings requirements do you think are overly conservative and rigid? Thanks.
« Last Edit: 02/06/2013 07:31 PM by yg1968 »

Offline Archibald

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #366 on: 02/09/2013 12:30 PM »
The lasts posts are the exact reason why I enjoy this forum so much.

Over the last two weeks I spent lot of time and energy digging the web for informations on that E-208 camera, trying to understand (and figure) what it would have showed had it been not out-of-focus.

Now thanks to this forum I have a clearer understanding of the issue.

To try and imagine what E-208 would have showed, one has to look at the ET-208 picture and try to figure more details (by how much, incidentally ?)

 Thank you all !
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Offline iamlucky13

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #367 on: 02/11/2013 08:25 PM »
The lasts posts are the exact reason why I enjoy this forum so much.

Over the last two weeks I spent lot of time and energy digging the web for informations on that E-208 camera, trying to understand (and figure) what it would have showed had it been not out-of-focus.

Now thanks to this forum I have a clearer understanding of the issue.

To try and imagine what E-208 would have showed, one has to look at the ET-208 picture and try to figure more details (by how much, incidentally ?)

 Thank you all !

I was doing the same - educating myself in more detail on the issues Mr. Hale has been discussing.

Since I had the info fresh at hand as a result, I'm glad to be able to add it to the discussion.

As I mentioned above, based solely on distance, E208 probably would have provided about 2/3 of the resolution as E212, which looks like it would have been modestly better than ET208, the video camera colocated with the out-of-focus camera.

In theory, between its larger telescope and higher resolution format, E208 could have had on the order of 8 times the resolution as ET208, but in reality, it looks like atmospheric effects limit the resolution as the distance increases.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #368 on: 02/12/2013 02:41 PM »
So our (NASA's) approach may need to be more incremental than it typically has been, to realize we aren't as smart as we think, and cover more of the bases before we put a human in harm's way. That doesn't necessarily mean we never get off the ground, but simply that if we plan to put man (a person) on the moon again, there is at least a way for that person to survive until a rescue attempt (with sufficient margin) can be mounted.

I have to disagree.  As we know, that was not the case with Apollo.  There's no question but that survival on the Moon is the key factor for success and that such a survival mechanism as you sketch out should be a high priority.

However, if that prioritization, 100% human survival is made the first priority, then we will literally never get off of the ground. 

Mr Hale has done an excellent job of pointing at the fundamental issue, which transcends specifics like ascent imagery. I'd sum it up as, "Before you rely on a system to function properly, be confident you know what state the system is in."

I'd have to say, "be confident that you've designed a good system", from the o-rings on up.

The fundamental issue was relying on external foam without an external skin, or a kevlar reinforcing net, or something other than only the tensile strength of the foam at max-Q.  The foam for the ET was the final design, not the initial design.

All the big rockets before shuttle had skins, and all the big rockets planned for today have skins.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #369 on: 02/12/2013 03:11 PM »
I'd have to say, "be confident that you've designed a good system", from the o-rings on up.

The fundamental issue was relying on external foam without an external skin, or a kevlar reinforcing net, or something other than only the tensile strength of the foam at max-Q.  The foam for the ET was the final design, not the initial design.

All the big rockets before shuttle had skins, and all the big rockets planned for today have skins.

It isn't a 'big' rocket issue, it's a 'what's in the debris path' issue.  The foam wouldn't have been an issue if criticality-0 components weren't immediately down-stream in the air-flow.  Delta-IV uses the same foam and will continue to do so without problems.  Why? No re-entry TPS components down-stream.

It sounds like a 'duh' realisation but it wouldn't surprise me if no-one at all had thought of this issue until the first strikes started showing up and everyone seemed confident that they weren't dangerous enough to justify a stand-down, an ET redesign and the consequential loss of lifting capability because of the heavier ET.
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Offline Art LeBrun

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #370 on: 02/12/2013 03:26 PM »
I would bet my last dollar someone spoke or wrote of the foam danger but was ignored. Engineers are a sharp group.
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Offline Wayne Hale

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #371 on: 02/14/2013 12:11 AM »
The danger of debris from the ET was documented in a hazard report approved by the shuttle program. The error there was the categorization that there were strong controls for the hazard. Does that constitute engineering documentation?  I think it does. Does that mean that everybody was completely satisfied?  Of course not. But you could say that about the thousand other hazard analysis reports on all the other parts the shuttle as well.  The point is not that somebody was dissatisfied but that nobody was dissatisfied enough to make an issue of it.

Offline Archibald

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #372 on: 02/14/2013 06:51 AM »
This document has some clues about the decision process.
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/columbia/report/inflight.html

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Offline psloss

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #373 on: 02/14/2013 11:40 AM »
This document has some clues about the decision process.
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/columbia/report/inflight.html
That's a section of the CAIB report, Section 6.3.  The decision process predates the STS-107 launch -- significantly.  Note that Chapter 6 begins some nineteen pages prior to this point.

The short-term, mainstream attention span understandably focuses on what happened in-flight in large part due to the fate of the crew; however, there was still a large price to pay beyond the lives of the crew and that could only have been prevented before launch.
« Last Edit: 02/14/2013 11:41 AM by psloss »

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #374 on: 02/14/2013 02:22 PM »
I'd have to say, "be confident that you've designed a good system", from the o-rings on up.

The fundamental issue was relying on external foam without an external skin, or a kevlar reinforcing net, or something other than only the tensile strength of the foam at max-Q.  ...

All the ... rockets before shuttle had skins, and all the ... rockets planned for today have skins.

It isn't a 'big' rocket issue, it's a 'what's in the debris path' issue.


It's not "bigness". It's about the "skin".  I modified your quote of my post to remove the size of the rocket.  Size does come into the issue when the manratedness of Delta is considered, and when the throw weight of the LV is considered.

Quote
The foam wouldn't have been an issue if criticality-0 components weren't immediately down-stream in the air-flow.

Even so, you must admit that having removable foam could have, in principle, informed the design of the downstream components.  (D'oh?)  And even supposing that they could not have modeled this in the wind tunnel, the foam hits had been going on for years, yet they persisted in flying.  The only solution they could impose on the faulty skinless or netless design was to pay more attention to the foam installation.  The trade always was safety versus lifting capability.

Quote
Delta-IV uses the same foam and will continue to do so without problems.  Why? No re-entry TPS components down-stream.

It sounds like a 'duh' realisation but it wouldn't surprise me if no-one at all had thought of this issue until the first strikes started showing up and everyone seemed confident that they weren't dangerous enough to justify a stand-down, an ET redesign and the consequential loss of lifting capability because of the heavier ET.

Otherwise, I pretty much agree.
« Last Edit: 03/04/2013 01:06 PM by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Jester

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #375 on: 03/04/2013 12:53 PM »
‏@waynehale (march 1st)

25 years ago today, Tom Holloway selected 3 new Flight Directors: Bob Castle, Rob Kelso, and me. The Three Amigos! Seems like yesterday.


Couldn't find anything from 1988.....

STS030-S-118 (8 May 1989 ) --- The landing phase of the space shuttle Atlantis is monitored by three flight directors in the Flight Control Room (FCR) of the Johnson Space Center's (JSC) Mission Control Center (MCC). Studying the data at the Flight Director Console are Ronald D. Dittemore, Alan L. (Lee) Briscoe and N. Wayne Hale. Moments earlier, Atlantis touched down on Runway 22 at Edwards Air Force Bakse (Note monitor).
« Last Edit: 03/04/2013 12:56 PM by Jester »

Offline psloss

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #376 on: 03/04/2013 02:24 PM »
‏@waynehale (march 1st)

25 years ago today, Tom Holloway selected 3 new Flight Directors: Bob Castle, Rob Kelso, and me. The Three Amigos! Seems like yesterday.


Couldn't find anything from 1988.....
FWIW, the public news release was on March 10; "88-007 -- THREE NEW FLIGHT DIRECTORS NAMED".

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #377 on: 03/04/2013 02:34 PM »
Out of interest - to either Mr Hale or the other FDs on here - how do you get selected?

Is there some sort of FD Exam to qualify? Natural promotion within MOD after being a controller, etc?

Offline Wayne Hale

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #378 on: 03/04/2013 09:28 PM »
Nothing mysterious.  Position openings are announced in the Civil Service system (used to be paper, now its web based); applications are accepted using a standard form; a committee reviews all the applications and certifies those that meet the acceptable level; the selecting official interviews the applicants; makes his picks; reviews the selections with his superiors; makes the announcement and does more paperwork to get the transfers.  Standard civil service procedure.  Of course they will screen you out if you don't have the qualifications - which includes previous experience in mission control . . . .

Offline elmarko

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #379 on: 03/05/2013 08:30 AM »
I'm not sure how I acquired it but I have a document here called:

Flight Controller Interviewing & Hiring Guidelines (Rev B).pdf

Seriously can't remember where I downloaded it, probably from some forum. Should I post it? :)

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