Author Topic: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site  (Read 235435 times)

Offline erioladastra

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #320 on: 02/01/2013 01:02 AM »
Interesting question from one of Wayne's readers on his blog:

Quote
Quick question; do new flight controllers in any way review the Apollo-1, Challenger and Columbia accident histories for historical and lessons learned perspectives as part of their training activities?

I'm not sure about flight controllers.

It is part of their training. In particular, issues of resource management (leadership, situational awareness, communication, and decision-making) are emphasized. That is a change from how Apollo 1 and Challenger were handled in training pre-Columbia; those earlier training lessons were more just recaps of the history.

CAIB report is required reading.  And people still regularly reference it.  Apollo 1 and Challenger not trained that much.  Apollo 13 is more relevant to flight controllers. 

Online Chris Bergin

Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #321 on: 02/01/2013 01:10 AM »
AP's gone after a sensationalist angle relating to informing the crew, per his blog posts.

AP, being the big wire feed, means this story will be in pretty much every mainstream paper and news site on the planet (we're talking 1000s buy into their feed as it's cheaper to run AP feed than hire writers), and some will not hold back on a snappy headline.

And I've just seen one of the news stations here run 20 seconds saying NASA knew the crew were already dead, but decided to keep it secret. Oh dear.

Phone call from me in two mins to correct.

EDIT: And that's complete, as I know the copy editor on shift at Sky News, so that's all toned down :)
« Last Edit: 02/01/2013 01:23 AM by Chris Bergin »

Offline AJW

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #322 on: 02/01/2013 01:43 AM »
Here is a link including video footage of how the story was presented on the news in Houston.

http://www.click2houston.com/news/Ex-employee-NASA-knew-about-possible-problem-on-Columbia/-/1735978/18361090/-/kx63x7/-/index.html

Offline robertross

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #323 on: 02/01/2013 01:51 AM »
...
And I've just seen one of the news stations here run 20 seconds saying NASA knew the crew were already dead, but decided to keep it secret. Oh dear.

Phone call from me in two mins to correct.

EDIT: And that's complete, as I know the copy editor on shift at Sky News, so that's all toned down :)

Another 2 points to Gryffindor.

Kudos Chris.
« Last Edit: 02/01/2013 02:24 PM by robertross »
Remembering those who made the ultimate sacrifice for our rights & freedoms, and for those injured, visible or otherwise, in that fight.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #324 on: 02/01/2013 05:48 AM »
If the press keeps asking NASA can say that after Columbia's accident NASA learnt to inspect Space Shuttles when they arrive at the ISS and to have a second spacecraft ready to fly as a LON (Launch On Need).  In future similar procedures can be applied to other spacecraft.

Offline psloss

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #325 on: 02/01/2013 12:49 PM »
AP's gone after a sensationalist angle relating to informing the crew, per his blog posts.
Rick Husband was emailed a video clip of the foam strike.  Multiple facets of this are too subtle for headline writers (and subtlety is bad for sales), but not surprising as these misunderstandings went on post-loss ten years ago, too.

Offline Wayne Hale

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #326 on: 02/01/2013 12:53 PM »
Just had a phone call from a news media staff person who was so clueless about space, the shuttle, or the loss of Columbia.  No wonder the media gets so much wrong; no sense of history, no research, just zip out a half thought through sensationalist headline.

There are plenty of responsible journalists, the goofballs make their job harder.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Offline rdale

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #327 on: 02/01/2013 01:27 PM »
  In future similar procedures can be applied to other spacecraft.

Don't want to keep going OT, but I think it is a very bad idea to always require a backup spacecraft ready to fly every time we send a manned mission up. Do any of the current visiting vehicles to the ISS get full vehicle exterior reviews before docking?

Offline Jim

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #328 on: 02/01/2013 02:10 PM »
If the press keeps asking NASA can say that after Columbia's accident NASA learnt to inspect Space Shuttles when they arrive at the ISS and to have a second spacecraft ready to fly as a LON (Launch On Need).  In future similar procedures can be applied to other spacecraft.

not applicable to other spacecraft

Offline psloss

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #329 on: 02/01/2013 02:58 PM »
Jim Oberg: "Top 10 myths surrounding NASA's Columbia space shuttle disaster"

http://science.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/01/16804343-top-10-myths-surrounding-nasas-columbia-space-shuttle-disaster?lite

(See #9.)
« Last Edit: 02/01/2013 02:59 PM by psloss »

Online Chris Bergin

Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #330 on: 02/01/2013 03:14 PM »
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2013/02/sts-107-remembering-columbia-crew/

An amazing 5,000+ word feature by Chris Gebhardt covering STS-107's actual mission, as opposed to a focus on the EOM.

Offline wolfpack

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #331 on: 02/01/2013 03:23 PM »
Just had a phone call from a news media staff person who was so incorrect about space, the shuttle, or the loss of Columbia.  No wonder the media gets so much wrong; no sense of history, no research, just zip out a half thought through sensationalist headline.

There are plenty of responsible journalists, the goofballs make their job harder.

Thanks for letting me vent.


Our local news website just ran the AP feed, if that's what you're talking about.

If it's any consolation, I've written AP about that particular writer in the past. Namely for misspelling the names of just about all of ISS Expedition 31 and calling Falcon 9 a spacecraft.

Offline Jester

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #332 on: 02/01/2013 03:32 PM »
https://twitter.com/waynehale/statuses/297149802481844225

Wayne Hale ‏@waynehale

Sensationalist media have misunderstood some of my blog posts and now I get to try to clean up the mess. Oy vey!

Offline Peter NASA

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #333 on: 02/01/2013 03:37 PM »
https://twitter.com/waynehale/statuses/297149802481844225

Wayne Hale ‏@waynehale

Sensationalist media have misunderstood some of my blog posts and now I get to try to clean up the mess. Oy vey!

And then retweets the AP article that's causing this mass media frenzy, which is a green light to media as they will assume he's supportive of it.

Offline Peter NASA

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #334 on: 02/01/2013 03:38 PM »
AP's gone after a sensationalist angle relating to informing the crew, per his blog posts.

AP, being the big wire feed, means this story will be in pretty much every mainstream paper and news site on the planet (we're talking 1000s buy into their feed as it's cheaper to run AP feed than hire writers), and some will not hold back on a snappy headline.

And I've just seen one of the news stations here run 20 seconds saying NASA knew the crew were already dead, but decided to keep it secret. Oh dear.

Phone call from me in two mins to correct.

EDIT: And that's complete, as I know the copy editor on shift at Sky News, so that's all toned down :)

That's why you are a breath of fresh air.

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2013/02/sts-107-remembering-columbia-crew/

An amazing 5,000+ word feature by Chris Gebhardt covering STS-107's actual mission, as opposed to a focus on the EOM.

That's why this site is a breath of fresh air.

Offline Targeteer

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #335 on: 02/01/2013 11:01 PM »
PBS ran an excellent show, titled simply Space Shuttle, about STS-107 focusing on Ilan Roman's participation today (very oddly at 0200 locally) that I recommend to everyone.  I've only seen it listed once in my Dishnetwork program guide that forecasts about a week so I don't know if or when it will be re-broadcast.  Hopefully PBS will make it available online.

PBS then re-aired the 2008 NOVA episode on the accident, a sobering watch.
Best quote heard during an inspection, "I was unaware that I was the only one who was aware."

Offline iamlucky13

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #336 on: 02/01/2013 11:24 PM »
Our local news website just ran the AP feed, if that's what you're talking about.

If it's any consolation, I've written AP about that particular writer in the past. Namely for misspelling the names of just about all of ISS Expedition 31 and calling Falcon 9 a spacecraft.

I regret to point out that even if the AP editors are capable of understanding basics like the difference between a spacecraft and a launch vehicle, you are assuming they care.

Here is a link including video footage of how the story was presented on the news in Houston.

http://www.click2houston.com/news/Ex-employee-NASA-knew-about-possible-problem-on-Columbia/-/1735978/18361090/-/kx63x7/-/index.html

Holy ****! Even beyond the serious misinterpretation of Mr. Hale's post, they've paired quotes by both Wayne and JimO out of context to make it sound like they disagree fundamentally with each other.

Offline Targeteer

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #337 on: 02/01/2013 11:38 PM »
Jim Oberg: "Top 10 myths surrounding NASA's Columbia space shuttle disaster"

http://science.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/01/16804343-top-10-myths-surrounding-nasas-columbia-space-shuttle-disaster?lite

(See #9.)

1. The vehicle blew up when it hit the atmosphere.

Columbia was lost when the air drag across its left wing, created by turbulence around a growing hole on the leading edge, jerked its nose to the left too strongly for steering rockets to overcome. It then turned end over end at least once before aerodynamic braking broke its back and tore it into pieces. The crew cabin was then crushed and torn apart by the severe deceleration.


Didn't the CAIB tie the loss of control to the hydraulic system going dry and the APUs shutting down (with the resulting loss of aerodynamic control)?  The crew apparently attempted to restart the APUs according to data before it was lost. 

I do remember the report stating that the steering jets were continuously firing, at their control limit, and almost out of fuel as control was lost as Jim stated .
« Last Edit: 02/01/2013 11:39 PM by Targeteer »
Best quote heard during an inspection, "I was unaware that I was the only one who was aware."

Offline ciscosdad

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #338 on: 02/02/2013 01:35 AM »
From my recollection of the report, the sequence was:
The hole in the wing leading edge allowed plasma to progressively destroy the inner structure of the wing, including some hydraulic lines.
Normal operation of the hydraulic system (to move aerodynamic surfaces) leaked hydraulic fluid until the system was empty.
This loss of hydraulic power meant the vehicle could no longer maintain a controlled attitude, and it pitched up, breaking up not long after.
I think the APU's were working fine for some time after hydraulic power was lost, and were not a contributing cause.
There is a full report on L2.

Offline robertross

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #339 on: 02/02/2013 02:34 AM »
Ben,
The more pertinent question for the future is why was there not better ascent imagery?
Keep digging.

You know, I still don't think this point has been addressed or answered by anyone here, at least to any satisfaction I have seen.

I think it requires more than just NASA. It requires the backing of all involved to understand just what is at stake here. The people think a program is great, or that it isn't, yet in the end they love to see those rockets go up, or those footprints on another body in our universe. So they get the enjoyment they seek, and I believe that is why NASA has been backed very well over the years.

No, I think it requires the 100% backing of the politicians, and the funding they allow NASA to have to fullfill certain requirements. And that seems to be the crux of it, in my mind, after reading Wayne's comments on his blog. Even from the early days of shuttle & the loss of Challenger, the pressures were there, not for prestige or advancement, or even relavence, but for keeping costs in line so there is a perception that there is value for the money spent.

And now the swing: we are going down the same road again. Look at congress: funding levels that have been held constant (which when put in terms of annual inflation, especially in aerospace) means NASA is under-funded (especially/specifically with regards to HSF) for the workscope initially presented and aspired to. Throw in a lack of direction, and program cancellations (which often leads to loss of great talent), and you are no longer working to maximum potential.

I truly fear NASA is facing a re-hash of the very same problems that caused all that grief over the years. This is a cutting-edge field, and demands the understanding that significant resources are required if you wish to reap any of the benefits, especially ones that are as yet unknown.

I wish NASA well, and hope that congress & the appropriations commitee & the POTUS can see that those things which are key drivers of the economy are given the proper respect they deserve.
« Last Edit: 02/02/2013 02:34 AM by robertross »
Remembering those who made the ultimate sacrifice for our rights & freedoms, and for those injured, visible or otherwise, in that fight.

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