Author Topic: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site  (Read 234120 times)

Offline KEdward5

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #280 on: 01/07/2013 03:21 PM »
Nothing they could do? But didn't they have Atlantis already stacking in the VAB? Couldn't they got her up as a LON?

Online Chris Bergin

Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #281 on: 01/07/2013 03:31 PM »
Nothing they could do? But didn't they have Atlantis already stacking in the VAB? Couldn't they got her up as a LON?

I don't think Atlantis was in the VAB, I think the stack was, so the flow would have been rediculously accelerated.

You'd be talking a very rushed flow, Columbia powered down (Group C powerdown?). Risking Atlantis to the same damage during ascent....

....and all based on confirming damage they couldn't confirm on Columbia.

Way too many ifs and buts - and risks, but the point is they didn't know Columbia was badly damaged.

Offline psloss

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #282 on: 01/07/2013 03:32 PM »
Nothing they could do? But didn't they have Atlantis already stacking in the VAB? Couldn't they got her up as a LON?
Read the blog; the CAIB report also covers it exhaustively.

Launch On Need mission support was a result of the STS-107 accident; it didn't exist prior to it.

Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #283 on: 01/07/2013 06:23 PM »
The thing that struck me repeatedly during that... difficult read was the repeated impression Wayne gives that the STS-107 team (and he laudably admits that he shared that malady to a certain degree) were literally psychologically incapable of admitting to themselves that there was a serious problem.  Because of that, no serous attempt was made to consider mitigating action because no-one honestly thought it would be necessary.

History records the rest.
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Offline Danny Dot

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #284 on: 01/07/2013 06:40 PM »
The latest blog post really describes the cultural issues that existed back then. And the improvement after that is most evidently shown by those FRR articles and great L2 FRR briefing content.

The style of writing is really good. I wonder if Wayne will write a book of his very own... 

I hope he does.

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Offline baldusi

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #285 on: 01/07/2013 07:44 PM »
The thing that struck me repeatedly during that... difficult read was the repeated impression Wayne gives that the STS-107 team (and he laudably admits that he shared that malady to a certain degree) were literally psychologically incapable of admitting to themselves that there was a serious problem.  Because of that, no serous attempt was made to consider mitigating action because no-one honestly thought it would be necessary.

History records the rest.
I rather read it that they didn't got the extra mile because they considered that there was no possibility of solving the sort of issue that they ended up having. As the saying goes "if you can't solve it, the it's not a problem, it's a fact".

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #286 on: 01/08/2013 03:31 AM »
Problems re-occur.  Inquests allow you to work out what to do next time.

A spacecraft with a damaged heatshield cannot re-enter.
Manned spacecraft are normally equipped with a docking or berthing port.
COTS has given NASA the ability to launch cargo resupply missions using spacecraft with a berthing port.

When manned missions restart can a Launch On Need (LON) cargo vehicle be ready for launch with food, water and air?
It will probably need fitting with an NDS docking port.

Offline Jim

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #287 on: 01/08/2013 04:07 AM »
No

Offline RobbieCape

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #288 on: 01/08/2013 04:15 AM »
No

Come on Jim. At least quote what you're responding to, because posting two letters really isn't worth it. This thread is too high a quality for it to become a Jim yes or no thread.

Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #289 on: 01/08/2013 08:58 AM »
A spacecraft with a damaged heatshield cannot re-enter.
Manned spacecraft are normally equipped with a docking or berthing port.
COTS has given NASA the ability to launch cargo resupply missions using spacecraft with a berthing port.

The thing worth remembering is that, with the exception of Dreamchaser, all currently under-development spacecraft are ballistic capsules with some form of protection over the main heat-shield on the blunt end.  Because of this, it would require a statistically far more extreme failure to damage the heat shield sufficiently to rule out a safe re-entry (so extreme that it would probably be an automatic LOC anyway).

FWIW, I think that having a quick-response rescue vehicle (say, CST-100 on top of an all-solid launcher), that would launch uncrewed to an Earth-orbiting spacecraft for crew recovery in the event of a return vehicle failure is something that should at least be considered.  However, I don't think that the pressure to develop such a thing would exist until there are multiple LEO space-stations with non-Governmental crews and residents.

I suspect that, should CCDev/CCiCAP (or whatever you want to call it this week) reach its optimum conclusion, there could be multiple crewed vehicles available.  In that event, NASA probably would want to solicit proposals for such a capability to be developed as part of a sort of 'space coast guard' rescue capability.  NASA would probably not develop or deploy such a spacecraft but encouraging the development of space technology and capabilities does fall into the agency's role.  Nonetheless, I think it would be hard to get such a vehicle funded unless there were a lot more lives on the line, hence my point about multiple commercial stations.
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Offline avollhar

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #290 on: 01/08/2013 09:42 AM »
When manned missions restart can a Launch On Need (LON) cargo vehicle be ready for launch with food, water and air?
It will probably need fitting with an NDS docking port.

My guess to what Jim's 'no' is referring is the lack of power. Food, water and air won't get you far enough as the Shuttle fuel cells deplete and cannot be refueled on-orbit. No power = no heating + no life support. The latter might work in emergency situations without but not the first..

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #291 on: 01/08/2013 10:01 AM »
When manned missions restart can a Launch On Need (LON) cargo vehicle be ready for launch with food, water and air?
It will probably need fitting with an NDS docking port.

My guess to what Jim's 'no' is referring is the lack of power. Food, water and air won't get you far enough as the Shuttle fuel cells deplete and cannot be refueled on-orbit. No power = no heating + no life support. The latter might work in emergency situations without but not the first..

The Shuttle possibly could not support in flight refuelling of the fuel cells, but the Dragons have solar panels.

This year is 2013.  It is not too late for NASA to introduce a new safety rule that says e.g. "By no later that 2020, manned spacecraft shall support in flight refuelling of all consumables used by life support systems, including electrical power".
« Last Edit: 01/08/2013 10:05 AM by A_M_Swallow »

Offline Jim

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #292 on: 01/08/2013 02:43 PM »

This year is 2013.  It is not too late for NASA to introduce a new safety rule that says e.g. "By no later that 2020, manned spacecraft shall support in flight refuelling of all consumables used by life support systems, including electrical power".

That is not within NASA's responsibilities.  NASA does not control or license access to space.  That is for the FAA to do.   Commercial vehicles do not have to answer to NASA requirements, if they are not under NASA contract.

And the FAA is not going to make such rules.

Online Chris Bergin

Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #293 on: 01/12/2013 02:13 AM »
Latest part:

http://waynehale.wordpress.com/2013/01/12/after-ten-years-too-little-too-late/

Without being presumptuous, I've got a feeling the hardest reads are yet to come on these recollections.

Offline yg1968

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #294 on: 01/12/2013 04:06 AM »
Sorry for the dumb questions. But why does Wayne Hale say that the DOD images wouldn't have made a difference? Couldn't the astronauts have stayed at the ISS or return on an emergency Soyuz?
« Last Edit: 01/12/2013 04:07 AM by yg1968 »

Online DaveS

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #295 on: 01/12/2013 04:12 AM »
Sorry for the dumb questions. But why does Wayne Hale say that the DOD images wouldn't have made a difference? Couldn't the astronauts have stayed at the ISS or return on an emergency Soyuz?
STS-107 did not go ISS as it was not an ISS assembly mission. It was a stand-alone micro-g research mission.
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Offline yg1968

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #296 on: 01/12/2013 04:23 AM »
Thanks.

Offline AS-503

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #297 on: 01/12/2013 05:05 AM »
Remember, Columbia was "too heavy in the rear end" as Bob Crippen said at the STS-107 memorial for a flight to the ISS.

Columbia was too heavy to fly to the high inclination of the ISS with a usefull payload. Thus, STS-107 was the many-times delayed science mission.

Online DaveS

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #298 on: 01/12/2013 05:19 AM »
Remember, Columbia was "too heavy in the rear end" as Bob Crippen said at the STS-107 memorial for a flight to the ISS.
This is a myth really. She was to have flown STS-118 in November 2003, a mission to deliver and install the S5 Short Spacer ITS along with a SpaceHAB SLM with supplies to ISS.

What she couldn't launch was the big heavy trusses.
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Offline psloss

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Re: Wayne Hale sets up his own blog site
« Reply #299 on: 01/12/2013 01:40 PM »
Latest part:

http://waynehale.wordpress.com/2013/01/12/after-ten-years-too-little-too-late/

Without being presumptuous, I've got a feeling the hardest reads are yet to come on these recollections.
Probably depends on one's perspective; I definitely appreciate Wayne sharing his recollections and perspective.  (Also interesting little bit at the end.)

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