Author Topic: When its all said and done.....  (Read 6968 times)

Offline HappyMartian

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Re: When its all said and done.....
« Reply #20 on: 07/08/2010 10:34 AM »
We need leadership with vision.  I don't see any in the near future.  Leadership by committee is what we have now.  A camel is a horse designed by committee.  No one is in charge of anything who has executive experience right now.  From the white house on down.  Leadership will supply a vision and choose a path to follow.  This has not been done. 
   Why is "leadership" a panacea? Under Griffin, NASA had distinct leadership, from a leader with executive experience, who did not (purportedly) lead by committee, who was absolutely in charge, who supplied a vision, who chose a path to follow, and it was enforced on down. 
    How'd that work out?
    -Alex
Under Griffin, NASA and its contractors were employed developing new rocket motors, rocket engines, launch vehicles, spacecraft, spacecraft escape and recovery systems, test stands, launch pads, factories, manufacturing processes, and ground support infrastructure.

Under Bolden/Garver/Obama, NASA and its contractors are laying off thousands and shutting down all of the above.  The Agency seems to have been directed to rapidly form itself into a decaying representation of U.S. national decline. 

 - Ed Kyle


Those who speak the truth shall be nailed to trees. Ed, we like you. If you see the mob coming, run away very fast!

Cheers!
"The Moon is the most accessible destination for realizing commercial, exploration and scientific objectives beyond low Earth orbit." - LEAG

Offline HappyMartian

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Re: When its all said and done.....
« Reply #21 on: 07/08/2010 10:49 AM »
I think the argument will continue until the whole HLV plan quietly dies (several years down the road): Once CST-100 on Atlas V or Dragon on F9 has sucessfully delivered the first US crew to ISS, the media will play this up to the hilt as "the USA is back in space",  people will say "NASA's back in business" and "USA! USA!". Then, ISS will be extended to 2028 (a move marketed as keeping our international partners happy) and HLV will be pushed down the line (as a post-ISS project), probably via another 5-year study on breakthroughs.

If NASA sticks with the LEO taxi / Orion CRV plan, I wonder whether the initial SDHLV might be a J-120 instead of J-130.

Launch an MPLM with each CRV Orion. With no LAS, and possibly a lighter Orion, that seems more of a J-120 payload.

Build J-130 & J-24x as a later Block when Orion CEV is available for exploration missions - eg Lunar flyby, etc.

cheers, Martin

I've had images of the J-120H flying through my brain for some time now, but I'd take a J-130 and be quite happy with that. But this is a secret, so don't tell anyone!

Cheers!
« Last Edit: 07/08/2010 10:50 AM by HappyMartian »
"The Moon is the most accessible destination for realizing commercial, exploration and scientific objectives beyond low Earth orbit." - LEAG

Offline gospacex

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Re: When its all said and done.....
« Reply #22 on: 07/08/2010 03:40 PM »
   Why is "leadership" a panacea? Under Griffin, NASA had distinct leadership, from a leader with executive experience, who did not (purportedly) lead by committee, who was absolutely in charge, who supplied a vision, who chose a path to follow, and it was enforced on down. 
    How'd that work out?
    -Alex
Under Griffin, NASA and its contractors were employed developing new rocket motors, rocket engines, launch vehicles, spacecraft, spacecraft escape and recovery systems, test stands, launch pads, factories, manufacturing processes, and ground support infrastructure.

So did Musk. But he did it MUCH cheaper, and he actually managed to complete his projects.

Griffin, with $20bn/yr handed to him on the plate every year, wouldn't produce any working LV or spacecraft until 2016 *at best*, and after that he'd only had duplicated EELV, at great cost. Ares V will still take about 5 years to complete, minimum.

We don't need this kind of development, thank you very much.

Offline spacenut

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Re: When its all said and done.....
« Reply #23 on: 07/08/2010 04:50 PM »
Leadership knows when to change directions, to achieve the stated goals.  For instance.  We want to go to Mars.  We have a plan.  Ares I didn't work, so there should have been a plan B.  Use the lowest cost, most bang for the buck.  Now, I see no stated goals and objectives.  Objective should still be Mars, how do we get there the quickest and be pragmatic enough to choose something that won't be scrapped in 20 years.

Offline Downix

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Re: When its all said and done.....
« Reply #24 on: 07/08/2010 06:34 PM »
Leadership knows when to change directions, to achieve the stated goals.  For instance.  We want to go to Mars.  We have a plan.  Ares I didn't work, so there should have been a plan B.  Use the lowest cost, most bang for the buck.  Now, I see no stated goals and objectives.  Objective should still be Mars, how do we get there the quickest and be pragmatic enough to choose something that won't be scrapped in 20 years.
The orbital fuel depot seems a solid step if using an EELV solution.
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline spacenut

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Re: When its all said and done.....
« Reply #25 on: 07/08/2010 07:28 PM »
Yes fuel depots do offer a solution.  I think we do need at least a 75 ton launcher for larger Mars objects, Moon base also.  Slow tugs for material and supplies, fast for human transport.  I think there should also be a reusable LEO to L1 or L2 staging area.  A reusable Mars transport, and a reusable Mars lander.  Fuel would have to be carried to the various outposts, eventually manufactured on the Moon and Mars to avoid transport.  Nuclear-solar-electric propulsion is a must for long term plans.  I think the Ajax plan for heavy lift is great, can later be modified for flyback boosters, and parachute back SSME's, or a plug nozzle engine on the bottom of the core to reuse. 

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