Author Topic: SpaceX COTS Demo 1 Updates  (Read 651021 times)

Offline MP99

Re: COTS Demo 1
« Reply #1160 on: 12/09/2010 04:35 pm »
Quote
SpaceX traced the root cause of the cracks, located in the aft end of the nozzle, to a GN2 vent line that “caused flutter of the thinnest portion of the nozzle extension, creating the cracks,” the company said in a statement.

If the nozzle is fragile enough to be damaged by a GN2 vent line, is it likely that it would also have failed under operation? I presume the stresses are substantial, even at the open end of the nozzle.

cheers, Martin

Offline Jim

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Re: COTS Demo 1
« Reply #1161 on: 12/09/2010 04:38 pm »
Just to close this one out, it was not a "process failure," unless your definition of "process failure" is so broad as to be "anything that causes failure that could have been prevented,"

Quote

SpaceX traced the root cause of the cracks, located in the aft end of the nozzle, to a GN2 vent line that “caused flutter of the thinnest portion of the nozzle extension, creating the cracks,” the company said in a statement.

Engineers cut off the bottom 4 ft. of the nozzle extension and corrected the root cause by diffusing the vent. “The extension increases the efficiency of the Merlin engine in vacuum and is installed by default on all upper-stage Merlin engines, but that efficiency increase is not required for this mission,” company spokeswoman Kirstin Brost said in a statement.

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/spacex-dragon-spacecraft-successful-test-flight-101208.html

Yes, it was process failure.  A similar issue happened with a vent on the first launch and it disabled the roll control nozzle.  The proper process would been to look at all vents to prevent similar problems.
« Last Edit: 12/09/2010 04:44 pm by Jim »

Offline Dappa

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Re: COTS Demo 1
« Reply #1162 on: 12/09/2010 04:39 pm »
SpaceX traced the root cause of the cracks, located in the aft end of the nozzle, to a GN2 vent line that “caused flutter of the thinnest portion of the nozzle extension, creating the cracks,” the company said in a statement.

If the nozzle is fragile enough to be damaged by a GN2 vent line, is it likely that it would also have failed under operation? I presume the stresses are substantial, even at the open end of the nozzle.

cheers, Martin
The stresses are quite low in that part of the nozzle, and it would probably not have failed under operation, according to Elon in yesterday's press conference.

Offline Lee Jay

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Re: COTS Demo 1
« Reply #1163 on: 12/09/2010 04:42 pm »
... and most crucially, 3. the opportunity to review COTS-2 prox-ops and rendezvous data outside of the time-pressure of a flight environment.

ATV 1 stayed on-orbit while that was done.

Online Robotbeat

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Re: COTS Demo 1
« Reply #1164 on: 12/09/2010 04:43 pm »
Quote
SpaceX traced the root cause of the cracks, located in the aft end of the nozzle, to a GN2 vent line that “caused flutter of the thinnest portion of the nozzle extension, creating the cracks,” the company said in a statement.

If the nozzle is fragile enough to be damaged by a GN2 vent line, is it likely that it would also have failed under operation? I presume the stresses are substantial, even at the open end of the nozzle.

cheers, Martin
If it hadn't been damaged by the GN2 vent, it wouldn't have failed under operation. After it was damaged, it still likely wouldn't have failed during operation (though risky). The stresses aren't substantial at the end of the nozzle.
« Last Edit: 12/09/2010 04:44 pm by Robotbeat »
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Offline Kabloona

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Re: COTS Demo 1
« Reply #1165 on: 12/09/2010 04:48 pm »
Quote
SpaceX traced the root cause of the cracks, located in the aft end of the nozzle, to a GN2 vent line that “caused flutter of the thinnest portion of the nozzle extension, creating the cracks,” the company said in a statement.

If the nozzle is fragile enough to be damaged by a GN2 vent line, is it likely that it would also have failed under operation? I presume the stresses are substantial, even at the open end of the nozzle.

cheers, Martin

No, the stresses at the end of the nozzle are trivial. That's why the extention is so thin at the end. The crack was caused by GN2 impingement that caused "flutter", a local oscillation that was forceful enough to cause metal fatigue/cracking. SpaceX stated that the flight stresses were so low in that area of the nozzle that the cracks probably wouldn't even have caused a failure if they hadn't been caught.

Offline mnagy

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Re: COTS Demo 1
« Reply #1166 on: 12/09/2010 06:27 pm »
The secret payload was a wheel of cheese. They posted photos on their facebook page.

Offline Kabloona

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Re: COTS Demo 1
« Reply #1167 on: 12/09/2010 06:51 pm »
"Le Brouere" is a French cheese, but perhaps a big South African cheese would have been more appropriate...

Offline jimvela

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Re: COTS Demo 1
« Reply #1168 on: 12/09/2010 07:00 pm »
Yes, it was process failure.  A similar issue happened with a vent on the first launch and it disabled the roll control nozzle.  The proper process would been to look at all vents to prevent similar problems.

Wasn't the vent that caused this issue re-located as well after the first F9 flight? (e.g. the fix for F9 F1 is part of the root cause for the nozzle problem on F9 F2).

Sometimes one system's fix is another system's root cause...

Offline ugordan

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Re: COTS Demo 1
« Reply #1169 on: 12/09/2010 07:07 pm »
Wasn't the vent that caused this issue re-located as well after the first F9 flight? (e.g. the fix for F9 F1 is part of the root cause for the nozzle problem on F9 F2).

Are you thinking about the GOX vent on MVac?

Offline brihath

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Re: COTS Demo 1
« Reply #1170 on: 12/09/2010 07:19 pm »
The secret payload was a wheel of cheese. They posted photos on their facebook page.

This gives new meaning to the book "Who Moved my Cheese?"

Offline go4mars

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Re: COTS Demo 1
« Reply #1171 on: 12/09/2010 07:38 pm »
It was like being parched and thirsty on a hot day.  Bored, unenthused.  All of a sudden sweet relief smashes through the sky from orbit to quench my thirst yesterday.  Just like the kids in this video:



Now I feel refreshed!
« Last Edit: 12/09/2010 07:38 pm by go4mars »
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Offline mmeijeri

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Re: COTS Demo 1
« Reply #1172 on: 12/09/2010 07:40 pm »
The secret payload was a wheel of cheese. They posted photos on their facebook page.

Aren't you glad that thing didn't explode...  ;D
Pro-tip: you don't have to be a jerk if someone doesn't agree with your theories

Offline Kabloona

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Re: COTS Demo 1
« Reply #1173 on: 12/09/2010 07:41 pm »
The secret payload was a wheel of cheese. They posted photos on their facebook page.

This gives new meaning to the book "Who Moved my Cheese?"

Evidently an inside joke, but some excerpts from the Wikipedia article on the Monty Python cheese sketch may give some clues:

"The idea for the sketch came after a day of shooting in Folkestone Harbour, where John Cleese threw up repeatedly. During the drive back, Graham Chapman said that Cleese should eat something and asked if he fancied anything; Cleese replied that he fancied a piece of cheese."

"Cleese remarks that it's not much of a cheese shop, but Palin insists it is the best in the district due to its cleanliness, to which Cleese replies "Well, it's certainly uncontaminated by cheese."
« Last Edit: 12/09/2010 07:52 pm by Kabloona »

Offline Kabloona

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Re: COTS Demo 1
« Reply #1174 on: 12/09/2010 08:00 pm »
This may shed further light on the "Space cheese":

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/somerset/8175347.stm

Offline Antares

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Re: COTS Demo 1
« Reply #1175 on: 12/09/2010 08:03 pm »
One crucial thing that has not been mentioned in this discussion is whether Dragon has enough consumables on board to do the fly-around check outs that ATV and HTV did on their first flights.  It could be impossible to combine the remaining Demo missions due to that limitation.
If I like something on NSF, it's probably because I know it to be accurate.  Every once in a while, it's just something I agree with.  Facts generally receive the former.

Offline cuddihy

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Re: COTS Demo 1
« Reply #1176 on: 12/09/2010 08:06 pm »

Yes, it was process failure.  A similar issue happened with a vent on the first launch and it disabled the roll control nozzle.  The proper process would been to look at all vents to prevent similar problems.


sigh...

First I've heard of that. (thought SpaceX initially said it was a thermal issue on the 2nd stage roll control nozzle)...

Still not convinced this is a process issue either way.

Offline Kabloona

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Re: COTS Demo 1
« Reply #1177 on: 12/09/2010 08:09 pm »

Yes, it was process failure.  A similar issue happened with a vent on the first launch and it disabled the roll control nozzle.  The proper process would been to look at all vents to prevent similar problems.


sigh...

First I've heard of that. (thought SpaceX initially said it was a thermal issue on the 2nd stage roll control nozzle)...

Still not convinced this is a process issue either way.

Well, it turned out to be a venting issue that caused the thermal problem: GOX venting onto the roll control actuator.

Offline Antares

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Re: COTS Demo 1
« Reply #1178 on: 12/09/2010 08:11 pm »
Yes, IIRC up to 2 years in flight for Dragon Lab.  Mind you, checked their datasheet and it doesn't specify.

So far as lifeboat goes, I'd expect it wouldn't be more than 12 months.

There's a difference between being in orbit for a certain amount of time under SpaceX control and being attached to the Station for a certain amount of time.  In the latter, there are probability of no penetration requirements to be met.  In the former, SpaceX can do whatever it wants.
If I like something on NSF, it's probably because I know it to be accurate.  Every once in a while, it's just something I agree with.  Facts generally receive the former.

Online Robotbeat

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Re: COTS Demo 1
« Reply #1179 on: 12/09/2010 08:14 pm »
One crucial thing that has not been mentioned in this discussion is whether Dragon has enough consumables on board to do the fly-around check outs that ATV and HTV did on their first flights.  It could be impossible to combine the remaining Demo missions due to that limitation.
If you mean propellant, then Dragon should have plenty. I've heard at least 700m/s.

As far as power and cooling... Dragon has a radiator and solar arrays on the trunk for the next flight, so those shouldn't be a problem (was this one powered by mice+cheese?).

What other consumables?
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

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