List of all ORUs that cannot be replaced by Progress/ATV/HTV/Dragon/Cygnus

[Robotbeat]

What ORUs cannot be replaced by Progress, ATV, HTV, Dragon, Cygnus but can be replaced by Shuttle?

List them here, including mass and size (if known) EDIT: and expected on-orbit lifetime. Are they all unpressurized?

Thanks for any input.

EDIT: (tentative) List so far:

The following may not actually be ORUs (and many of them may not have spares), but here's some that are suggested (please correct me if necessary) :
*Thermal radiator rotary joint
*Ammonia Tank Assembly
*Radiator
*Solar Array blanket box (SABB)
*Solar alpha rotary joint (SARJ)
*High-Pressure Gas Tank (HPGT)
*Nitrogen Tank
*S-band Antenna Subassembly (SASA) 272kg (?)

Things which are ORUs and will fit on either HTV or Dragon (also perhaps Cygnus):
*Control Moment Gyro (CMG) (540kg? 275kg.) More info: http://www.space-shuttle.com/sts92payload.htm Minimum of 2 are needed to maintain attitude control (desaturated by thrusters on the Russian segment... which can be used without the CMGs for emergencies?) Also, 1.32m by 1.2m by 1.16m without interface hardware, so should fit in both HTV and Dragon, if you really want it to. (from here: http://ssedso.gsfc.nasa.gov/initiatives/lunar/LESWG/pubs_presentations/5thGM/CEV_LESWG_Mar07.pdf )

[Namechange User]

Well, we all know the real reason for this thread.....

These are the basic facts....again.  Shuttle was always meant to service ISS.  That service included crew rotation, spare parts, science racks, other basic logistics supplies and to provide the downmass capability.  ATV, HTV and Progress were meant to suppliment this capability. 

Today, we are removing Shuttle.  Can something(s) eventually be created to replace those capabilities?  Yes.

Are those replacement-capabilities known?  No.

Do we have an idea of cost for those capabilites?  No

Do we know when they will be online and operational?  No.  There are schedules out there but recent history has demonstrated those also move to the right considerably from what was initially advertised.

Now lets move on to our international partners.  Crew transport will be reliant on the Russians for an unknown price for an unknown period of time.  Crew rotations go down and the United States is forced not only to pay an unspecified price for our astronauts to our station but also that same price (whatever it may be) for European, Japanese and Canadians.  As for "commercial" crew transport, the questions surrounding that are even more complex than the cargo questions and have completely unknown costs, schedules and capabilites at this time. 

ATV and HTV schedules are pretty well set.  If more are needed, will those government's pay for them?  No, the US will.  Do we know how much that will be and how long it will take to ramp up that production capability?  No, but the quicker it is the more costly it will be. 

So, how does this position make any strategic sense?  The answer is it does not and why should our tax dollars go to someone else for a capability we have now today?  Why is this administration so against the out-sourcing of American jobs to other nations except in this instance when this industry is one of the last we have and something we are known for the world over? 

Those of us who work this everyday, contrary to those who may or may not think they know better based on their outside view, question this policy.  We have suggested this time and time again, that a transition is needed.  Shuttle should continue until something can replace it otherwise we jeopardize the ISS and everything else. 

End it if you will but so goes away the experience and knowledge gained after so many years. 

[Lee Jay]

I thought the CMGs were in this category.

[Danderman]

Just for kicks, I will throw in some actual data into the thread:

Thermal radiator rotary joint
Ammonia Tank Assembly
Radiator

I don't think these will fit in HTV or Dragon/Cygnus. There may be others, as well. The question is whether NASA actually plans to fly these anymore.

[Robotbeat]

A CMG is about half a ton, I believe. Is this mass really beyond HTV/Dragon/Cygnus? I think it's likely that it is some other constraint (volume? accessibility?) other than mass.

Also, is the unpressurized Cygnus still in the cards, or is that just pure powerpoint right now?

[arkaska]

All pressurized ORUs should be able to fly on at least HTV/COTS vehicles. They can carry ISPRs and no ORU is bigger than that, right?

There are countless of spare parts that can only be carried by shuttle.

Radiators
Solar Arrays
SARJ
HPGT
Nitrogen Tank
SASA (?)

This are just a few. If you want more take a look at the ORUs on ELC-1 and ELC-2 carried up on STS-129 most of these are to big for anything but the shuttle.

[robertross]

Add to the list the blanket box for solar arrays. Long and narrow. Very difficult to fit that into an existing vehicle. Though a spare may not exist, there is certainly cause to consider building and manifesting one so it may be pre-positioned at the latest opportunity (due to known sticking issues that caused the damage to one solar array on orbit).

And a note on alternate vehicles, specifically HTV. While they might be able to support certain ORUs that are not considered 'regular' replacements, they take the place of their intended purpose: science payloads. So even if we factor a CMG into the unpressurized space, considering the number & frequency of laucnhes, you are best to pre-position such an ORU, or dedicate a launch to such requirements.

[robertross]

All pressurized ORUs should be able to fly on at least HTV/COTS vehicles. They can carry ISPRs and no ORU is bigger than that, right?

There are countless of spare parts that can only be carried by shuttle.

Radiators
Solar Arrays
SARJ
HPGT
Nitrogen Tank
SASA (?)

This are just a few. If you want more take a look at the ORUs on ELC-1 and ELC-2 carried up on STS-129 most of these are to big for anything but the shuttle.

There was a comment that the radiator 'may' be able to fit into the unpressurized bay of the HTV, but as per my note above, that may not be the correct approach.

[arkaska]

There was a comment that the radiator 'may' be able to fit into the unpressurized bay of the HTV, but as per my note above, that may not be the correct approach.

And I remember there being talk about how to change batteries after the shuttle retires during STS-127. I don't remember if HTV could carry 3 or 6 but as Robert is saying they take up the space from the original cargo. And with an extension of ISS to at least 2020 batteries need to be replaced.

[Robotbeat]

HTV seems like not a very regular vehicle (how many flights total are planned? 2?). The only other vehicle in the list (Progress, ATV, HTV, Dragon, Cygnus) that can carry unpressurized cargo is Dragon, right? Unpressurized Cygnus is out, correct?

[William Barton]

I think this is the paper that discusses using an EELV-launched PBF (payload-bay fairing) in conjunction with ATV-as-tug to completely replace the Shuttle's upmass functionality. No idea how long with would take for something like this to be designed and brought into service.

http://www.ulalaunch.com/docs/publications/AIAASpace2008PaperMarkAFoster.pdf

[kch]

HTV seems like not a very regular vehicle (how many flights total are planned? 2?).

TWO?  ROTFLMFAO ... <ahem> ... sorry ... "no."  To elaborate, "at least seven, according to the Japanese Launch Schedule thread":

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=1181.165

(one last year, none this year, two next year, one per year after that through 2015, as of November 29th update) 

[Robotbeat]

HTV seems like not a very regular vehicle (how many flights total are planned? 2?).

TWO?  ROTFLMFAO ... <ahem> ... sorry ... "no."  To elaborate, "at least seven, according to the Japanese Launch Schedule thread":

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=1181.165

(one last year, none this year, two next year, one per year after that through 2015, as of November 29th update) 

Good to hear! One a year is a pretty good tempo. Are they all pretty much already fully manifested with what cargo they will bring up? I.e., is there room not yet detailed?

[brahmanknight]

I think this is the paper that discusses using an EELV-launched PBF (payload-bay fairing) in conjunction with ATV-as-tug to completely replace the Shuttle's upmass functionality. No idea how long with would take for something like this to be designed and brought into service.

http://www.ulalaunch.com/docs/publications/AIAASpace2008PaperMarkAFoster.pdf

I had never seen/heard of this proposal.  Thanks for the link.

[psloss]

Are they all pretty much already fully manifested with what cargo they will bring up? I.e., is there room not yet detailed?

The details might still be "TBD," but I believe the general pressurized/unpressurized upmass requirements on the USOS are already laid out -- at least they were publicly presented at one of the AC meetings last year through 2015.  (And I also believe that CRS replaces Progress in the near term.)

This was covered again in one of the many back-and-forth political threads in the recent weeks...I'll see if I can find a post or two with links...

[Robotbeat]

BTW, unpressurized cargo on the HTV is limited to the about 2mx2mx3.7m size of the External Pallet.

And Dragon external cargo is limited to a 3.6m diameter cylinder (one side only 3.2m) that is 3.1m long (4.3m on the edges). Those are the limitations of the inside of the trunk, at least. I'm sure there are other limitations.

Yes, thank you William for that link! According to that 2008 presentation, there is an annual upmass shortfall of 5 ton pressurized cargo and 4 tons unpressurized cargo after Shuttle.

[psloss]

Yes, thank you William for that link! According to that 2008 presentation, there is an annual upmass shortfall of 5 ton pressurized cargo and 4 tons unpressurized cargo after Shuttle.

The ISS CRS presentation here has more recent estimates, though they're in the same neighborhood:
http://www.nasa.gov/offices/hsf/meetings/06_17_meeting.html

[Jim]

Radiators
Solar Arrays
SARJ
HPGT
Nitrogen Tank
SASA (?)

Before making a list of what can't be launched, first make a list of the existing spares.    If the spare doesn't exist, then it is not a problem for now (a solution could be found while building the spare or the spare design could be modified).

[Robotbeat]

Good point about the spares. There must be a list of spares somewhere. A lot of the things listed aren't technically ORUs, right?

Also, the CMGs are only about 275kg, and 1.32m by 1.2m by 1.6 m. Should fit in HTV or Dragon (though extracting it from Dragon may be difficult). Info: http://ssedso.gsfc.nasa.gov/initiatives/lunar/LESWG/pubs_presentations/5thGM/CEV_LESWG_Mar07.pdf

EDIT: I will remove CMGs from the list, does anyone object?

[Robotbeat]

BTW, this link (http://ssedso.gsfc.nasa.gov/initiatives/lunar/LESWG/pubs_presentations/5thGM/CEV_LESWG_Mar07.pdf ) also plots a bunch of ORUs in a 2d plot of mass versus volume. The biggest one was 4 m^3 and the most massive was less than 500kg, so unless they are really long and skinny, all ORUs plotted should fit in both Dragon and HTV.

A CMG is bigger than more than 90% of ORUs plotted.