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Titan family Q&A
by
Ben the Space Brit
on 18 Mar, 2010 20:45
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I looked and, much to my surprise, found no Titan thread on this forum. Maybe it is because it is a retired system and therefore, could be considered purely historical. If the Mods agree, please feel free to move this to the appropriate forum.
Now that is aside, I have a few questions about the Titan launcher family.
1) I know that the Titan-I had a kerolox core, whilst the Titan-II and -III had hypergolic core engines. Was this also the case with the Titan-IV?
2) Martin-Marietta (Later Lockheed-Martin) developed the Atlas-V instead of a new Titan. Was there ever any serious plans for a 'Titan-V' before that decision was made?
3) Just out of interest, if ULA were to decide to give the Atlas-V Phase 2 evolution the 'Titan' name, would it be the Titan-V or Titan-VI? (This isn't as nonsensical as it sounds; the Atlas-V does have some Titan heritage in it and IMHO, purely on aesthetic terms, the Phase 2 looks more Titan than Atlas.)
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#1
by
mmeijeri
on 18 Mar, 2010 20:50
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Titan IV was hypergolic too. As I understand it Titan II was the last Titan to be used as an ICBM. Since the switch to hypergolics was made for storability and would not be critical for launch applications were there ever plans to switch back to kerolox in order to reduce costs?
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#2
by
Jim
on 19 Mar, 2010 00:40
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Titan IV was hypergolic too. As I understand it Titan II was the last Titan to be used as an ICBM. Since the switch to hypergolics was made for storability and would not be critical for launch applications were there ever plans to switch back to kerolox in order to reduce costs?
No, the T-II, III & IV engines were larger than the T-I
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#3
by
mmeijeri
on 19 Mar, 2010 00:43
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Would the cost of developing a new, larger kerolox engine have been too high compared to the savings due to eliminating hypergolics?
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#4
by
Jim
on 19 Mar, 2010 00:45
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.
1) I know that the Titan-I had a kerolox core, whilst the Titan-II and -III had hypergolic core engines. Was this also the case with the Titan-IV?
2) Martin-Marietta (Later Lockheed-Martin) developed the Atlas-V instead of a new Titan. Was there ever any serious plans for a 'Titan-V' before that decision was made?
3) Just out of interest, if ULA were to decide to give the Atlas-V Phase 2 evolution the 'Titan' name, would it be the Titan-V or Titan-VI? (This isn't as nonsensical as it sounds; the Atlas-V does have some Titan heritage in it and IMHO, purely on aesthetic terms, the Phase 2 looks more Titan than Atlas.)
1. The T-IV used the same engines as T-34D, except the engines were rated for longer burn times and the 2nd stage engine thrust was increased 4%
2. Martin had bought General Dynamics Systems (Atlas). The Atlas V was the next step. It took the stable tanks of the Titan IV and launch ops (MLP) and combine them with the Centaur, avionics and engines of Atlas III
3. No, Titan is retired and owned by LM.
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#5
by
mmeijeri
on 19 Mar, 2010 00:47
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The wikipedia page on Titan IV says:
in the 1990s both the Shuttle and the Titan IV were converted to aluminum-lithium tanks to rendezvous with the highly inclined orbit of the Russian Mir Space Station.
I added a "citation needed" tag to this a long time ago, but it's still there. Was Titan IV ever converted to Al-Li? I couldn't find any source that stated this.
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#6
by
Jim
on 19 Mar, 2010 00:48
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Would the cost of developing a new, larger kerolox engine have been too high compared to the savings due to eliminating hypergolics?
The Titan facilities would have also been required to be changed.
Titan-34D7 (Titan IV) was an "easy" solution to back up the shuttle and was only to be 10 vehicles. And then Challenger happened.
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#7
by
Damon Hill
on 19 Mar, 2010 01:15
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The wikipedia page on Titan IV says:
in the 1990s both the Shuttle and the Titan IV were converted to aluminum-lithium tanks to rendezvous with the highly inclined orbit of the Russian Mir Space Station.
I added a "citation needed" tag to this a long time ago, but it's still there. Was Titan IV ever converted to Al-Li? I couldn't find any source that stated this.
Stainless steel always; I just can't imagine highly corrosive hypergolics with aluminum alloys. Al-Li didn't show up until well into the Shuttle program.
The closest to a Titan V I can think of was a proposed 4-engine core. Never got past a mockup.
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#8
by
Downix
on 07 Oct, 2011 14:49
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3. No, Titan is retired and owned by LM.
Are you sure about that? I mean, I know it's retired, but I thought ULA inherited all of LM's launch assets, so would that not include Titan, in case they wishes to use the moniker for something?
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#9
by
Jim
on 07 Oct, 2011 15:09
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3. No, Titan is retired and owned by LM.
Are you sure about that? I mean, I know it's retired, but I thought ULA inherited all of LM's launch assets, so would that not include Titan, in case they wishes to use the moniker for something?
ULA only inherited Atlas. Example: Athena is LM's and not ULA's
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#10
by
Downix
on 07 Oct, 2011 16:28
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3. No, Titan is retired and owned by LM.
Are you sure about that? I mean, I know it's retired, but I thought ULA inherited all of LM's launch assets, so would that not include Titan, in case they wishes to use the moniker for something?
ULA only inherited Atlas. Example: Athena is LM's and not ULA's
Then does that mean ULA has to pay LM royalties for the Titan bits used on Atlas V?
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#11
by
Jim
on 07 Oct, 2011 17:43
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3. No, Titan is retired and owned by LM.
Are you sure about that? I mean, I know it's retired, but I thought ULA inherited all of LM's launch assets, so would that not include Titan, in case they wishes to use the moniker for something?
ULA only inherited Atlas. Example: Athena is LM's and not ULA's
Then does that mean ULA has to pay LM royalties for the Titan bits used on Atlas V?
There are no Titan bits on Atlas V vehicle, only Titan GSE was used. Anyways, what was transferred to ULA was the Atlas V program in its entirety and subsystems regardless of origin.
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#12
by
Prober
on 02 Jan, 2012 18:13
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What Titan buildings survived @ CCAFS after the phase out?
SMARF
SMAB
VIB (gone)
AGE Bldg
SAB
PLFPF
PPF
LSB
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#13
by
mmeijeri
on 02 Jan, 2012 18:53
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There are no Titan bits on Atlas V vehicle, only Titan GSE was used. Anyways, what was transferred to ULA was the Atlas V program in its entirety and subsystems regardless of origin.
What about Centaur?
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#14
by
edkyle99
on 02 Jan, 2012 19:06
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There are no Titan bits on Atlas V vehicle, only Titan GSE was used. Anyways, what was transferred to ULA was the Atlas V program in its entirety and subsystems regardless of origin.
What about Centaur?
The Atlas V Centaur lineage traces back to Atlas Centaur, Atlas II, III, etc.. The fat-tank Centaur used on Titan IV sprang from the Shuttle Centaur program and had RL10A-3-3A engines, for example, while the post-Challenger Atlas Centuars worked through a series of RL10A-4 engines that resulted in the current Atlas V RL10A-4-2 type. There were many similarities, of course, but Centaur is more strongly associated with Atlas in my mind.
- Ed Kyle
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#15
by
Jim
on 02 Jan, 2012 22:31
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What Titan buildings survived @ CCAFS after the phase out?
SMARF
SMAB
VIB (gone)
AGE Bldg
SAB
PLFPF
PPF
LSB
PPF and SAB are not Titan facilities.
Don't know what LSB refers to (Launch Service Building)?
The MIS is now the ASOC
the ITL warehouse still exists as well as the SRS, SAS and RIS.
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#16
by
Prober
on 03 Jan, 2012 14:57
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What Titan buildings survived @ CCAFS after the phase out?
SMARF
SMAB
VIB (gone)
AGE Bldg
SAB
PLFPF
PPF
LSB
PPF and SAB are not Titan facilities.
Don't know what LSB refers to (Launch Service Building)?
The MIS is now the ASOC
the ITL warehouse still exists as well as the SRS, SAS and RIS.
Titan IV user guide
LSB = Launch Support bldg (western range)
LSB = Launch and Service Bldg. (western range)
Edit: new info
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#17
by
Jim
on 03 Jan, 2012 15:19
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Titan IV user guide
LSB = Launch Support bldg
LSB = Launch and Service Bldg
those are at VAFB
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#18
by
Stan Black
on 11 Apr, 2013 18:26
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I have had a long running conversation with Старый over on the N.K. forum to do with the factory numbers for R-7 derived rockets. This has been quite successful.
He is interested in Titan serial numbers. I did ask why Titan if there were still unknown Kosmos-3M and Proton factory numbers to be clarified.
Старый пишет:
Stan пишет:
But we still have so much to resolve: Kosmos-3M, full factory numbers for Proton, Zenit-2…
Я видел. Работа хорошая. И номера китайских ракет видел.
Но Титаны то остались обиженые. 
So… can anyone help?
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#19
by
Galactic Penguin SST
on 11 Apr, 2013 18:36
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I have had a long running conversation with Старый over on the N.K. forum to do with the factory numbers for R-7 derived rockets. This has been quite successful.
He is interested in Titan serial numbers. I did ask why Titan if there were still unknown Kosmos-3M and Proton factory numbers to be clarified.
Старый пишет:
Stan пишет:
But we still have so much to resolve: Kosmos-3M, full factory numbers for Proton, Zenit-2…
Я видел. Работа хорошая. И номера китайских ракет видел.
Но Титаны то остались обиженые.
So… can anyone help?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Titan_launches and its references?
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#20
by
Jim Davis
on 11 Apr, 2013 18:40
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So… can anyone help?
Titan II: A History of a Cold War Missile Program
By David K. Stumpf
has an appendix with the Titan II ICBM serial numbers.
