SpaceX: Falcon 9 Hotfire Attempt 2 Updates

[ugordan]

It's down to the microphone used. That close in most of them are overpowered by the decibels, they'd probably need a more specialized setup to capture all the frequencies - attenuators or something. Both videos appear to have the same sound overdubbed on them.

From a distance, it's rumble like with any other rocket.

[WHAP]

That dark material (maybe just ice in the shadow of the vehicle) doesn't look like an Atlas launch.  That photo in stockman's post gives the impression of the dark material being pushed out laterally, not falling and drifting in the wind, as it does on an Atlas launch.

OK, I'm now going to have to ask for visual cues about this "dark material" you're talking about.

There is a blob of ice being shaken off the tank, and it's actually visible in one of the images as a slight darkening in the LOX tank texture and there are ice+vapor particles being carried by the wind next to the black rectangular box at the top of RP-1 tank. What other dark material pushed out?

Let's see, how do I explain this without repeating everything I said in my previous post?  I can't.  You even included my quote about what the dark material could be, so I think we're talking about the same material.  I also said "The second photo on the hobbyspace link shows a lot of material pretty far away from the vehicle - not consistent with wind effects when looking at the vapor on the ground or at the plume."  You and I disagree about the wind effects.  The video isn't high enough resolution to see these particles, but it certainly doesn't suggest very high winds.

As far as the darkening of the LOX tank texture, it appears to me that it extends down to (and including) the RP-1 tank.  If it's not ice, what is it?  If that's not the darkening to which you refer, please let me know where it is.

There is no ice on the RP-1 tank.

And just so Sen doesn't get worked up with me, I also stated "That doesn't mean anything is wrong, it just appears different."  No conspiracy, although I'd like to know what Sen believes to be the "truth" in this case, and how he knows it's true.

[ugordan]

Let's see, how do I explain this without repeating everything I said in my previous post?  I can't.  You even included my quote about what the dark material could be, so I think we're talking about the same material.

No, we are not talking about the same dark material on the tank apperently. It's only now clear to me you're talking about a slight darkening of the RP-1 tank texture.

I also said "The second photo on the hobbyspace link shows a lot of material pretty far away from the vehicle - not consistent with wind effects when looking at the vapor on the ground or at the plume."  You and I disagree about the wind effects. 

We obviously disagree about wind effects. To me it's perfectly obvious that's ice in the vehicle's shadow being blown by the wind. Ice that fell off the bottom section of the LOX tank. I'm attaching an enhanced image below showing clearly which chunk of ice fell off the tank producing that debris spray. It's also clear the "debris" chunks that entered sunlight are white. This is my last on the subject as frankly it feels like beating a dead horse already.

[mmeijeri]

You can see orange flames for longer than 3.5s, is this because the engines run at full thrust for 3.5s and after that whatever is left in the fuel line comes out as the turbopump spins down and the line is purged?

Similarly, did the orange flames at the earlier attempt come from purging the fuel line?

[ugordan]

You can see orange flames for longer than 3.5s, is this because the engines run at full thrust for 3.5s and after that whatever is left in the fuel line comes out as the turbopump spins down and the line is purged?

Yes. That thrust tailoff is what cost them Falcon 1 #3.

[corrodedNut]

whatever the black item is in the picture (see red arrows) you can really see it get deflected upwards at the point of ignition...

Nice catch. That's where the steam from below billowed up next to the building. Could that be the other SRMU hole of the Titan that was closed? The position looks about right. Might not have been an adequate job at closing it.

That's gotta be the steel deck they covered the other hole with. Probably very heavy, but apparently not bolted down, either. I think it might be left over from its TitanIV days.

The puff of steam is hilarious, t minus four...three...two...one...Tea's Ready!

[HammerD]

Does the rocket look a bit crooked or is that just me?

I assume some kind of camera effect or my bad eyes

[kevin-rf]

Finally - for ANY spaceX personnel that may read this forum... THANK YOU for the quick turnaround on pictures and video.

I can't wait for the launch and hopefully, the live webcast from the rocketcam   

concur

Robert

Ditto...

[Jim]

That's gotta be the steel deck they covered the other hole with. Probably very heavy, but apparently not bolted down, either. I think it might be left over from its TitanIV days.

Those plates are not meant to be there during the firing.

[Rhyshaelkan]

I hope I do not jinx it, but even if the F9 goes up in a beautiful shower of debris. I hope they broadcast live.

And totally do not get me wrong. I want SpaceX to succeed, and then some. They are a great step in bringing the future.

[JohnFornaro]

About that ice discussion up there.  If there is ice forming on the lox tank,  I'd expect some of it to break off because of vibration.  I also wonder if there was perhaps some rapid sublimation going on.  Maybe some O2 leaked?  As it evaporated, it would cause a puff of gas blowing out the solid ice as shown in that "enhanced" photo?

Because if you look at the exhaust plume, whatever the wind conditions are, they are not affecting the plume all that much.

[mr. mark]

I seriously doubt there will be any explosions except the combustion coming from the rocket motors . Not one Spacex vehicle has ever exploded. I think things to look for would be a clean seperation and guidance control. If they get through first stage seperation then it should be a go. Also, The new 2nd stage Merlin vaccum motor has yet to be tried in actual space on a second stage. I have a hunch things will go very well....

[stockman]

I seriously doubt there will be any explosions except the combustion coming from the rocket motors . Not one Spacex vehicle has ever exploded. I think things to look for would be a clean seperation and guidance control. If they get through first stage seperation then it should be a go. Also, The new 2nd stage Merlin vaccum motor has yet to be tried in actual space on a second stage. I'm have a hunch things will go very well....

I agree as well.. .I don't worry (again in my non engineering way of looking at it) about liftoff... once in the air I think it will go well.. The only time I will be watching and holding my breath will be during staging... thats the only area that has given them multiple problems - but on a good note since they have had multiple issues with staging on F1 already they probably have focused a lot of attention on that area to make sure it works... fingers crossed....

[William Barton]

I seriously doubt there will be any explosions except the combustion coming from the rocket motors . Not one Spacex vehicle has ever exploded. I think things to look for would be a clean seperation and guidance control. If they get through first stage seperation then it should be a go. Also, The new 2nd stage Merlin vaccum motor has yet to be tried in actual space on a second stage. I'm have a hunch things will go very well....

I agree as well.. .I don't worry (again in my non engineering way of looking at it) about liftoff... once in the air I think it will go well.. The only time I will be watching and holding my breath will be during staging... thats the only area that has given them multiple problems - but on a good note since they have had multiple issues with staging on F1 already they probably have focused a lot of attention on that area to make sure it works... fingers crossed....

We'll know in the first few seconds if TVC roll control (another untested bit) is working right. I'll be very surprised if staging goes wrong. Then vac Merlin ignition and control authority for us to bite our nails over for a few minutes. I really hope this goes right on the first try. Same hope for Taurus II and Cygnus.

[ugordan]

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_space_thewritestuff/2010/03/that-spacex-falcon-9-hot-fire-the-movie.html

Word has it that the success was not only enjoyed at SpaceX headquarters in Hawthorne, California, but also at the Department of Defence and the offices of United Launch Alliance, Boeing Co. and all other firms harbouring ambitions to grab a slice of the White House’s proposed $6 billion in funds to develop new commercial rocket capabilities. Commercial supporters need SpaceX to succeed in order to keep the commercial dream on track. Still many technical and political hurdles remain before that’s going to a locked-down reality.

Oh, the pressure... Don't you just love how politics work. Everyone's just waiting for ammunition to attack the opposing camp and camps are relieved every time the opposing camp doesn't get new ammo.

Seriously, after all their delays did SpaceX pick the worst possible time for a maiden launch or what?

[jimvela]

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_space_thewritestuff/2010/03/that-spacex-falcon-9-hot-fire-the-movie.html

Word has it that the success was not only enjoyed at SpaceX headquarters in Hawthorne, California, but also at the Department of Defence and the offices of United Launch Alliance, Boeing Co. and all other firms harbouring ambitions to grab a slice of the White House’s proposed $6 billion in funds to develop new commercial rocket capabilities. Commercial supporters need SpaceX to succeed in order to keep the commercial dream on track. Still many technical and political hurdles remain before that’s going to a locked-down reality.

Oh, the pressure... Don't you just love how politics work. Everyone's just waiting for ammunition to attack the opposing camp and camps are relieved every time the opposing camp doesn't get new ammo.

Seriously, after all their delays did SpaceX pick the worst possible time for a maiden launch or what?

It's only the worst possible time if you assume that they're going to fail.

Since they're not only trying to succeed, but also trying to secure additional launch vehicle and supply mission dollars, they actually couldn't have chosen a better time to launch.

The individual systems all seem to be working.  Where SpaceX suffers from immaturity is overall systems engineering.  Not surprising, considering that their chief systems engineer is just learning how to do the job.

With some more maturity under their (His) belt, I hope for good things from SpaceX.

[Borderline]

I seriously doubt there will be any explosions except the combustion coming from the rocket motors . Not one Spacex vehicle has ever exploded. I think things to look for would be a clean seperation and guidance control. If they get through first stage seperation then it should be a go. Also, The new 2nd stage Merlin vaccum motor has yet to be tried in actual space on a second stage. I have a hunch things will go very well....

yeah...the thing that would "cause a pause" would be guidance control.  I still have visions of the Delta III doing its "act"...

Robert

[ugordan]

It's only the worst possible time if you assume that they're going to fail.

That's the problem. Historically, the numbers for maiden launches are not on their side. More experienced organizations were known to fumble their inaugural launches in the past. As you say, the subsystems all seem to check out now, but how it all fits into the global picture and how the subtle interplay between subsystems works out is the big question.

Maybe I'm a pessimist, but it feels like a success would not bring as many positives to the table (politically) as a failure would negatives. We already have working commercial LVs and having another one would not change the status quo, but a failure might taint EELVs as well in the politicians' ignorant/deliberately disingenous minds.

[Lars_J]

ugordan - Fortune favors the bold.

[mmeijeri]

Maybe they should call it a suborbital test flight with a slight possibility of launching a Dragon test article into orbit.