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Proton IV in 2012
by
Sur2900
on 05 Mar, 2010 19:40
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#1
by
Danderman
on 05 Mar, 2010 22:46
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OK, so what is a "Phase IV" Proton? Does it use warp drive?
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#2
by
Cog_in_the_machine
on 06 Mar, 2010 06:42
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"The fundamentals of the program are increased reliability, producibility and increased performance. Phase IV meets all of those requirements and relies on an extension of existing technologies in avionics, and high strength materials and investment in high accuracy tooling ."
Nothing in it about propulsion. Sounds like manufacturing changes only.
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#3
by
DiggyCoxwell
on 06 Mar, 2010 19:13
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Does the Russian space agency have enough money
available to develop both the Angara and the Proton IV?
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#4
by
sammie
on 06 Mar, 2010 21:23
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I doubt that RSA is putting a single penny in Proton IV. Seems like the changes are paid for and organized by Krunichev. The RSA hasn't got any payloads that heavy other then maybe MRM. This upgrade is purely driven by the need of commercial costumers. With Zenit-3SL capable of similar heavy payloads out of the game, Proton can nicely fill that gap.
But as indicated before this is more of a mid life upgrade and production will just continue in line. You can't demand a phase 3 Proton M once production has successfully switched to the new standard.
Now, anyone want to make a guess a Proton M with a RD-0146U upper stage would do?
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#5
by
Stan Black
on 07 Mar, 2010 17:50
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#6
by
fregate
on 09 Mar, 2010 23:01
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Ok. Let's do some calculations:
1. LV Proton M launches a satellite into parking orbit with an altitude of
182.5 km and an inclination of
51.6 degrees.
An ideal delta V required to transfer the satellite to a GEO orbit using Hohmann transfer with a combined plane change at apogee
Ideal Delta V for GEO mission =
4,889 m/sec.
Ideal Delta V for GTO mission =
3,389 m/sec.
2. Assuming that mass of cryogenic space tug is equal to the mass of Briz-M space tug (
22,170 kg) and the same Propellant factor as 12KRB space tug ( Propellant factor is a ratio of usable propellant mass to the fully fueled tug mass), which is
12,600/15,100=0.83443. Engine mass (by CADB)
RD-0146
242 kg
RD-0146D ~
300 kg
Proton-M payload capability (with gravity losses) for GTO/GEO missions with cryogenic space tug: Image linkAs you could see with a minor structural improvements of cryogenic space tug, Proton-M would be capable to deliver
13.2 metric tonnes for GTO and
6 metric tonnes for GEO missions.
Please welcome a
Russian Centaur 
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#7
by
zaitcev
on 24 Mar, 2010 02:55
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2. Assuming that mass of cryogenic space tug is equal to the mass of Briz-M space tug (22,170 kg) and the same Propellant factor as 12KRB space tug ( Propellant factor is a ratio of usable propellant mass to the fully fueled tug mass), which is 12,600/15,100=0.8344
. . .
Please welcome a Russian Centaur
This is exactly what confuses me. It's not like they (Khrunichev) cannot do it. They already did! They already have the whole stage - not just the engine, but structures and avionics -
already flown on GSLV. How hard can it be to put it on top of Proton? Yet they do not seem to be working on it. What is the hold-up? Pad upgrades at Baikonur? Political interference from Angara? What?
-- Pete
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#8
by
sammie
on 24 Mar, 2010 03:13
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Well, to say that the whole stage is ready for entry into service is a bit of an over statement. There is I think quite a bit of development left to be done, and it all has to be tested, all of which will cost quite a bit of money. The RSA has no need to put 13 tonnes in GTO, so they sure won't pay for it. ILS to has no real need for such a capability as well. I doubt they can start launching two big satellites due to space constraints in the fairing, even if there is a demand for it (which I doubt). ILS seems content with the current situation in the launch market and is more focused on quality improvement and not investing too much money.
So there is no real market, nor is there anybody that willing to invest that kind of money. So instead they try to milk as much cash out of an already operating system.
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#9
by
PDJennings
on 24 Mar, 2010 13:16
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This is exactly what confuses me. It's not like they (Khrunichev) cannot do it. They already did! They already have the whole stage - not just the engine, but structures and avionics - already flown on GSLV. How hard can it be to put it on top of Proton? Yet they do not seem to be working on it. What is the hold-up? Pad upgrades at Baikonur? Political interference from Angara? What?
-- Pete
Don't forget the significant outlays required for all-new payload fairing design, space head integration fixturing, transporter, and service tower modifications (on up to three pads). A cryogenic stage a la KVRB would be a great deal longer than the compact Breeze-M, and the fairing required for that plus dual payloads and a Russki Sylda would be much longer than the current 15255 fairing. And that is for a 4-m class fairing diameter. If you want it to be a 5-m fairing to match the competition, then all the above expenses will be much higher. By the way, don't forget to dock your performance estimate by a ton or so for the heavier fairing and the payload carrier. The Ariane 5 ES version ended up heavier than was originally advertised, and the Khrunichev fairings are not as lightweight.
I am sure the current ILS business is profitable, but it does not have the margins to justify that kind of capital expenditure. Incremental mods such as the Phase IV are justified. You *might* see a second processing area for satellites, but that's pretty expensive all by itself.
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#10
by
edkyle99
on 24 Mar, 2010 13:38
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Please welcome a Russian Centaur
This is exactly what confuses me. It's not like they (Khrunichev) cannot do it. They already did! They already have the whole stage - not just the engine, but structures and avionics - already flown on GSLV. How hard can it be to put it on top of Proton? Yet they do not seem to be working on it. What is the hold-up? Pad upgrades at Baikonur? Political interference from Angara? What?
-- Pete
What is holding them up is that Proton is such a capable launch vehicle "as-is". Why shift to a more complex, costly cryogenic stage when an all-storable hypergolic rocket can lift 6.3 tonnes to GTO, from a high-inclination launch site no less!
Also recall that the cryogenic oxidizer DM stages that used to fly on Proton had a stubborn failure rate that the non-cryogenic hypergolic Briz M stage has a chance to better (though it has had its troubles). The last 15 Proton M/Briz M launches have gone off without a hitch. Could Khrunichev fly 15 LH2 stages in a row without failure?
- Ed Kyle
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#11
by
fregate
on 29 Mar, 2010 05:31
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2. Assuming that mass of cryogenic space tug is equal to the mass of Briz-M space tug (22,170 kg) and the same Propellant factor as 12KRB space tug ( Propellant factor is a ratio of usable propellant mass to the fully fueled tug mass), which is 12,600/15,100=0.8344
. . .
Please welcome a Russian Centaur
This is exactly what confuses me. It's not like they (Khrunichev) cannot do it. They already did! They already have the whole stage - not just the engine, but structures and avionics - already flown on GSLV. How hard can it be to put it on top of Proton? Yet they do not seem to be working on it. What is the hold-up? Pad upgrades at Baikonur? Political interference from Angara? What?
-- Pete
Apart of integration issues (how to fit 12KRB into Proton-M LV), 12KRB BTW has 12,600 kg of usable propellant only
and quite old-fashioned cryogenic engine.
That translates to the following capacity:
GTO payload
8,435 kg
GSO paylod
3,771 kg
Not worth it!
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#12
by
Stan Black
on 30 Mar, 2010 13:38
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#13
by
VR2
on 30 Mar, 2010 14:15
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The EchoStar XIV... the first commercial flight of the enhanced Phase III Proton.
... this year?
I think, that all the Protons 935xx series are of the enhanced Phase III.
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#14
by
Stan Black
on 30 Mar, 2010 14:57
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The EchoStar XIV... the first commercial flight of the enhanced Phase III Proton.
... this year?
I think, that all the Protons 935xx series are of the enhanced Phase III.
Possibly the Proton is... but what about the white launch fairing?
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#15
by
VR2
on 31 Mar, 2010 08:24
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The EchoStar XIV... the first commercial flight of the enhanced Phase III Proton.
... this year?
I think, that all the Protons 935xx series are of the enhanced Phase III.
Possibly the Proton is... but what about the white launch fairing?
White fairings is probably related to a federal flight.
(The first three rockets (93501 - 93503) were white.)
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#16
by
Stan Black
on 31 Mar, 2010 10:35
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The EchoStar XIV... the first commercial flight of the enhanced Phase III Proton.
... this year?
I think, that all the Protons 935xx series are of the enhanced Phase III.
Possibly the Proton is... but what about the white launch fairing?
White fairings is probably related to a federal flight.
(The first three rockets (93501 - 93503) were white.)
My point is that the entire package to launch a satellite includes a Proton rocket, Briz-M upper stage, payload adapter and fairing. Whilst there is a new sequence of Proton in use there appears to be something else that makes this and 93501 / 99501 phase III missions.
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#17
by
infocat13
on 31 Mar, 2010 13:28
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A proton with a cryogenic second stage would be great thing for a international beyond LEO exploration project.The Russians could get a ISS derived component to L2 maybe!
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#18
by
fregate
on 06 Apr, 2010 07:02
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A proton with a cryogenic second stage would be great thing for a international beyond LEO exploration project.The Russians could get a ISS derived component to L2 maybe!
Yes, it would be great, but not so great with 12KRB (Block DM is quite capable to perform such mission).
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#19
by
Stan Black
on 16 Aug, 2010 18:52
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In revision 4 of the Proton Mission Planner’s Guide it mentions
8.3 AVIONICS SYSTEM MASS UPGRADES
With the introduction of the Breeze M stage, it becomes possible to remove the booster avionics system from the third stage of Proton and use a modified upper stage avionics system for control of the entire launch system from liftoff to separation of the payload in the targeted orbit. Removal of the avionics system increases typical performance to geosynchronous transfer orbits by approximately 100 kg.
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#20
by
Stan Black
on 22 Aug, 2010 20:41
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I doubt that RSA is putting a single penny in Proton IV. Seems like the changes are paid for and organized by Krunichev. The RSA hasn't got any payloads that heavy other then maybe MRM. This upgrade is purely driven by the need of commercial costumers. With Zenit-3SL capable of similar heavy payloads out of the game, Proton can nicely fill that gap.
But as indicated before this is more of a mid life upgrade and production will just continue in line. You can't demand a phase 3 Proton M once production has successfully switched to the new standard.
Now, anyone want to make a guess a Proton M with a RD-0146U upper stage would do?
Customer’s have made demands before. Astra-1G and Astra-2A flew on out of warranty military stocked rockets because customer wanted RD-253 engines. INMARSAT-4F3 customised 935 series Proton-M with RD-275 engines.
And as to these future enhancements; like lobotomising the Proton or burning the 3rd stage fuel to depletion are probably not suitable for MLM.
Putting a hydrogen oxygen upperstage has long been mentioned as an option for Proton; with a 5 metre payload fairing. Such technology would then migrate to the Angara rocket. Initially the Angara under the guise of Baiterek was to fly from site 200 launch platform 40. However site 250 is now to be the launch site of Angara; already designed to support hydrogen oxygen and kerosene rockets from Energia. And it has been preserved in a working state unlike site 40 which was stripped bare.
http://www.khrunichev.ru/main.php?id=52
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#21
by
zaitcev
on 23 Aug, 2010 19:32
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However site 250 is now to be the launch site of Angara; already designed to support hydrogen oxygen and kerosene rockets from Energia. And it has been preserved in a working state unlike site 40 which was stripped bare.
I heard rumors that there was some disagreement about the situation at site 250. For the lack of money to repair it, Kazakh side signed off waivers. In particular the status of one of the lightning towers is a suspect since one of Energiya launches damaged it. Also, site 250 was used as fuel storage facility and allegedly Russians did not hand over that fuel plant into the assets of Baiterek. That, and lack of money, kinda makes the whole project a suspect, IMHO.
On the other hand, 200/40 is now free for deep changes in support of the long-fairing Proton, for instance (needs a different service tower) -- provided that money are available, again.
-- Pete
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#22
by
Stan Black
on 28 Aug, 2010 10:17
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However site 250 is now to be the launch site of Angara; already designed to support hydrogen oxygen and kerosene rockets from Energia. And it has been preserved in a working state unlike site 40 which was stripped bare.
I heard rumors that there was some disagreement about the situation at site 250. For the lack of money to repair it, Kazakh side signed off waivers. In particular the status of one of the lightning towers is a suspect since one of Energiya launches damaged it. Also, site 250 was used as fuel storage facility and allegedly Russians did not hand over that fuel plant into the assets of Baiterek. That, and lack of money, kinda makes the whole project a suspect, IMHO.
On the other hand, 200/40 is now free for deep changes in support of the long-fairing Proton, for instance (needs a different service tower) -- provided that money are available, again.
-- Pete
You raise an interesting point about the service tower needing to be changed for the 5-metre fairing. There has also been a change in the Proton Launch System Mission Planner’s Guide about 5-metre fairings.
Revision 4, March 1999
These fairing options can be fielded in 30-36 months of authority to proceed and will support Proton M and Proton M/Breeze M vehicle launches as early as mid-2001.
Revision 5, December 2001
These fairing options can be available 18 months from contract signing and will support Proton M and Proton M/Breeze M vehicle launches.
Revision 6, December 2004
Such options can typically be available 18 months from contract signing.
Revision 7, July 2009
Such PLF options can take up to 48 months from contract signing to becoming available.
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#23
by
Archibald
on 28 Aug, 2010 14:32
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A proton with a cryogenic second stage would be great thing for a international beyond LEO exploration project.The Russians could get a ISS derived component to L2 maybe!
According to Excalibur Almaz an all-hypergolic, five stage Proton (two Briz-M) can throw 7 tons to 4 km/s.
I just can't imagine the performance with RD54-powered second and third stages and RD-56 (KVRD ?) fourth stage...
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#24
by
Danderman
on 28 Aug, 2010 14:57
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A proton with a cryogenic second stage would be great thing for a international beyond LEO exploration project.The Russians could get a ISS derived component to L2 maybe!
According to Excalibur Almaz an all-hypergolic, five stage Proton (two Briz-M) can throw 7 tons to 4 km/s.
I just can't imagine the performance with RD54-powered second and third stages and RD-56 (KVRD ?) fourth stage...
The problem with effectively rebuilding Proton with cryogenic upper stages is that the first stage is kind of puny, most due to rail transport restrictions. Its overly heavy, as the tankage is divided into small pieces. I suspect that the Proton first stage was heavily influenced in its design by the Saturn I first stage, which likewise was composed of small tanks, albeit for different reasons than Proton. Due to these small tanks, the Proton first stage barely operates for 120 seconds, whereas more modern upper stages operate closer to 180 seconds.
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#25
by
Stan Black
on 28 Aug, 2010 15:05
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A proton with a cryogenic second stage would be great thing for a international beyond LEO exploration project.The Russians could get a ISS derived component to L2 maybe!
According to Excalibur Almaz an all-hypergolic, five stage Proton (two Briz-M) can throw 7 tons to 4 km/s.
I just can't imagine the performance with RD54-powered second and third stages and RD-56 (KVRD ?) fourth stage...
And what about the idea of strapping Topol solids around the 1st & 2nd stages?
http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/content/numbers/258/02.shtml
http://www.astro.cz/clanek/1530
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#26
by
Archibald
on 28 Aug, 2010 18:36
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Talk about heavy lift then ! 50 tons to LEO ?
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#27
by
Stan Black
on 12 Dec, 2010 18:08
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#28
by
Stan Black
on 17 Jul, 2011 10:07
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The EchoStar XIV... the first commercial flight of the enhanced Phase III Proton.
... this year?
I think, that all the Protons 935xx series are of the enhanced Phase III.
Possibly the Proton is... but what about the white launch fairing?
White fairings is probably related to a federal flight.
(The first three rockets (93501 - 93503) were white.)
My point is that the entire package to launch a satellite includes a Proton rocket, Briz-M upper stage, payload adapter and fairing. Whilst there is a new sequence of Proton in use there appears to be something else that makes this and 93501 / 99501 phase III missions.
935 are a mix of phase II and III.
Phase II fairing was unchanged [
DIRECTV 10 booklet from Khrunichev].
Only phase III have the white fairing (93501, 93514, 93515, 93516, 93517, 93518, 93519…). Phase II 93502 and 92503 fairings are standard grey.
http://www.kosmonavtika.com/lanceurs/proton/liste/liste-m.htmlhttp://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=17568.msg765506#msg765506
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#29
by
Phillip Clark
on 17 Jul, 2011 15:09
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Do we know with any certainty from authoritative Russian sources whether the plans to fly a LOX/LH2 upper stage on Proton are still on-going or simply dead and buried?
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#30
by
Danderman
on 13 Jun, 2012 15:57
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Do we know with any certainty from authoritative Russian sources whether the plans to fly a LOX/LH2 upper stage on Proton are still on-going or simply dead and buried?
Kazakhstan really wants Proton to be phased out in favor of Angara/Balterek, so its unlikely that real money would be spent on upgrading Proton much more.
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#31
by
sammie
on 13 Jun, 2012 20:12
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I doubt Kazakhstan really wants Proton to go. Pure negotiations. I rate Kazakhi environmental concerns about as genuine as Micheal Jackson's nose and about as hypocritical as North Koreans calls for peace.
They want cash, USD preferable, but Ruble's will do just fine. If you'd task them with covering half of all the expenses of Biatrek you'd be able to launch Proton till somewhere early 22nd century.
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#32
by
Danderman
on 13 Jun, 2012 20:15
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I doubt Kazakhstan really wants Proton to go. Pure negotiations. I rate Kazakhi environmental concerns about as genuine as Micheal Jackson's nose and about as hypocritical as North Koreans calls for peace.
They want cash, USD preferable, but Ruble's will do just fine. If you'd task them with covering half of all the expenses of Biatrek you'd be able to launch Proton till somewhere early 22nd century.
Let's put it this way: Kazakhstan is going to squeeze Russia on Proton until the costs get too high to tolerate.
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#33
by
Stan Black
on 01 Jan, 2014 16:08
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