NASA Selects Commercial Firms to Begin Development of Crew Transportation

[EE Scott]

Seems to me NASA is now bias against using STS-derived hardware.  They said they are not interested in re-stacking old technology, or something like that.  I would bet that HLV is going to incorporate some of the new propulsion technologies that are going to be developed with the new R&D $$$.  However, a concession in the budget process could be to back away from their current bias and throw that big bone as you say to ATK.  Hopefully not IMO.

edit:  corrected 'not' to 'now' in first sentence

[HMXHMX]

So the EDS for the Atlas is kinda like the old Apollo LAS system.
http://www.apollosaturn.com/asnr/escape.htm

I have a feeling they been working on this years before yesterday's announcement.

EDS is the software and instrumentation protocol, not the launch escape system.

[Nate_Trost]

I wonder which EELV will be baseline for integration with the Boeing capsule.

[yg1968]

The proposed Boeing spacecraft could be flexible enough to launch on several different rockets, according to industry officials.

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n1002/02ccdev/

From Boeing's press release:

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1054

Boeing's crew module concept will be based on previous company efforts. It will be compatible with multiple launch vehicles and configurable to carry a mixture of crew and cargo on short-duration missions to and from the International Space Station, orbital habitats by Bigelow Aerospace and other future destinations in low Earth orbit. The size of the system is expected to be larger than the Apollo-era space capsule.

[yg1968]

From that same article:

Musk said he was not surprised by SpaceX's absence in the Commercial Crew Development contract because the funding is slated to go toward basic technologies, many of which SpaceX has already developed. The most significant addition to outfit the Dragon for human passengers is a launch abort system that would whisk astronauts away from a failing rocket, according to Musk.

[robertross]

If it works, it's not a bad idea.  But no heavy lift, and no human exploration of space.

No heavy lift and no human exploration of beyond earth orbit right now.

If you can get to orbit for hundreds or thousands of dollars per pound instead of tens of thousands of dollars, then you'll see those things come about.  Also, as long as you have 3 or 4 providers consistently providing LEO access, that frees NASA and the development teams of those companies to turn their eyes to larger targets.   As long as NASA has to play mother-hen to LEO access AS well as development of BEO access, something has to give.

awww...beat me to it 

Exactly.
This is all good imo.
And since solids are more a nuissance for a 'HR' launch vehicle, I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see them on the chosen launch vehicle.

Now about that domestic kerolox engine development program.... 

[Jim]

Thanks for that pdf Jim! Reading through it two thoughts occurred to me. Is ULA planning only to use the Atlas V? The report talks 76 parameters to be monitored, 37 on the booster and 39 on the Centaur. There is no mention of monitoring solid rocket motor performance. Does this mean that for crewed launches they will not be used? In the announcement today it was state that Dream Chaser is to fly on an Atlas 402.

that is an old paper, pre ULA.  they are look at a generic box for vehicles.

[Jim]

* Atlas V and Delta IV will both be equipped with error detection

* The spacecraft will be Boeing/Bigelow capsule and Dream Chaser

* Both will launch on Atlas V, probably on Delta IV as well

* The escape systems on both will be a "pusher" rocket (think of the retro pack on Mercury) instead of a more convention "tower"

* Paragon will provide "turn-key" life support for either one (and possibly Dragon as well)

No.  Those are just the winners of the money and will be used for the individual studies.  It doesn't mean that blue orgins escape system or paragon systems will be used in Boeing's capsule or  dreamchaser.  That is up to the contractors themselves and not NASA and they have a way to go before making those decisions.

[Jim]

So the EDS for the Atlas is kinda like the old Apollo LAS system.
http://www.apollosaturn.com/asnr/escape.htm

I have a feeling they been working on this years before yesterday's announcement.

EDS is a health monitoring system, not escape system.  The launch vehicle does not build the escape system

[Lee Jay]

If you can get to orbit for hundreds or thousands of dollars per pound instead of tens of thousands of dollars, then you'll see those things come about.  Also, as long as you have 3 or 4 providers consistently providing LEO access, that frees NASA and the development teams of those companies to turn their eyes to larger targets.

I absolutely do not buy that going commercial/competitive will drop the cost of moving stuff to LEO:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2008/12/spacex-and-orbital-win-huge-crs-contract-from-nasa/

$1.6B + $1.9B / 44,000 pounds = $79,545 per pound, delivered to the ISS.

That was commercial and competitive.  Sound cheap?

Lots of little vehicles will usually be more costly than a much smaller number of much larger vehicles, in my opinion.  It's one reason I support heavy lift like the Jupiter vehicles provide.

[A_M_Swallow]

I like Paragon's bid for a turn-key life support system. Really nice idea, and a great way to lower the costs of spacecraft (besides possibly making it easier/faster to design a new one).

I wonder how wide a definition of spacecraft applies?  A turn-key life support system could work in manned lunar rovers and in the building forming a Mars base.  The equipment would need to be able to work for months.

A single design would reduce the logistical overhead of carrying spares. 
Spares are normally N+1, possibly N+2.  For 2 different designs the spares are N+2 and M+2 giving a mass of 4 units.

[Jim]

If you can get to orbit for hundreds or thousands of dollars per pound instead of tens of thousands of dollars, then you'll see those things come about.  Also, as long as you have 3 or 4 providers consistently providing LEO access, that frees NASA and the development teams of those companies to turn their eyes to larger targets.

I absolutely do not buy that going commercial/competitive will drop the cost of moving stuff to LEO:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2008/12/spacex-and-orbital-win-huge-crs-contract-from-nasa/

$1.6B + $1.9B / 44,000 pounds = $79,545 per pound, delivered to the ISS.

That was commercial and competitive.  Sound cheap?

Lots of little vehicles will usually be more costly than a much smaller number of much larger vehicles, in my opinion.  It's one reason I support heavy lift like the Jupiter vehicles provide.

That was cargo into the ISS and not to orbit.  Completely different thing.  The whole spacecraft weight needs to be included.

The ISS can't take all the cargo in large increments.

[Patchouli]

So the EDS for the Atlas is kinda like the old Apollo LAS system.
http://www.apollosaturn.com/asnr/escape.htm

I have a feeling they been working on this years before yesterday's announcement.

EDS is a health monitoring system, not escape system.  The launch vehicle does not build the escape system

I was too vague in that post what I meant was specifically the emergency detection system of the Apollo LAS.

[HMXHMX]

If you can get to orbit for hundreds or thousands of dollars per pound instead of tens of thousands of dollars, then you'll see those things come about.  Also, as long as you have 3 or 4 providers consistently providing LEO access, that frees NASA and the development teams of those companies to turn their eyes to larger targets.

I absolutely do not buy that going commercial/competitive will drop the cost of moving stuff to LEO:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2008/12/spacex-and-orbital-win-huge-crs-contract-from-nasa/

$1.6B + $1.9B / 44,000 pounds = $79,545 per pound, delivered to the ISS.

That was commercial and competitive.  Sound cheap?

Lots of little vehicles will usually be more costly than a much smaller number of much larger vehicles, in my opinion.  It's one reason I support heavy lift like the Jupiter vehicles provide.

44,000 lbs per contractor.  SpaceX = $33K/lb.  Orbital = $43K/lb.

Yet I agree that the price is too high even at these levels.  A well-designed Atlas 5 solution might cut them in half.

[docmordrid]

Has anyone considered that SpaceX has talked about using a liquid LAS and that they could be thinking in terms of using Blue Origin's or something much like it? Seems an unlikely coincidence to me.

Seems this would have to be a short 'pancake' that could fit between their 2nd stage and partly inside the Dragon's trunk.

[Bernie Roehl]

Has anyone considered that SpaceX has talked about using a liquid LAS and that they could be thinking in terms of using Blue Origin's or something much like it? Seems an unlikely coincidence to me.

I do recall hearing something about SpaceX "not requiring funding for a LAS at this time".  Perhaps they're considering the Blue Origin system?

Between that and the Paragon LSS, SpaceX could save a *lot* of development time and money.

[yg1968]

Actually, it's the opposite. SpaceX says that it doesn't need more money from NASA except for the LAS. Apparently, SpaceX's CCDev proposal was for a LAS.

http://www.spacenews.com/civil/091113-discussions-commercial-crew-development-dollars.html

SpaceX’s proposal, industry sources said, involves development of a launch escape system the company needs in order to transform its reusable Dragon cargo capsule into a crewed vehicle. SpaceX spokeswoman Emily Shanklin declined comment.

[gladiator1332]

How will these vehicles fit into crew training? If we have astronauts flying on Dragon, Boeing's capsule, and Dreamchaser how is NASA going to decide which vehicle is used for a mission?

It is going to be tough for the astronauts to keep up with training when there are three possible vehicles to know procedures for, unless they are all going to share some commonality.

[Jim]

How will these vehicles fit into crew training? If we have astronauts flying on Dragon, Boeing's capsule, and Dreamchaser how is NASA going to decide which vehicle is used for a mission?

It is going to be tough for the astronauts to keep up with training when there are three possible vehicles to know procedures for, unless they are all going to share some commonality.

1.  NASA astronauts are going to be passengers
2.  which vehicle will be determines months (maybe two years) in advance*

*my opinion based on ELV and CRS timelines

[Serafeim]

there is some images for Boeing capsule or its just a plan for now?
its for leo only I suppose.There is a prediction about when will be ready?