NASA Selects Commercial Firms to Begin Development of Crew Transportation

[Robotbeat]

Did anybody catch the Tuesday press conference with Charles Bolden announcing the commercial crew transportation selections?

http://www.spaceref.com/calendar/calendar.html?pid=5805

I woke up a little late, so I'm just catching the end of Q&A. Anything interesting announced or answered in Q&A? The last two questions I caught were a question from a Russian reporter about the US-Russia partnership (response mentioned desire to not just have single way to get to orbit), and reporter from Houston asking about job creation.

Does anyone know where I can watch/listen to a recording of this?

[MP99]

The EDS monitors critical launch vehicle and spacecraft systems and issues status, warning and abort commands to the crew during their mission to Low Earth Orbit.  ULA studies show that the EDS development is the final technical risk to address prior to the launch of humans on its Atlas V and Delta IV launch vehicles. 

(My highlight)

So why were NASA going to waste all that money HR'ing the RS-68?

RL-10's OK in it's current form, too? Even the B-2 on the Delta IV?

Sometimes it's the details that make you realise just how big a change the new world is going to be.

Martin

[ugordan]

Besides, ULA is getting money to man-rate their rocket, so even ULA doesn't think that their rockets are safe for carrying crew at this point.

No, they are getting money for a common EDS.

They might offer their vehicles as is but with an EDS.

You know a lot more than I do on this but isn't an EDS and a LAS part of man-rating a rocket?

(emphasis mine)
Uh, let me take a stab at this. Developing an EDS for a rocket does not mean it's unsafe. Quite the contrary, it means it's safe enough for people to sit atop it. What an EDS does is increase this safety further by allowing the crew to get an early warning and escape sufficiently ahead of time in the event of an (unlikely) failure.

You don't develop an EDS (or a LAS for that matter) for an inherently unsafe rocket, noone is really interested in needing the LAS to work every 3rd time. It's sort of a last stand device to save the crew, not primary safety mechanism. Good design and vehicle reliability is.

[Jim]

So why were NASA going to waste all that money HR'ing the RS-68?

RL-10's OK in it's current form, too? Even the B-2 on the Delta IV?

NASA manrating requirements are not applicable to commercial vehicles.

[rdale]

Does anyone know where I can watch/listen to a recording of this?

Keep an eye on the NASATV YouTube channel, and John44's website.

[agman25]

So why were NASA going to waste all that money HR'ing the RS-68?

RL-10's OK in it's current form, too? Even the B-2 on the Delta IV?

NASA manrating requirements are not applicable to commercial vehicles.

Isn't NASA going to need some standards if they want their people flying in these things

[Robotbeat]

Does anyone know where I can watch/listen to a recording of this?

Keep an eye on the NASATV YouTube channel, and John44's website.

They are replaying it on NASA TV right now.

[Robotbeat]

I like Paragon's bid for a turn-key life support system. Really nice idea, and a great way to lower the costs of spacecraft (besides possibly making it easier/faster to design a new one).

[yg1968]

Does anyone know where I can watch/listen to a recording of this?

Keep an eye on the NASATV YouTube channel, and John44's website.

It is now on NASA's YouTube channel:

[Robotbeat]

Thanks, yg1968! Now I can pause it.

[Jim]

So why were NASA going to waste all that money HR'ing the RS-68?

RL-10's OK in it's current form, too? Even the B-2 on the Delta IV?

NASA manrating requirements are not applicable to commercial vehicles.

Isn't NASA going to need some standards if they want their people flying in these things

And they are TBD.

[cgrunska]

I like Paragon's bid for a turn-key life support system. Really nice idea, and a great way to lower the costs of spacecraft (besides possibly making it easier/faster to design a new one).

how so?

edit:
does this mean they would design a life support system like common module that was purchased per mission that would be used for any and all missions?

[neilh]

It is now on NASA's YouTube channel:

Thanks! I wrote up a few more notes while watching the video:

(sorry about formatting)

•   Charles Bolden takes a moment to thank the Constellation team for their years of dedicated service
•   "We want to explore new worlds, we want to develop more innovative technologies, we want to foster new industries, and we want to increase our understanding of Earth, the solar system, and the universe."
•   "each awardee also proposed significant investment from other sources to leverage taxpayer investment"
•   Blue Origin
o   award to fund "risk mitigation activities related to its development of pusher launch escape system, and to develop a composite crew module for structural testing."
•   Boeing
o   space transportation system which includes a 7-person capsule to launch on medium-lift expendable launch systems
•   Paragon
o   woman-owned small business
o   has directly supported more than 70 spaceflight missions
o   for a development unit of environmental control and lift support air revitalization system
•   Sierra Nevada
o   Dream Chaser, 7-person spacecraft to be launched on Atlas V-402 vehicle
•   ULA
o   emergency detecting system to monitor vehicle health of Atlas V and Delta IV rockets
•   they are the vanguard; certainly adding to this group in the near future
•   comments from presidents/reps
o   ULA
   EDS work for commercial crew and making sure products are more reliable for all customers
o   Blue Origin
   pusher escape system, at back of capsule to avoid jettison event, not consumed on nominal launch so it lowers operating costs
   composite capsule will improve durability over conventional technology and lower weight
o   Boeing
   principal teammate Bigelow Aerospace
   Bigelow represents most probable near-term market for crew transportation to LEO other than NASA
   want to satisfy both Bigelow's needs and NASA's
   parallel with Bill Boeing's young company and airmail to delivering cargo and crew to ISS
o   Paragon
   developing air revitalization system
   first of its kind: a turn-key system, usable on pretty much any spacecraft
   had very first commercial experiment on ISS
o   Sierra Nevada
   developed under unfunded Space Act agreement for past two years
   based on NASA's HL-20 from 20 years ago
o   Orbital Sciences
   um, talked for quite a while
o   SpaceX
   spoke about collaborations with NASA
•   Q&A
o   Do you have a destination and timetable?
   tiger teams working on destinations and putting together timetables now
o   in-orbit refueling?
   going from a space station to some other place in the solar system, being able to launch with a lighter vehicle
   if we have a place we can go once we get out of the gravity well to refuel, it means we don't need to have the types of complex heavy costly vehicles
   hope to facilitate public discussion on where we should be going and how we go there
o   announcement greeted with dismay, what do you say to those who feel we're giving up being at the forefront?
   we still are the nation at the forefront
   anecdote from Jeff Hanley,  constellation manager, about how we're not turning away from human spaceflight
o   question about lessons from Columbia accident
o   Charles Bolden: "We have defined destinations about where we want to go, and we will go there incrementally. It's our technological development that will help determine where you go first. We want to take advantage of opportunities that will come as the technology develops."
o   question: how will this stay on-time and on-budget, when Constellation didn't?
   President has given us a healthy budget this time
o   question from a Russian reporter about the US-Russia partnership (response mentioned desire to not just have single way to get to orbit)
o   question from reporter from Houston asking about job creation

[CriX]

Great, thanks!  Couldn't watch this from work.  Thanks for the notes.

[Jim]

http://www.ulalaunch.com/docs/publications/AtlasEmergencyDetectionSystem.pdf

[notsorandom]

Thanks for that pdf Jim! Reading through it two thoughts occurred to me. Is ULA planning only to use the Atlas V? The report talks 76 parameters to be monitored, 37 on the booster and 39 on the Centaur. There is no mention of monitoring solid rocket motor performance. Does this mean that for crewed launches they will not be used? In the announcement today it was state that Dream Chaser is to fly on an Atlas 402.

[Bernie Roehl]

Thanks for that pdf Jim! Reading through it two thoughts occurred to me. Is ULA planning only to use the Atlas V? The report talks 76 parameters to be monitored, 37 on the booster and 39 on the Centaur. There is no mention of monitoring solid rocket motor performance. Does this mean that for crewed launches they will not be used? In the announcement today it was state that Dream Chaser is to fly on an Atlas 402.

My assumption is that the same error detection system will be used for both Atlas V and Delta IV.  Atlas already appears to be well instrumented (including the RD180 engines), but the Delta may require some additional sensors.

From what I heard listening to today's briefing, it sounds like...

* Atlas V and Delta IV will both be equipped with error detection

* The spacecraft will be Boeing/Bigelow capsule and Dream Chaser

* Both will launch on Atlas V, probably on Delta IV as well

* The escape systems on both will be a "pusher" rocket (think of the retro pack on Mercury) instead of a more convention "tower"

* Paragon will provide "turn-key" life support for either one (and possibly Dragon as well)

If they're going to use Delta, they will probably want a separate pad for crewed launches.

SpaceX will have their Dragon on Falcon 9, and could possibly launch the Dream Chaser or conceivably even the Boeing/Bigelow capsule.  All the spacecraft are around 9 or 10 mt.  Falcon 9 is supposed to launch 10mt, Atlas 402 12.5mt, and Delta IV Heavy 22.5mt.  All three vehicles carry a crew of seven.

So... multiple human-rated launchers and multiple spacecraft, to provide an uninterrupted launch capability to ISS even if some of the combinations are grounded due to failures.  If it works, it's not a bad idea.  But no heavy lift, and no human exploration of space.

[Patchouli]

So the EDS for the Atlas is kinda like the old Apollo LAS system.
http://www.apollosaturn.com/asnr/escape.htm

I have a feeling they been working on this years before yesterday's announcement.

[Swatch]

If it works, it's not a bad idea.  But no heavy lift, and no human exploration of space.

No heavy lift and no human exploration of beyond earth orbit right now.

If you can get to orbit for hundreds or thousands of dollars per pound instead of tens of thousands of dollars, then you'll see those things come about.  Also, as long as you have 3 or 4 providers consistently providing LEO access, that frees NASA and the development teams of those companies to turn their eyes to larger targets.   As long as NASA has to play mother-hen to LEO access AS well as development of BEO access, something has to give.

[Patchouli]

If it works, it's not a bad idea.  But no heavy lift, and no human exploration of space.

No heavy lift and no human exploration of beyond earth orbit right now.

If you can get to orbit for hundreds or thousands of dollars per pound instead of tens of thousands of dollars, then you'll see those things come about.  Also, as long as you have 3 or 4 providers consistently providing LEO access, that frees NASA and the development teams of those companies to turn their eyes to larger targets.   As long as NASA has to play mother-hen to LEO access AS well as development of BEO access, something has to give.

Heavy lift is not completely out I did see 3.1B for heavy lift studies in the budget.

I suspect a heavy lift SDLV similar to Direct or Shuttle-C will be a given as things are sorted out to placate certain political interests.

ATK and it's allies may shut up if thrown a very fat bone.

Besides this way is better they'll end up filling an empty niche vs competing with commercial LVs.