Author Topic: Armadillo Aerospace Update Thread  (Read 244721 times)

Offline Moe Grills

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Re: New Update Posted at Armadillo Aerospace
« Reply #240 on: 12/23/2011 09:47 pm »
Yep, and here's the relevant section about the roll issue:
Quote
As you can see in the video, the rocket wobbled at around cloud level, which was a combination of atmospheric turbulence combined with the rocket going through the transonic regime. The roll control vanes high on the rocket had good authority on the roll rate, but experienced a control inversion from 460-480m/s. That control inversion, likely from a shockwave reflecting off the cable fairing, meant that as the vanes moved to reduce the roll they actually increased it.

Given unexpectedly increased roll control in the wrong direction the rocket did a snap roll, which increased the roll rate beyond the software's preset roll rate limit. Upon exceeding that limit, the rocket went into a preprogrammed mode to maximize the burn by locking the roll vanes and engine gimbal to center. The roll rate dropped and Stiga continued on unguided, watching the GPS to ensure that it was not exceeding the preset maximum range.

That reminds me of what those 'lucky' test-pilots, who survived, reported
when prior to Chuck Yeager's attempt they told that when their high-speed aircraft entered the transonic zone, approaching Mach-1,
their aircraft controls did not respond in ways they expected; even
doing the opposite of what the controls were supposed to do.


As for atmospheric turbulence? Winds? I guess any agency, group or individual attempting to launch high-altitude rockets will never get away from the need of using meteorological sounding-balloons before any viable launch attempt.
« Last Edit: 12/23/2011 10:00 pm by Moe Grills »

Offline douglas100

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Re: New Update Posted at Armadillo Aerospace
« Reply #241 on: 12/23/2011 10:35 pm »
Great stuff, and interesting information about the roll control that I asked about earlier.
Douglas Clark

Online Robotbeat

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Re: New Update Posted at Armadillo Aerospace
« Reply #242 on: 01/18/2012 05:13 am »
https://twitter.com/#!/ID_AA_Carmack/status/158385393862066177/photo/1
Quote
Jan 14, 2012
ID_AA_Carmack
John Carmack
Nozzle extension for better high altitude performance on next flight pic.twitter.com/IX3EUXjB
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Offline simonbp

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Re: New Update Posted at Armadillo Aerospace
« Reply #243 on: 01/18/2012 02:43 pm »
I remember (6+ years ago), Carmack really talking up a nozzleless rocket as the Next Big Thing. Now, they're putting nozzle extensions on their rockets... ;)
« Last Edit: 01/18/2012 02:45 pm by simonbp »

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: New Update Posted at Armadillo Aerospace
« Reply #244 on: 01/19/2012 02:33 pm »
https://twitter.com/#!/ID_AA_Carmack/status/158385393862066177/photo/1
Quote
Jan 14, 2012
ID_AA_Carmack
John Carmack
Nozzle extension for better high altitude performance on next flight pic.twitter.com/IX3EUXjB

That looks to be a conical nozzle.  I thought that profile wasn't the most efficient.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline nacnud

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Re: New Update Posted at Armadillo Aerospace
« Reply #245 on: 01/19/2012 02:43 pm »
It isn't but is probably better than no extension.

Offline simonbp

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Re: New Update Posted at Armadillo Aerospace
« Reply #246 on: 01/19/2012 02:59 pm »
The optimal nozzle is closer to a hyperboloid, but since in that case the part that would be non-conical is the part of the nozzle that's already there, they can't really change it. So, working with what they had, the conical extension makes by far the most amount of sense. If they were to machine a new altitude engine from scratch, then a hyperboloid nozzle would make sense (and have slightly higher thrust and Isp than the cone).

Online Robotbeat

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Re: New Update Posted at Armadillo Aerospace
« Reply #247 on: 01/19/2012 03:05 pm »
The optimal nozzle is closer to a hyperboloid, but since in that case the part that would be non-conical is the part of the nozzle that's already there, they can't really change it. So, working with what they had, the conical extension makes by far the most amount of sense. If they were to machine a new altitude engine from scratch, then a hyperboloid nozzle would make sense (and have slightly higher thrust and Isp than the cone).
Hyperboloid near the throat, maybe, but the rest optimal when it is closer to a paraboloid.
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Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: New Update Posted at Armadillo Aerospace
« Reply #248 on: 01/19/2012 05:19 pm »
I too thought parabloid was best.  Back to Sutton this evening for a re-read.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline simonbp

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Re: New Update Posted at Armadillo Aerospace
« Reply #249 on: 01/20/2012 01:55 am »
A parabola is just a hyperbola with eccentricity equal to unity.

At any rate, because of throat effects and the exhaust heating the nozzle (thus causing non-adiabatic expansion), the actual optimal shape is not a perfect parabola, but more closely approximated by narrower hyperbola. IIRC, a parabola is only optimal for an infinitely small throat and perfectly adiabatic exhaust.

Online Robotbeat

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Re: New Update Posted at Armadillo Aerospace
« Reply #250 on: 01/21/2012 03:45 am »
@wikkit
Ben Brockert
"We did a full engine burn on the Armadillo Stiga again today, here's one photo from that. twitpic.com/89o1lt "
"Six steel cables in pairs anchored to three 1-yard concrete blocks buried in the ground."
"The vehicle is also being held up by a crane truck, by the way. It's not hovering at the end of the cables or anything."

(BTW, I believe that the hyperboloid-at-the-parabolic-limit-for-the-rest-of-the-nozzle and the hyperboloid-at-the-throat are revolved around different axes, so they aren't the same thing, though the fundamental 2d shape is, of course, a conic section.)
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Online Robotbeat

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Re: New Update Posted at Armadillo Aerospace
« Reply #251 on: 01/29/2012 06:29 am »
Another successful (mostly?) Stiga launch!

From Jeff Foust on twitter about 7 hours ago:
http://twitter.com/#!/jeff_foust

"Just got a press release from the NM Spaceport Authority that Armadillo Aerospace did another STIG-A test flight today at Spaceport America.
...
According to the release, "the rocket was successfully retrieved after a hard landing" in the planned recovery zone.
...
Take[off] was successful according to the release and rocket reached 137,000 ft. However, its recovery system "did not function properly"."
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Offline QuantumG

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Re: New Update Posted at Armadillo Aerospace
« Reply #252 on: 01/29/2012 06:32 am »
"Parachutes sucks" - John Carmack, before changing his mind :)
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

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Re: New Update Posted at Armadillo Aerospace
« Reply #253 on: 01/29/2012 07:02 am »
"Parachutes sucks" - John Carmack, before changing his mind :)

Maybe early-Carmack was right?

(personally, I just think that recovery mechanisms are hard... think of how long it took Armadillo to get to this point of flying to over 100,000 feet successfully twice... getting the recovery system to work reliably may take a while).
« Last Edit: 01/29/2012 07:04 am by Robotbeat »
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Offline QuantumG

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Re: New Update Posted at Armadillo Aerospace
« Reply #254 on: 01/29/2012 07:57 am »
Maybe early-Carmack was right?

:)

Quote
(personally, I just think that recovery mechanisms are hard... think of how long it took Armadillo to get to this point of flying to over 100,000 feet successfully twice... getting the recovery system to work reliably may take a while).

Yeah, they had a great recovery system.. legs and fuel.. but they decided they needed to go with parachutes and set that aside. Last I heard, the suborbital space tourism vehicle they're working on for Space Adventures is going to use parachutes too. (!)
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Online Robotbeat

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Re: New Update Posted at Armadillo Aerospace
« Reply #255 on: 01/30/2012 07:02 am »
Maybe early-Carmack was right?

:)

Quote
(personally, I just think that recovery mechanisms are hard... think of how long it took Armadillo to get to this point of flying to over 100,000 feet successfully twice... getting the recovery system to work reliably may take a while).

Yeah, they had a great recovery system.. legs and fuel.. but they decided they needed to go with parachutes and set that aside. Last I heard, the suborbital space tourism vehicle they're working on for Space Adventures is going to use parachutes too. (!)
Yeah, it's like someone switched the brains of Musk and Carmack about a year or two ago. (Carmack abandoned vertical landing and is taking up parachutes... Musk abandoned parachutes and is taking up vertical landing.)
« Last Edit: 01/30/2012 07:03 am by Robotbeat »
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Offline dcporter

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Re: New Update Posted at Armadillo Aerospace
« Reply #256 on: 01/30/2012 11:53 am »
Yeah, it's like someone switched the brains of Musk and Carmack about a year or two ago. (Carmack abandoned vertical landing and is taking up parachutes... Musk abandoned parachutes and is taking up vertical landing.)
Parachutes apparently don't work from orbit or near-orbit, while VTVL seems complicated, expensive to engineer, and overkill for suborbital trips. Sounds to me like Carmack woke up to economic realities, and Musk woke up to physical ones. =)

Offline ugordan

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Re: New Update Posted at Armadillo Aerospace
« Reply #257 on: 01/30/2012 12:03 pm »
Twin sonic booms from Stiga reentry:


Offline Chris Bergin

Re: Armadillo Aerospace Update Thread
« Reply #258 on: 01/30/2012 12:06 pm »
Changed the thread title to something better.
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Offline MikeMelga

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Re: New Update Posted at Armadillo Aerospace
« Reply #259 on: 01/30/2012 02:58 pm »
Yeah, it's like someone switched the brains of Musk and Carmack about a year or two ago. (Carmack abandoned vertical landing and is taking up parachutes... Musk abandoned parachutes and is taking up vertical landing.)
Parachutes apparently don't work from orbit or near-orbit, while VTVL seems complicated, expensive to engineer, and overkill for suborbital trips. Sounds to me like Carmack woke up to economic realities, and Musk woke up to physical ones. =)
Also I think there is a limit on the weight you can put on parachutes. A parachute being opened would create a massive instant deceleration that would break any aramid/vectran lines. Physic properties of materials are not scalable...

I guess they would have to be multi stage parachutes (small-medium-big), which would require very thick aramid lines which would have problems in folding. Then the points of attachment would have to be massively reinforced.

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