Author Topic: A new vision for space exploration  (Read 6939 times)

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: A new vision for space exploration
« Reply #20 on: 01/27/2010 02:42 PM »
The Walmart Imperium?   WAAAaaaaahhhhh!

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline MP99

Re: A new vision for space exploration
« Reply #21 on: 01/27/2010 03:52 PM »
Space telescopes - like all telescopes and many other structures - like stable thermal environments and an unlimited viewing field. They also don't like dust. All this speaks against the Moon. Even LEO is better than the Moon. Go to an Lagrange point and you are done. Less delta v needed too.

Analyst


Hmm, how about an I/R telescope at Aitken basin, which was recently reported as one of the coldest places in the Solar System.

Something like Herschel (http://www.esa.int/esaSC/120390_index_0_m.html), but it wouldn't run out of coollant because it would just operate at ambient temperatures.

Would have a restricted field of view, of course.

cheers, Martin

Offline tamarack

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Re: A new vision for space exploration
« Reply #22 on: 02/01/2010 12:41 AM »
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The International Space Telescope, a moon based, upgradable, modular Telescope on a par with the best here on Earth i.e with a really big mirror.
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Passenger travel; to Moon Orbit - Orion or Soyuz launched to Earth orbit on Soyuz rocket or commercial US rocket. In Earth orbit the EDS would be assembled with the passenger craft. (1 launch)

Heavy lift launching of EDS - Ariane with 2 Shuttle derived reusable boosters. (may require 2 Ariane  launches?)
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All the major nations get to participate but they all depend on each other to make the project work.
   
Such a new large telescope would have discoveries that would make Hubble's achievements look small. And all could claim credit for the new telescope's successes.
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As mentioned by others, the Lunar surface is a terrible place for an optical telescope. It's counterproductive to launch a telescope ionto space only to obscure its veiw with a horizon and atmosphere of dust. A tremendous amount of energy would be required prevent dust accumulation, if it could be done at all. Telescopes don't like to be handled and landing one on the Moon is very problematic. Any repairs would require a Moon landing.

No problem with international cooperation when the mundane is proposed, but politics is the art of stagnation and slow death. To accomplish anything of value, the US must take the lead and blaze paths without dragging along the dead weight of commities, negotiations, favors and squabbles. For these same reasons, I'm a proponent of transfering most of NASAs R&D to the DoD.

Except for possibly the eccentric uber-rich, passengers won't be going to the Moon anytime this century. It will be a miracle if vacations in LEO for passangers becomes practical in that time. At best, private science missions and breif orbits by passangers to LEO is feasible in the near future.

Not sure why you think an Ariane core with Shuttle SRBs is possible.
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OT:
As to others idea of a One-World-Government; That's an impossibility as it contradicts human nature. Check history and there's a pattern of civilizations being built in individuality and freedom, but destroyed by expansive government. The life of Empires growing increassingly brief.
  Could the US have been formed or prospered to become the greatest nation on Earth without explicit restraints on Federal powers? Would the foundations of Western philosphy, politics and science been possible if Greek city-states had never existed? How'd consolidated powers like Rome, the USSR or League of Nations do? What is the reaction around the globe to the impression of the US's attempts to consolidate power?
  If the archaic politics of a One-World-Government is reformed, it would suffer a short and horrific existance as humanity (except 'progressives') have evolved far beyond accepting the elimination of voice, choice and the reward of individual accomplishment.

Offline Nascent Ascent

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Re: A new vision for space exploration
« Reply #23 on: 02/01/2010 01:06 AM »
North Korea and Iran?   :o

Ariane with Shuttle derived SRBs?   :o
 
I can't even imagine a science fiction book with such a premise.
“Why should we send people into space when we have kids in the U.S. that can’t read”. - Barack Obama

Offline daveklingler

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Re: A new vision for space exploration
« Reply #24 on: 02/02/2010 07:14 AM »
Space telescopes - like all telescopes and many other structures - like stable thermal environments and an unlimited viewing field. They also don't like dust. All this speaks against the Moon. Even LEO is better than the Moon. Go to an Lagrange point and you are done. Less delta v needed too.

Analyst

We had a lot of conversations about this topic over the years in the space-based astronomy sessions of the ASCE Space XX conferences.  Space telescopes (like terrestrial telescopes) like a stable platform best of all, and the Moon is hard to beat.  Dust is not an issue because there's no atmosphere to carry it.  Horizon is not a big issue.  Overall, the best place to put a space telescope is right on the Moon.

Offline tamarack

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Re: A new vision for space exploration
« Reply #25 on: 02/02/2010 09:43 AM »
We had a lot of conversations about this topic over the years in the space-based astronomy sessions of the ASCE Space XX conferences.  Space telescopes (like terrestrial telescopes) like a stable platform best of all, and the Moon is hard to beat.  Dust is not an issue because there's no atmosphere to carry it.  Horizon is not a big issue.  Overall, the best place to put a space telescope is right on the Moon.

The atmosphere is dust. Solar radiation energizes and charges the surface, expelling Lunar dust. This dust either lingers until sunset or flows to the night side to settle. Like water on Earth, the Moon has a solar-created cycle of 'evaporation and condensation' that steadily covers everything.
« Last Edit: 02/02/2010 09:44 AM by tamarack »

Offline Nascent Ascent

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Re: A new vision for space exploration
« Reply #26 on: 02/02/2010 10:13 AM »
We had a lot of conversations about this topic over the years in the space-based astronomy sessions of the ASCE Space XX conferences.  Space telescopes (like terrestrial telescopes) like a stable platform best of all, and the Moon is hard to beat.  Dust is not an issue because there's no atmosphere to carry it.  Horizon is not a big issue.  Overall, the best place to put a space telescope is right on the Moon.

The atmosphere is dust. Solar radiation energizes and charges the surface, expelling Lunar dust. This dust either lingers until sunset or flows to the night side to settle. Like water on Earth, the Moon has a solar-created cycle of 'evaporation and condensation' that steadily covers everything.

Dust is a huge issue.  You're not going to be able to beam down this space telescope to the lunar surface.  You're going to need workers on the ground with boots and that means dust being kicked up. Have you ever seen photos of the moon walkers and how dirty they got?
“Why should we send people into space when we have kids in the U.S. that can’t read”. - Barack Obama

Offline butters

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Re: A new vision for space exploration
« Reply #27 on: 02/02/2010 10:54 AM »
No, the only way we are ever going to get off this rock in any meaningful way is to find a way to make rich people even richer.  And by richer, I mean filthy stinking richer. And if it helps poor and middle class people too, then all the better.  As long as the rich get richer!

Show the rich people of the world how to make a few $billion in space, and you will see the checkbooks open up faster than NBC can fire a late-night show host!

Mark S.
(not rich at all)

Reality television filmed in space.  Of course, microgravity pornography would almost certainly be the earliest adopter.

Humans have simple wants.  After we're housed, clothed, fed, and medicated, basically what's left is our desire to be entertained.

The purchase intent for space exploration is almost entirely based on the extent to which we find it entertaining.  Let's face it, many of the space "enthusiasts" on this board are characterized by a tendency to find all of this space stuff thoroughly entertaining.

The products of space exploration are pretty pictures and compelling narratives.  It's show business.  I'm not sure if NBC is the best choice, but if we do space exploration, it should be directed, in large part, for entertainment value.  The folks at Pixar may have ideas.

Man is one of two animal species (the other is our primate relative the bonobo) known to engage in recreational copulation.  Keep that in mind when considering what humanity really wants out of space exploration.

Offline Lampyridae

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Re: A new vision for space exploration
« Reply #28 on: 02/02/2010 11:09 AM »
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Man is one of two animal species (the other is our primate relative the bonobo) known to engage in recreational copulation.  Keep that in mind when considering what humanity really wants out of space exploration.

Dolphins, too.

But the basic premise of the thread is good. Give various parts of the pie to various countries. Let them develop their own space infrastructure as well. Look at what ATV did for Europe. If it weren't for ISS, ESA would have no astronauts and just be sending more boxes with cameras into space.
SKYLON... The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen's preferred surface-to-orbit conveyance.

Offline gospacex

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Re: A new vision for space exploration
« Reply #29 on: 02/02/2010 02:49 PM »
Hi all

I think we have to go in a radically new direction in terms of outer space exploration. We need to have a practical use for Space, one with immediate demonstrable benefits for all the nations that would participate.

With this in mind I present the following idea. I freely admit I am not a rocket scientist but maybe this will at least stimulate some discussion.

The vision is - The International Space Telescope, a moon based, upgradable, modular Telescope on a par with the best here on Earth i.e with a really big mirror.

Participating countries - USA, Russia, China (yes China), Australia, Canada, UK, EU, North Korea, South Korea, Iran

More, more, more, more bureaucracy and spice it up with religious and ideological fanatics. Brilliant.

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