Author Topic: DIRECT v3.0 - Thread 3  (Read 872291 times)

Offline AnalogMan

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Re: DIRECT v3.0 - Thread 3
« Reply #2020 on: 01/20/2010 11:47 am »
Does anyone want to give insight as to who these 3 people are that the Direct group met with yesterday?

William H. Gerstenmaier, Associate Administrator for Space Operations
Douglas R. Cooke, Associate Administrator for Exploration Systems Mission Directorate
Phil Sumrall, Exploration Launch Projects Advanced Planning Manager, MSFC
Geoff Yoder, Director, Constellation Systems Division, NASA HQ

Offline kirghizstan

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Re: DIRECT v3.0 - Thread 3
« Reply #2021 on: 01/20/2010 11:59 am »
Does anyone want to give insight as to who these 3 people are that the Direct group met with yesterday?

William H. Gerstenmaier, Associate Administrator for Space Operations
Douglas R. Cooke, Associate Administrator for Exploration Systems Mission Directorate
Phil Sumrall, Exploration Launch Projects Advanced Planning Manager, MSFC
Geoff Yoder, Director, Constellation Systems Division, NASA HQ

i'm a n00b and i didn't feel like googling it while i should really be getting read for work.  thanks

Offline Lab Lemming

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Re: DIRECT v3.0 - Thread 3
« Reply #2022 on: 01/20/2010 12:00 pm »
There has been lots of talk about engines and segments and stretches over the last few weeks, but I was wondering- how will any of this fly without avionics?  And how does turning the program upside down effect that, especially if the core has to be able to function as a sole stage or a booster?

Offline Downix

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Re: DIRECT v3.0 - Thread 3
« Reply #2023 on: 01/20/2010 12:05 pm »
There has been lots of talk about engines and segments and stretches over the last few weeks, but I was wondering- how will any of this fly without avionics?  And how does turning the program upside down effect that, especially if the core has to be able to function as a sole stage or a booster?
Many of the avionics can be derived from existing systems.  Which is why few people give it mind. 
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Offline Analyst

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Re: DIRECT v3.0 - Thread 3
« Reply #2024 on: 01/20/2010 12:23 pm »
This derivation form existing systems almost never is as easy as you suggest. Just ask DoD and its countless cost overruns. Or Arianespace which used Ariane 4 software for Ariane 5.

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Offline sewand

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Re: DIRECT v3.0 - Thread 3
« Reply #2025 on: 01/20/2010 12:23 pm »
There has been lots of talk about engines and segments and stretches over the last few weeks, but I was wondering- how will any of this fly without avionics?  And how does turning the program upside down effect that, especially if the core has to be able to function as a sole stage or a booster?
Many of the avionics can be derived from existing systems.  Which is why few people give it mind. 

Avionics will be a time-consuming and expensive part of the project.  But in comparison, Delta 4 flies with a variety of solid and liquid boosters, upper stages, etc.   

Offline Eer

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Re: DIRECT v3.0 - Thread 3
« Reply #2026 on: 01/20/2010 12:25 pm »
Thank you for identifying the roles of the participants - it helps me appreciate that much more the significance of the meeting, and the success it represents in getting the story heard at the "right levels". 

And I'm glad to hear from Ross that the meeting went well.

Offline phantomdj

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Re: DIRECT v3.0 - Thread 3
« Reply #2027 on: 01/20/2010 12:49 pm »

We had a very good meeting this morning with Bill Gerstenmaier, Doug Cooke, Phil Sumrall and Geoff Yoder.

We will not go into the details of the meeting, other than to say our presentation was well received, generated two-way questions and answers and that there was sufficient interest that we will definitely be providing more information and will also be engaging in further discussions.   I think I speak for all my colleagues when I say that I am very happy with this whole trip.


Ross,

I'd be real interested in your take of Geoff Yoder, Director, Constellation Systems Division, and his questions, comments and general openness to DIRECT and the Jupiter option at your meeting.
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Offline mars.is.wet

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Offline phantomdj

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Re: DIRECT v3.0 - Thread 3
« Reply #2029 on: 01/20/2010 02:34 pm »
It looks like Obama will not mention space in the SOTU and just let his budget do the talking with an additional $1 bn or so (a pittance compared to the orgy of overspending the Congress has be authorizing) which is curious since he has to give us the vision as to where to go.  This leaves Congress to complete policy legislation governing NASA by May or June.  Hopefully Bolden will announce the type of vehicle (a J-24xSH variant) before then.

This means a first test launch date no earlier than early 2014.  With boots on the ground handling hardware no more than a 1 year ahead of time this leaves a 2 1/2 to 3 year gap for the contractors.  It will be interesting to see what they and NASA decide, layoff and try to rehire later, keep a minimal core group and try to rehire later or keep most of the team.

There will be equipment and test sets to build or maintain and assembly and test procedures to write for the new hardware so some core group will are least be needed during the interim.  However, Mark Nappi, vice president of launch and recovery systems for USA said, "There is no manageable reduction in workforce, this is a cliff…We'll see 4,500 jobs leave Florida in a manner of months."

Any ideas to the timeline for the first test flight?
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Offline FinalFrontier

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Re: DIRECT v3.0 - Thread 3
« Reply #2030 on: 01/20/2010 03:00 pm »
It looks like Obama will not mention space in the SOTU and just let his budget do the talking with an additional $1 bn or so (a pittance compared to the orgy of overspending the Congress has be authorizing) which is curious since he has to give us the vision as to where to go.  This leaves Congress to complete policy legislation governing NASA by May or June.  Hopefully Bolden will announce the type of vehicle (a J-24xSH variant) before then.

This means a first test launch date no earlier than early 2014.  With boots on the ground handling hardware no more than a 1 year ahead of time this leaves a 2 1/2 to 3 year gap for the contractors.  It will be interesting to see what they and NASA decide, layoff and try to rehire later, keep a minimal core group and try to rehire later or keep most of the team.

There will be equipment and test sets to build or maintain and assembly and test procedures to write for the new hardware so some core group will are least be needed during the interim.  However, Mark Nappi, vice president of launch and recovery systems for USA said, "There is no manageable reduction in workforce, this is a cliff…We'll see 4,500 jobs leave Florida in a manner of months."

Any ideas to the timeline for the first test flight?

I would expect that the budget will not, at least publicly reflect much. Instead I think that at some point between now and Febuary 3rd Bolden will make the anouncment for the new type of vehicle, architecture, ect, (also shuttle extension through 2011) I believe that if Brown had not won a huge upset, this probably would have all been in the SOTU speech. Now I don;t think he (POTUS) can even make a brief mention of it. As to the "path" (i.e. flexible path) I am not sure who will make that anouncment. The "let the budget do the talking" does not make a whole lot of sense to me as you still have to publicly give a speech or press realese that defines what it is that you are funding you cannot just say: "Up 1 billion dollars for new direction, new HLV, Shuttle extension..ect.". That wouldn't make any sense to anyone except those in the know (general public would go: "Huh??") Based on this, someone will have to give a speech on this and if POTUS isn't going to do it it will probably be Bolden. We may even get lucky and get a speech or press release on this (from Bolden, NASA) on Friday. :D Also, pertaining to that ASAP report: What in the world??? ASAP has lost all its merit and value if they are that biased. Too bad, they used to be helpful.
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Offline FinalFrontier

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Re: DIRECT v3.0 - Thread 3
« Reply #2031 on: 01/20/2010 03:03 pm »
Also, pertaining to your question about the first test flight:
Assuming Direct Jupiter 24x series (block 1 rl10b2, block 2 j2x) is approved in its entirety and an extra 1 billion comes in:
At the earliest there might be a 1-x flight in very late 2013 of a J140. But I doubt it. Probably a year later. Ask ross for specifics.
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Offline phantomdj

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Re: DIRECT v3.0 - Thread 3
« Reply #2032 on: 01/20/2010 03:11 pm »
Also, pertaining to your question about the first test flight:
Assuming Direct Jupiter 24x series (block 1 rl10b2, block 2 j2x) is approved in its entirety and an extra 1 billion comes in:
At the earliest there might be a 1-x flight in very late 2013 of a J140. But I doubt it. Probably a year later. Ask ross for specifics.

It's 36 months for a J-140 and 42 months for a J-140SH (minimum time).  That's why I said the first test launch date no earlier than early 2014 (assuming we're going with a J-24xSH type vehicle).
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Offline clongton

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Re: DIRECT v3.0 - Thread 3
« Reply #2033 on: 01/20/2010 03:13 pm »
Also, pertaining to your question about the first test flight:
Assuming Direct Jupiter 24x series (block 1 rl10b2, block 2 j2x) is approved in its entirety and an extra 1 billion comes in:
At the earliest there might be a 1-x flight in very late 2013 of a J140. But I doubt it. Probably a year later. Ask ross for specifics.

It is highly unlikely that the Jupiter will "be approved in its entirety". We have said all along, for years now, that whatever NASA does, it will be a NASA design. What we are hoping for is that sufficient commonality exists between what we have done and what NASA ultimately does to validate our hope that we were able to help.
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I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline Analyst

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Re: DIRECT v3.0 - Thread 3
« Reply #2034 on: 01/20/2010 03:13 pm »
What would be the purpose of such a (test) flight? Keep people working? If this being the reason, continue Shuttle for a few more flights. At least it would serve some real purpose.

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Offline clongton

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Re: DIRECT v3.0 - Thread 3
« Reply #2035 on: 01/20/2010 03:15 pm »
Test flights are for gathering and validating data that will be used for the operational vehicle. It is not a jobs program, although the test flights will help some people to remain employed.
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Offline phantomdj

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Re: DIRECT v3.0 - Thread 3
« Reply #2036 on: 01/20/2010 03:21 pm »
The "let the budget do the talking" does not make a whole lot of sense to me as you still have to publicly give a speech or press realese that defines what it is that you are funding you cannot just say: "Up 1 billion dollars for new direction, new HLV, Shuttle extension..ect.". That wouldn't make any sense to anyone except those in the know (general public would go: "Huh??") Based on this, someone will have to give a speech on this and if POTUS isn't going to do it it will probably be Bolden.

I agree but that is the impression Senator Bill Nelson (Fl) got from Obama, that he was not going to have a separate speech.  Nelson said that was "a mistake" and I agree.  Obama not Bolden will have to give us the direction and I do not think any of us like the "let the budget do the talking" way that Obama seems to be leaning.  We shall see.
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Offline Analyst

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Re: DIRECT v3.0 - Thread 3
« Reply #2037 on: 01/20/2010 03:23 pm »
How did so many other launch vehicles in the past, including both EELVs, fly without dedicated test flights? Most even had real payloads, one had two humans too as payload.

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« Last Edit: 01/20/2010 03:24 pm by Analyst »

Offline Namechange User

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Re: DIRECT v3.0 - Thread 3
« Reply #2038 on: 01/20/2010 03:28 pm »
The "let the budget do the talking" does not make a whole lot of sense to me as you still have to publicly give a speech or press realese that defines what it is that you are funding you cannot just say: "Up 1 billion dollars for new direction, new HLV, Shuttle extension..ect.". That wouldn't make any sense to anyone except those in the know (general public would go: "Huh??") Based on this, someone will have to give a speech on this and if POTUS isn't going to do it it will probably be Bolden.

I agree but that is the impression Senator Bill Nelson (Fl) got from Obama, that he was not going to have a separate speech.  Nelson said that was "a mistake" and I agree.  Obama not Bolden will have to give us the direction and I do not think any of us like the "let the budget do the talking" way that Obama seems to be leaning.  We shall see.

The SOTU speech now needs to take a much more moderate tone as oppossed to the way the government has been run for the last year.  In order for Obama to succeed, he will need to work with the other side of the aisle, so his administration is going to need to become much more center-oriented as oppossed to leaning left. 

Because of that, you don't want NASA to become a political target where pundits, etc rip him for it and sway political perception of those who think we already get 10-15% of the federal budget. 

In my opinion, if it is quietly rolled out, Bolden announces it, Congress debates and authorizes it, it will go smoothly.  A big flashy speech is actually not required for engines to ignite.  Just a feasible policy with appropriate funding. 
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Offline sewand

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Re: DIRECT v3.0 - Thread 3
« Reply #2039 on: 01/20/2010 03:43 pm »
If the plan moving forward is to retain the basic goal of lunar exploration, then the switch from Ares 1/5 to "Jupiter" is not newsworthy enough to warrant mention in the SOTU.  And in all likelihood, not enough is known about flexible path yet to gauge if it is affordable.  There are probably too many unknowns at this point for Obama to spend his political capital. 

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