XCOR and the Lynx rocket

[savuporo]

It appears that their rocket engine development is paced to create highly reliable, inexpensive to operate, reusable integrated systems

That seems like a strong statement to make, given their lack of actually flying anything yet. What are you basing it on?

Uh, they are long known for flying vehicles like EZ-Rocket, and building systems for RRL rocket racers. They have demonstrated their engines in air and on ground for a long, long time now.

[ChrisWilson68]

It appears that their rocket engine development is paced to create highly reliable, inexpensive to operate, reusable integrated systems

That seems like a strong statement to make, given their lack of actually flying anything yet. What are you basing it on?

Uh, they are long known for flying vehicles like EZ-Rocket, and building systems for RRL rocket racers. They have demonstrated their engines in air and on ground for a long, long time now.

Sticking a small rocket motor on the back of a kit-built airplane isn't really experience with space launch.

[Lars_J]

It appears that their rocket engine development is paced to create highly reliable, inexpensive to operate, reusable integrated systems

That seems like a strong statement to make, given their lack of actually flying anything yet. What are you basing it on?

Uh, they are long known for flying vehicles like EZ-Rocket, and building systems for RRL rocket racers. They have demonstrated their engines in air and on ground for a long, long time now.

True, but has the Lynx flown? Has its engine flown on another aircraft?

What they are doing with Lynx is going to take a magniture (or more) effort than their previous modded vehicles.

I'm just adding a note of caution... People said the same about VG shortly after SS1.

[bad_astra]

It appears that their rocket engine development is paced to create highly reliable, inexpensive to operate, reusable integrated systems

That seems like a strong statement to make, given their lack of actually flying anything yet. What are you basing it on?

They have years of demonstrable experience with their rocket engines, whether they've been in space or not.

[savuporo]

True, but has the Lynx flown? Has its engine flown on another aircraft?

What they are doing with Lynx is going to take a magniture (or more) effort than their previous modded vehicles.

I'm just adding a note of caution... People said the same about VG shortly after SS1.

No Lynx has not flown,  and the engine has not flown either.

However the statement "they are not flying anything yet" is obviously not true.

They also have spent apparently a magnitude more time inching closer to Lynx program than they did with their last vehicles.

Sticking a small rocket motor on the back of a kit-built airplane isn't really experience with space launch.

XCOR is not building a space launch vehicle, nor is it building a vehicle that would reach space. Lynx Mk 1 is not designed to go to space. It is an incremental step up from what they were doing before.

[ChrisWilson68]

Sticking a small rocket motor on the back of a kit-built airplane isn't really experience with space launch.

XCOR is not building a space launch vehicle, nor is it building a vehicle that would reach space. Lynx Mk 1 is not designed to go to space. It is an incremental step up from what they were doing before.

Still on the XCOR web site, a press release from March 26, 2008 entitled "XCOR Aerospace Suborbital Vehicle to Fly Within Two Years -- New Vehicle called the Lynx":

http://xcor.com/press/2008/08-03-26_Lynx_suborbital_vehicle.html

More than six years later, they still haven't flown any version of Lynx.  They've taken money from lots of customers they've promised to fly into space, though.

[TrevorMonty]

Their long term goal is space flight but that require lots of $$$$. If they get the Lynx flying even once a day that is $35m annual revenue stream. All going well in few years they should be doing multiple flights a day from various locations.

[BrightLight]

Sticking a small rocket motor on the back of a kit-built airplane isn't really experience with space launch.

XCOR is not building a space launch vehicle, nor is it building a vehicle that would reach space. Lynx Mk 1 is not designed to go to space. It is an incremental step up from what they were doing before.

Still on the XCOR web site, a press release from March 26, 2008 entitled "XCOR Aerospace Suborbital Vehicle to Fly Within Two Years -- New Vehicle called the Lynx":

http://xcor.com/press/2008/08-03-26_Lynx_suborbital_vehicle.html

More than six years later, they still haven't flown any version of Lynx.  They've taken money from lots of customers they've promised to fly into space, though.

I believe they got multiple airplanes flying, I also believe that they got their rocket engines FAA certified (need source?) for racing.  Clearly, they underestimated the difficulties in getting the Lynx system to flight ready status - and they are not pushing the technology, they appear to be maturing as they go along.

[savuporo]

More than six years later, they still haven't flown any version of Lynx.  They've taken money from lots of customers they've promised to fly into space, though.

I am pretty sure they have not promised any customers to fly them to space, when they haven't ever announced any vehicle plans to reach space.
Also there is no question that they are taking things super slow - it has always been more a function of funding, hence all sorts of tangential development programs to keep the lights on.
"Customer flights two years from now" is a standard pretty dumb PR fare that these companies keep putting out, and XCOR is as guilty of this as any other outlet.

The subject raised here was

It appears that their rocket engine development is paced to create highly reliable, inexpensive to operate, reusable integrated systems

There is also absolutely no question that their rocket engine development so far has been creating highly reliable, inexpensive to operate and reusable systems. If they weren't inexpensive or reliable, the company would be defunct by now.

[ChrisWilson68]

More than six years later, they still haven't flown any version of Lynx.  They've taken money from lots of customers they've promised to fly into space, though.

I am pretty sure they have not promised any customers to fly them to space, when they haven't ever announced any vehicle plans to reach space.

Haven't announced any vehicle plans to reach space?  Did you read the press release I linked to in the post you're replying to?  They absolutely announced "vehicle plans to reach space".  From the press release: "XCOR Aerospace, of Mojave, CA, announced that its two-seat Lynx suborbital spaceship will carry people or payloads to where they will experience weightlessness and see the stars above and the Earth and its atmosphere below" and "The Lynx will offer affordable access to space for individuals, researchers and educators" and "The spaceship, roughly the size of a small private airplane, will first take off in 2010 and will be capable of flying several times each day."

How could anyone possibly be more clear that they're announcing "vehicle plans to reach space"?

As to whether they've promised customers to fly them to space, this press article says "Rides also are being sold on the Lynx for $95,000 each and will allow the company to take part in the space tourism industry. About 175 already have been purchased."

http://www.mrt.com/editors_picks/article_4345625e-c892-11e1-a3d2-001a4bcf887a.html

Also there is no question that they are taking things super slow - it has always been more a function of funding, hence all sorts of tangential development programs to keep the lights on.
"Customer flights two years from now" is a standard pretty dumb PR fare that these companies keep putting out, and XCOR is as guilty of this as any other outlet.

The subject raised here was

It appears that their rocket engine development is paced to create highly reliable, inexpensive to operate, reusable integrated systems

There is also absolutely no question that their rocket engine development so far has been creating highly reliable, inexpensive to operate and reusable systems. If they weren't inexpensive or reliable, the company would be defunct by now.

The rocket engines you're talking about are the little ones they mount on the back of kit planes.  Those are so small XCOR would have to be completely incompetent for them not to be reliable and inexpensive.  That's no evidence at all they can do large engines, let alone whole vehicles, more reliably or cheaply than the other companies doing them.

[ChrisWilson68]

More than six years later, they still haven't flown any version of Lynx.  They've taken money from lots of customers they've promised to fly into space, though.

I am pretty sure they have not promised any customers to fly them to space, when they haven't ever announced any vehicle plans to reach space.

How could anyone possibly be more clear that they're announcing "vehicle plans to reach space"?

As to whether they've promised customers to fly them to space, this press article says "Rides also are being sold on the Lynx for $95,000 each and will allow the company to take part in the space tourism industry. About 175 already have been purchased."

http://www.mrt.com/editors_picks/article_4345625e-c892-11e1-a3d2-001a4bcf887a.html

See also the page on their web site that is entitled "Purchase a Ticket to Space Aboard The Lynx".  This is where they actively solicit people to pay them to go to space on Lynx.

http://xcor.com/flytospace/

[savuporo]

Haven't announced any vehicle plans to reach space?  Did you read the press release I linked to in the post you're replying to?  They absolutely announced "vehicle plans to reach space".  ..

Yeah i have and yes i know, since these announcements were made - they have been derided by many, including up in this thread and by myself, for this. PR BS and hype, and its dumb.
But at the same time have always said that even though their first Lynx vehicle will enter "commercial service" it will not go higher than 60 km or so, which is not space - and any even slightly informed observer knows that, and you can be sure any customer that has given them money, does, too.

Their engines ( of any size that they have built ) have proven reliable, and their previous rocket powered airplanes proved reliable and inexpensive, too. They are currently building yet another rocket powered airplane that is designed to go higher and faster than their previous rocket powered airplanes, "spaceship" marketing labels notwithstanding.

The statement "their rocket engine development is paced to create highly reliable, inexpensive to operate, reusable integrated systems" has a pretty solid basis.

[ChrisWilson68]

Haven't announced any vehicle plans to reach space?  Did you read the press release I linked to in the post you're replying to?  They absolutely announced "vehicle plans to reach space".  ..

Yeah i have and yes i know, since these announcements were made - they have been derided by many, including up in this thread and by myself, for this. PR BS and hype, and its dumb.
But at the same time have always said that even though their first Lynx vehicle will enter "commercial service" it will not go higher than 60 km or so, which is not space - and any even slightly informed observer knows that, and you can be sure any customer that has given them money, does, too.

First, you say they never claimed to be working on vehicles to go to space.  Then, when I point out that they did claim that, you say nobody should be dumb enough to actually believe them.

How exactly do you think that helps your case?

Their engines ( of any size that they have built ) have proven reliable, and their previous rocket powered airplanes proved reliable and inexpensive, too. They are currently building yet another rocket powered airplane that is designed to go higher and faster than their previous rocket powered airplanes, "spaceship" marketing labels notwithstanding.

The statement "their rocket engine development is paced to create highly reliable, inexpensive to operate, reusable integrated systems" has a pretty solid basis.

Their previous rocket powered airplane was a kit plane that they didn't design.  They just took an off-the-shelf design and added a small rocket motor.

I see nothing in either their history of broken promises or underwhelming small-scale rocketry that gives a "solid basis" for believing they will make a cheaper or more reliable system for access to suborbital space than anyone else.

[QuantumG]

I see nothing in either their history of broken promises or underwhelming small-scale rocketry that gives a "solid basis" for believing they will make a cheaper or more reliable system for access to suborbital space than anyone else.

I'm still waiting for you to post a single "promise" that has been broken. I know you won't find one, because Jeff doesn't make promises. In fact, when he talks to the media he says things like "we expect and hope, which is not the same as a promise, ...", and frankly, I think I'm safe in saying that they don't really care what you believe.

[A_M_Swallow]

How is the life support system going?  The passengers and crew need oxygen at 60 km up.

[savuporo]

First, you say they never claimed to be working on vehicles to go to space.  Then, when I point out that they did claim that, you say nobody should be dumb enough to actually believe them.

How exactly do you think that helps your case?

I am an engineer, i read past the marketing BS, and i made it clear that i dislike the marketing BS and hyperbole, regardless of who puts it out.
Again, XCOR has always said their first Lynx version will not reach space - regardless of how many times the word "space" shows up in their PR.

Their "underwhelming small-scale rocketry" appears to be enough to score a cool $14M in series B funding which presumably puts their valuation somewhere north of $40M or so. Not a lot for all the years worth of sweat and determination, but well deserved.

By the way, i bought a computer part in about 1998 that was said to be "worlds fastest graphics card". I'm really starting to hate its decade long broken promises now.

[Robotbeat]

XCOR's Lynx has a better operational model than SS1 in the long term. And except for way back in 2008, XCOR has been very consistent about saying "it'll be ready when it's ready." Better than most companies, definitely.

ChrisWilson, what problem do you have with XCOR, again?

[Lars_J]

I shouldn't speak for him, but I don't think he has a problem - we are just reacting to the hyperbola of the statement that XCOR's "rocket engine development is paced to create highly reliable, inexpensive to operate, reusable integrated systems" when neither the A) engine nor B) the integrated system (LYNX) has flown yet.

Again, it may be proven true eventually, but given the history of the "newSpace" industry in the last decade, it seems presumptuous at this point.

[savuporo]

..hyperbola of the statement that XCOR's "rocket engine development is paced to create highly reliable, inexpensive to operate, reusable integrated systems" when neither the A) engine nor B) the integrated system (LYNX) has flown yet.

And neither XCOR, nor the original poster connected that statement to spaceflight, space launch vehicles, Lynx or the engine that is designed for Lynx. Hyperbole in this case is entirely modulated in by uninformed observers.

[Lars_J]

And neither XCOR, nor the original poster connected that statement to spaceflight, space launch vehicles, Lynx or the engine that is designed for Lynx.

Really? Have you taken a look at the thread title recently? And I suggest you read the post that triggered my comment, for context:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=19033.msg1205362#msg1205362
Yeah, one might reasonably assume that he/she is dicussing Lynx here, since Lynx is mentioned in the same sentence that I pulled the quote from.

Hyperbole in this case is entirely modulated in by uninformed observers.

Someone is getting a wee bit touchy about having their opinion challenged this morning/evening.