JulesVerneATV - 18/3/2006 1:27 PMPresident Bush has further expanded these commitments to defending outsourcing and pledging to build closer ties in space exploration, satellite navigation and launch.
MartianBase - 19/3/2006 1:33 AMI know many find the idea of outsourcing space exploration completely ludacris. The problem I have with the private sector from within the USA or Canada is that corporations and conglomerates are rarely loyal to their workers or country, once profits drop or people get hurt in accidents they will cut and run away. Sure those companies start out great but they are only concerned about stocks and profits ( Ford job cuts, Walmart employment practices and ethics, Worldcom fiasco, Enron scandal...) There have been some nice ideas from the private sector Canadian Arrow, Spaceshipone, DaVinci Canada, Virgin Galactic but we must be careful with all over-rated press they get. SpaceX and those Musk Falcon rockets look nice but there is much over-rated hype and it is an awfully big leap from the dinky Falcon-I to a heavy-Medium class vehicle. Falcon creates yet another way to get into space, without creating any true purpose for going and will they be ever able to match Russian labor costs ? If the Falcon's get very lucky they might one-day be able to lift medium-heavy payloads similar to the Titan-Centaur or the Russian Proton but they will never be able to build a Saturn-V or Energia that will take us to the Red-Planet and back. The Falcon-1 still hasn't lifted anything and will have a lot of difficulty lifting a 750 kg payload into a meaningful orbit. As for outsourcing to India - this is completely stupid, we are giving away expertise, throwing away jobs and giving them free technology. You'd think the USA was up for sale as Bush starts outsourcing the USA's aviation routes and America's shipping ports to the Arab world. All of this 'Outsourcing' has now hit home, it has been going on for many administrations and it doesn't matter which whitehouse admin started it - what does matter is which adminstration stops it. I know sometimes NASA can't afford to do everything so they are forced to to joint missions with other nations, however I think a partnership with India could be totally worthless. India has at many times been very selfish and greedy ( worse than French ) and India have only cared about their own, they have little to offer NASA and India was also on the wrong side during the cold war buying up Soviet missiles and MIGs so they could destroy the American made planes. If we outsource exploration to India then we should outsource to everyone else with a launch-pad or ballistic missile such as Iran, South Africa, Pakistan, and North-Korea.
Avron - 19/3/2006 10:01 AMI am so with you i.r.t. outsourcing... why bother to have a govenment... in time all that will be left in North America will be accountants and legal people, and a huge group of people in politics.. This whole outsourcing is a disgrace, the people are not protected for greed.. In time it will all backfire. I am all for helping others out but start at home first... this is nothing more that dumping and that in world trade is not on, so why is outsourcing? IT has to be stopped right now or should we all wait for the day when your work is outsourced?
publiusr - 23/3/2006 2:15 PMI am very ashamed of my country and its priorities.
Avron - 19/3/2006 9:48 AMQuoteMartianBase - 19/3/2006 1:33 AMI know many find the idea of outsourcing space exploration completely ludacris. The problem I have with the private sector from within the USA or Canada is that corporations and conglomerates are rarely loyal to their workers or country, once profits drop or people get hurt in accidents they will cut and run away. Sure those companies start out great but they are only concerned about stocks and profits ( Ford job cuts, Walmart employment practices and ethics, Worldcom fiasco, Enron scandal...) There have been some nice ideas from the private sector Canadian Arrow, Spaceshipone, DaVinci Canada, Virgin Galactic but we must be careful with all over-rated press they get. SpaceX and those Musk Falcon rockets look nice but there is much over-rated hype and it is an awfully big leap from the dinky Falcon-I to a heavy-Medium class vehicle. Falcon creates yet another way to get into space, without creating any true purpose for going and will they be ever able to match Russian labor costs ? If the Falcon's get very lucky they might one-day be able to lift medium-heavy payloads similar to the Titan-Centaur or the Russian Proton but they will never be able to build a Saturn-V or Energia that will take us to the Red-Planet and back. The Falcon-1 still hasn't lifted anything and will have a lot of difficulty lifting a 750 kg payload into a meaningful orbit. As for outsourcing to India - this is completely stupid, we are giving away expertise, throwing away jobs and giving them free technology. You'd think the USA was up for sale as Bush starts outsourcing the USA's aviation routes and America's shipping ports to the Arab world. All of this 'Outsourcing' has now hit home, it has been going on for many administrations and it doesn't matter which whitehouse admin started it - what does matter is which adminstration stops it. I know sometimes NASA can't afford to do everything so they are forced to to joint missions with other nations, however I think a partnership with India could be totally worthless. India has at many times been very selfish and greedy ( worse than French ) and India have only cared about their own, they have little to offer NASA and India was also on the wrong side during the cold war buying up Soviet missiles and MIGs so they could destroy the American made planes. If we outsource exploration to India then we should outsource to everyone else with a launch-pad or ballistic missile such as Iran, South Africa, Pakistan, and North-Korea.I am so with you i.r.t. outsourcing... why bother to have a govenment... in time all that will be left in North America will be accountants and legal people, and a huge group of people in politics.. This whole outsourcing is a disgrace, the people are not protected for greed.. In time it will all backfire. I am all for helping others out but start at home first... this is nothing more that dumping and that in world trade is not on, so why is outsourcing? IT has to be stopped right now or should we all wait for the day when your work is outsourced?
josh_simonson - 8/9/2006 11:24 PMDon't be ashamed of the government, be ashamed of the parents. They raise their kids to be idiots and tell them it's okay to major in tie-dying if it makes them happy. I tell mine to do something hard and once they're used to it it'll seem easy, but they'll get paid in the top 5% for it.In graduate school I got a free ride + $1300/month to do engineering, so few US citizens go that route that it's easy to get help. Actually, I think the public universities should vary their tuition based on the major such that the number of students coming out of each major is about what that job market can handle. Engineering should be free (we pay 10x in taxes what english majors do) and psychology should cost about 100k/year. They had about 1/3 the graduate salary of EE guys in my undergrad. 8^(
lmike - 10/9/2006 2:54 AMChina? Nah. They've been producing engineers for over 20 years now (even per capita) in much larger quantities than the US. Their output is close to nil. Mostly they do copying and reverse engineering. And I admit that also takes mental stamina. Confucius-ism dosn't provide much for independent thinking or inventiveness.
dbhyslop - 9/9/2006 12:03 AMThe American century is over and its too late to do anything about it. This new one is for China.Dan
MartianBase - 10/9/2006 12:22 PMQuotelmike - 10/9/2006 2:54 AMChina? Nah. They've been producing engineers for over 20 years now (even per capita) in much larger quantities than the US. Their output is close to nil. Mostly they do copying and reverse engineering. And I admit that also takes mental stamina. Confucius-ism dosn't provide much for independent thinking or inventiveness. I know things work better in the USA but you should tell that speech to Japan who invented squat in the past century, they only thing they've really been doing for the past 100 years was to mimic and ignore copyright law of US comapnies and European creations. Confucian ideology and totalitarianism is very much alive in a single part state like Japan where the Jiminto (LDP) have been in power for decades. After WW2 Japan built up its economy by copying US products like tv sets or European radios and then mass producing them in bulk, they've made infringements on software and even ignore FBI investigations on Japanese who have been stealing US medical research. The Japanese built up an economy worth $4.9 trillion even though the country is only about the size of Arizona or Montana, just wait until China builds up its economy half as quick as the Japanese did.
wannamoonbase - 10/9/2006 1:57 PM...Involving other countries may encourage them to develop their own capabilities but they won't be getting things like guidance systems or gyros. And its not like the US is the only source of technology in the world. The US has 300 million people out of 6.5 billion, so its safe to say there are few smart people out there somewhere....
The US has always attracted the best educated people from around the world because of its a far better place to live than almost everywhere and have great opportunities and possibilities.The one aspect that isn't talked about in the media, and that so many anti-trade people don't understand or ignore, is that by trading and being open with countries like China, India and Russia promotes and encourages them to be move open and eventually democratic, just like the US and other western countries. If you don't believe me take a look at how Eastern Europe, India, China and Russia are coming along (although at different rates.) Eventually China is going to make the flip from communism to democracy and then they will cease to be a military threat, and then think of how great payoff will be to the rest of the world.Sharing and cooperating creates a more integrated world that will have less major conflicts. Its a good thing, but there will be bumps and adjustments along the way and that is what we are experiencing now.
> Its sounds like an extreme solution, but I say that agreeing 100% about what the problem is.
Actually, having different majors cost different amounts based on demand is the capitalist system at work. If there's a high demand for a major, but a low supply of jobs, it should be expensive, and if there's a low demand for a major and a high supply of jobs, it should be cheap.
josh_simonson - 8/9/2006 11:24 PMDon't be ashamed of the government, be ashamed of the parents. They raise their kids to be idiots and tell them it's okay to major in tie-dying if it makes them happy. I tell mine to do something hard and once they're used to it it'll seem easy, but they'll get paid in the top 5% for it.In graduate school I got a free ride + $1300/month to do engineering, so few US citizens go that route that it's easy to get help.
JulesVerneATV - 8/9/2006 5:10 PMThe Falcon rocket was no good, the latest claim by Musk was $8 million for a trip to the Red Planet but many thought he was all hype and just trying to make an extra impression at the Mars-society conference ??
josh_simonson - 18/9/2006 1:08 AMYou should check out the bay area then, but with decent houses around $800k that takes alot of lustre out of a 6 digit salary...
josh_simonson - 18/9/2006 1:04 AMYou should check out the bay area then, but with decent houses around $800k that takes alot of lustre out of a 6 digit salary...
bad_astra - 11/9/2006 11:43 AMOutsourcing the VSE or any other government aerospace program is ludicrous. This is one of the last industries we have an edge in and crucial to our continuance as an actual nation state, as opposed to a corporate oligarchy.
braddock - 18/3/2006 10:06 PMQuoteJulesVerneATV - 18/3/2006 1:27 PMPresident Bush has further expanded these commitments to defending outsourcing and pledging to build closer ties in space exploration, satellite navigation and launch.Remember that Bush has been courting India the past few months, particularly the folks in their military missile and nuclear programs, in an effort to convince them to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty (in whatever watered-down form). But talk is cheap, now that the NPT deed is almost done. And I'm not sure there has been a president in 30 years who didn't defend free-trade and "outsourcing" as their established economic policy.
vt_hokie - 29/9/2006 2:12 AMAn interview I just came across:Conversation with a Policy Maker: Norm Augustine Comments on the Impact of ‘Rising Above the Gathering Storm’
lmike - 9/9/2006 11:50 PMQuoteIf you don't believe me take a look at how Eastern Europe, India, China and Russia are coming along (although at different rates.) Eventually China is going to make the flip from communism to democracy and then they will cease to be a military threat, and then think of how great payoff will be to the rest of the world.Sharing and cooperating creates a more integrated world that will have less major conflicts. Its a good thing, but there will be bumps and adjustments along the way and that is what we are experiencing now.The first paragraph is good. The rest is "Kimbaya". Thinking that democracy (the US is a republic btw) is a natural state of affairs and "all we have to do is trade" will fix things is naive.
If you don't believe me take a look at how Eastern Europe, India, China and Russia are coming along (although at different rates.) Eventually China is going to make the flip from communism to democracy and then they will cease to be a military threat, and then think of how great payoff will be to the rest of the world.Sharing and cooperating creates a more integrated world that will have less major conflicts. Its a good thing, but there will be bumps and adjustments along the way and that is what we are experiencing now.
