Author Topic: Rifle ballistics in LEO  (Read 35981 times)

Offline Danny Dot

  • Rocket Scientist, NOT Retired
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2792
  • Houston, Texas
  • Liked: 17
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Rifle ballistics in LEO
« Reply #40 on: 07/01/2009 07:21 pm »
You're saying you know there's not a single THEL up there?  We have no ability to destroy sats and neither does anyone else?  I find that very difficult to believe.  I can imagine that "hunter-killers" are obsolete once you can shoot far with say, an asat missle off a frigate or a THEL in orbit.  Since we know where everything is, there's no need to "hunt."  You just shoot.  But if asats don't exist, it can only be because a more viable technology has replaced the notion.

Can you say what use HEO is to classified tech?

If Jim was completely briefed in on all classified missions, he certainly shouldn't be saying on a public site he knows there's not a certain capability.

Danny Deger
Danny Deger

Offline GI-Thruster

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 732
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Rifle ballistics in LEO
« Reply #41 on: 07/01/2009 07:28 pm »
Em. . .yeah.  Sorry, Jim.  I shouldn't ask.  :-)

Maybe a question for others though.

Is it possible a THEL in LEO would be able to target and hit a sat in GEO?  That just sounds like such a long shot it's hard to believe possible.

Offline mike robel

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2251
  • Merritt Island, FL
  • Liked: 316
  • Likes Given: 156
Re: Rifle ballistics in LEO
« Reply #42 on: 07/01/2009 07:38 pm »
Navy Cruisers/Destroyers with proper software and missiles can shoot down satellites.  Already demonstrated.

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35970
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 18360
  • Likes Given: 397
Re: Rifle ballistics in LEO
« Reply #43 on: 07/01/2009 07:38 pm »
1.  You're saying you know there's not a single THEL up there?

2.   We have no ability to destroy sats and neither does anyone else?  I find that very difficult to believe.  I can imagine that "hunter-killers" are obsolete once you can shoot far with say, an asat missle off a frigate or a THEL in orbit.  Since we know where everything is, there's no need to "hunt."  You just shoot.

3.   But if asats don't exist, it can only be because a more viable technology has replaced the notion.

1.  Can answer that with this, what would be the energy source?

2.  Russia can't afford maintaining all their satellite constellations much less maintaining an ASAT capability.  The US dropped its capability with the F-15 ASAT decades ago and had to throw together the frigate ASAT.   The chinese just demonstrated one.

3, No, there hasn't been the need.  USSR isn't there anymore and not as much as a threat (see number 2).  There was more important things to spend money on.  Also there is congress.  Only since China has appeared, there might be a need but it still is a low priority.


The space spook world is not all that spooky.  A launch can not go on unnoticed.  There are signatures for the launch and the spacecraft on orbit.

Offline William Barton

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3487
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Rifle ballistics in LEO
« Reply #44 on: 07/01/2009 07:47 pm »
Just a quick question for the orbital mechanics guys:

I have it on good authority we have classified stuff in HEO.  I just have never understood why.  Given it takes as much energy to go down as it does to go up, what use is HEO?

Unless. . .unless these are classified hunter-killers in highly elliptical orbits?  If their orbit ran below GSO or even LEO, then it would cross those orbits at very high speed and have opportunities for what are essentially strafing runs.  And here's the real question: what's the delta V necessary to modify such an orbit?  Perhaps you could adjust the orbit relatively easily that such a hunter-killer could approach anything in GSO or Leo given enough time?

The old Vela satellites were in HEO (higher than GEO, anyway).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vela_(satellite)


Offline gospacex

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3024
  • Liked: 543
  • Likes Given: 604
Re: Rifle ballistics in LEO
« Reply #46 on: 07/01/2009 08:06 pm »
It is "trivial".  Protecting against it is very hard.  I am so glad Sadam never thought of this idea.  It would have been very effective.

Saddam _did_ think of this idea.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/other/laser.htm

Offline gospacex

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3024
  • Liked: 543
  • Likes Given: 604
Re: Rifle ballistics in LEO
« Reply #47 on: 07/01/2009 08:12 pm »
I think guided missiles launched from a satellite may be better at taking out other sats. The dV and range will be better, plus the technology need not be developer from zero - it will be an adaptation of existing PAC-3 / THAAD.

Offline GI-Thruster

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 732
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Rifle ballistics in LEO
« Reply #48 on: 07/01/2009 08:16 pm »
"Can answer that with this, what would be the energy source?" [for a THEL on orbit]

THEL's are traditionally chemical and as such are very heavy, but it's easy to imagine a system fitting on a Delta IV or Atlas V that would be capable of several shots.  If what you want is the ability to disrupt military communications, certainly a THEL has the power to do so if indeed it can target over such long distances.

In the future, I think it's a no-brainer to use PV arrays and large EEStor type caps storage with solid state lasers.  Can't fire as quickly but then again, if you're in LEO shooting at GEO, you have time between shots anyway.  If the Blacklight Power reactors work at all, they'd be better than PV arrays because you can then go stealth which is certainly the best way to survive a conflict in space.

BTW, I don't think the Chinese have the ability to shoot ASAT missiles to GEO.  The stuff is too high but I believe that "test" we did last year off the frigate was to GEO, was it not?

Offline Danny Dot

  • Rocket Scientist, NOT Retired
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2792
  • Houston, Texas
  • Liked: 17
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Rifle ballistics in LEO
« Reply #49 on: 07/01/2009 08:27 pm »
It is "trivial".  Protecting against it is very hard.  I am so glad Sadam never thought of this idea.  It would have been very effective.

Saddam _did_ think of this idea.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/other/laser.htm

Thanks for the link.  Glad he didn't think of the ideas we were looking into.  It would have been much, much worse that pointing a laser range finder at someone. 

That is all I am going to say.  I really don't want some of the stuff we were looking at do go public.  Implementing our evil ideas is way, way to easy. 

Danny Deger
Danny Deger

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35970
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 18360
  • Likes Given: 397
Re: Rifle ballistics in LEO
« Reply #50 on: 07/01/2009 08:33 pm »

1.  THEL's are traditionally chemical and as such are very heavy, but it's easy to imagine a system fitting on a Delta IV or Atlas V that would be capable of several shots.

2.  In the future, I think it's a no-brainer to use PV arrays and large EEStor type caps storage with solid state lasers. 

1.  There haven't been any heavy or big Delta IV or Atlas V missions.

2.  Which you would be able to see with a naked eye due to the size of the arrays much like ISS.  No one has seen such a vehicle.

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35970
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 18360
  • Likes Given: 397
Re: Rifle ballistics in LEO
« Reply #51 on: 07/01/2009 08:35 pm »
.

BTW, I don't think the Chinese have the ability to shoot ASAT missiles to GEO.  The stuff is too high but I believe that "test" we did last year off the frigate was to GEO, was it not?

Very low LEO.  There has been no GEO ASAT capability by anyone.

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35970
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 18360
  • Likes Given: 397
Re: Rifle ballistics in LEO
« Reply #52 on: 07/01/2009 08:36 pm »

THEL's are traditionally chemical and as such are very heavy,

THEL hasn't made it to the battlefield and ABL is still months/years away.  ABL needs a whole 747.

Offline gospacex

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3024
  • Liked: 543
  • Likes Given: 604
Re: Rifle ballistics in LEO
« Reply #53 on: 07/01/2009 08:42 pm »
BTW, I don't think the Chinese have the ability to shoot ASAT missiles to GEO.  The stuff is too high but I believe that "test" we did last year off the frigate was to GEO, was it not?

Chinese test was at higher altitude than US (800 vs 200 km IIRC), both were in LEO.

Offline GI-Thruster

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 732
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Rifle ballistics in LEO
« Reply #54 on: 07/01/2009 09:02 pm »
It is "trivial".  Protecting against it is very hard.  I am so glad Sadam never thought of this idea.  It would have been very effective.

Saddam _did_ think of this idea.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/other/laser.htm

Thanks for the link.  Glad he didn't think of the ideas we were looking into.  It would have been much, much worse that pointing a laser range finder at someone. 

That is all I am going to say.  I really don't want some of the stuff we were looking at do go public.  Implementing our evil ideas is way, way to easy. 

Danny Deger

Danny, this stuff was in Life magazine in the early 1990's.  I put it in a paper on philosophy of technology around 1993 or so, along with microwave weapons, human motion enhancement,  anti-aging tech and some other then cutting-edge stuff.  Nothing new here except that now, we really can turn a human into a greasy spot on the ground with our evil death rays whereas that was just a dream 15 years ago.

Offline GI-Thruster

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 732
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Rifle ballistics in LEO
« Reply #55 on: 07/01/2009 09:30 pm »

THEL's are traditionally chemical and as such are very heavy,

THEL hasn't made it to the battlefield and ABL is still months/years away.  ABL needs a whole 747.

150 kW is enough to protect our sats from attack in orbit, especially if the HALLADS is in orbit.  Question is still whether these systems can target and strike spacecraft 36,000 km away or further:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Energy_Liquid_Laser_Area_Defense_System

"Phase 4 of the program, involving outdoor testing of a weapon-power laser against tactical targets,is planned in 2010. The more powerful version will produce a 150-kW beam capable of knocking down missiles with the weight and size requirements for fitting onto fighter aircraft or a Humvee. In mid 2008, Janes Defence Review quoted the US Military that the program is on schedule to meet this ground test."

These are solid state--no chemicals--that's why they're so small for what they can do.  A 50 kW BLP reactor is the size of a basketball so the power systems for this could, in that case be very small and hard to see.


Offline Danny Dot

  • Rocket Scientist, NOT Retired
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2792
  • Houston, Texas
  • Liked: 17
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Rifle ballistics in LEO
« Reply #57 on: 07/01/2009 11:54 pm »
snip

Danny, this stuff was in Life magazine in the early 1990's.  I put it in a paper on philosophy of technology around 1993 or so, along with microwave weapons, human motion enhancement,  anti-aging tech and some other then cutting-edge stuff.  Nothing new here except that now, we really can turn a human into a greasy spot on the ground with our evil death rays whereas that was just a dream 15 years ago.

I did my work in about 1986.  I am sure lasers are better and cheaper.

Danny Deger
Danny Deger

Offline yinzer

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1509
  • Liked: 3
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Rifle ballistics in LEO
« Reply #58 on: 07/02/2009 12:23 am »
.

BTW, I don't think the Chinese have the ability to shoot ASAT missiles to GEO.  The stuff is too high but I believe that "test" we did last year off the frigate was to GEO, was it not?

Very low LEO.  There has been no GEO ASAT capability by anyone.

It is strongly suspected although unproven that the MiTEx satellites have the capability for on-orbit satellite inspection in GEO.  When DSP-23 died, amateurs tracked them moving through GEO to rendezvous with it.  XSS-11 already demonstrated proximity tracking and maneuvering of uncooperative targets.

We don't know if the MITEX birds have an ASAT capability.  They might not have one, beyond stuff like ramming into a deployed solar panel.  But if you can rendezvous and stationkeep with a satellite, killing it is easy by comparison.

Some speculate that the PAN mission has an operational GEO inspection payload, although there's really no evidence.

Regardless, anyone with the money to put something in GEO now has to consider the strong possibility that the US can interfere with their capability.  We already had the capability to bomb their ground stations, and may have had the capability to hijack their uplinks and play games with the satellites, but it's not the same thing.

Oh, and HEO is a crappy place to put an ASAT.  But it's a good place to put something that wants to look at large parts of the earth and/or high latitudes.  Thus one would expect classified HEO satellites to include communication relays, SIGINT, and maybe optical/IR observation.
California 2008 - taking rights from people and giving rights to chickens.

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35970
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 18360
  • Likes Given: 397
Re: Rifle ballistics in LEO
« Reply #59 on: 07/02/2009 12:30 am »


1.  150 kW is enough to protect our sats from attack in orbit,
2.  especially if the HALLADS is in orbit.
3.  A 50 kW BLP reactor is the size of a basketball

1.  That is 25% more than the ISS produces

2. It is nowhere close to being fielded.

3.  when will that be available?
« Last Edit: 07/02/2009 12:30 am by Jim »

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement SkyTale Software GmbH
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0