Author Topic: French Hermes Spaceplane  (Read 20645 times)

Offline kch

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Re: French Hermes Spaceplane
« Reply #20 on: 04/14/2009 08:27 AM »
Quote
Imagine what Shuttle would have looked like if the SSME's were mounted on the bottom of the External Tank. It probably would have weighed half as much and taken one quarter of the time to process between flights.
With exactly the same on-orbit capabilities and probably more payload!

Buran ?

Essentially -- "Buran with solid boosters".

Offline Spacenick

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Re: French Hermes Spaceplane
« Reply #21 on: 04/14/2009 09:48 AM »
In my opinion a good space plane doesn't carry much of a payload at all unless it's something like Skylon it should be in the mass range of Apollo/Orion and carry only people to LEO.
It would be build with a lifting body design and be capable of lunar return, while it shouldn't have enough delta-v to do the burn itself. Instead it would utilise a tug for major orbital changes.
Much along the lines of klipper.
Why carry a plane up in space when what you want to carry is a station module. Just carry the station module and tug it where you need it.
Only use a space plane when the space plane itself is the payload. Much like a reusbale Soyuz it's only purpose is to take people through the atmosphere and make the heat shield reusbale.

Offline madscientist197

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Re: French Hermes Spaceplane
« Reply #22 on: 04/14/2009 10:30 AM »
Buran ?

Essentially -- "Buran with solid boosters".

And we would only need an upper stage to go to the moon. Damn :(
« Last Edit: 04/14/2009 10:31 AM by madscientist197 »
John

Offline woods170

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Re: French Hermes Spaceplane
« Reply #23 on: 04/14/2009 01:59 PM »
And a couple of nice artist impressions...

Offline kkattula

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Re: French Hermes Spaceplane
« Reply #24 on: 04/15/2009 09:08 AM »
In my opinion a good space plane doesn't carry much of a payload at all unless it's something like Skylon it should be in the mass range of Apollo/Orion and carry only people to LEO.
It would be build with a lifting body design and be capable of lunar return, while it shouldn't have enough delta-v to do the burn itself. Instead it would utilise a tug for major orbital changes.
Much along the lines of klipper.
Why carry a plane up in space when what you want to carry is a station module. Just carry the station module and tug it where you need it.
Only use a space plane when the space plane itself is the payload. Much like a reusbale Soyuz it's only purpose is to take people through the atmosphere and make the heat shield reusbale.

I agree with this sentiment, although perhaps the space plane should only be for people transport to & from LEO. Going beyond LEO is a job for a dedicated space tug & transhab.

Any large payload should be separately launched or in a disposable mission module.

Offline kkattula

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Re: French Hermes Spaceplane
« Reply #25 on: 04/15/2009 09:22 AM »
Quote
Imagine what Shuttle would have looked like if the SSME's were mounted on the bottom of the External Tank. It probably would have weighed half as much and taken one quarter of the time to process between flights.
With exactly the same on-orbit capabilities and probably more payload!

Buran ?

Essentially -- "Buran with solid boosters".

Interesting to note that Russian spacecraft generally have lower payload fractions than their US counterparts, due to higher structual margins, and less exotic materials.

Yet Buran had higher payload than Shuttle originially did, at less gross mass. Plus better, less toxic OMS. 

I bet it cost a lot less too. How much was 20 billion roubles in US$ in the 80's?  $1 billion?

Offline Archibald

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Re: French Hermes Spaceplane
« Reply #26 on: 04/15/2009 06:59 PM »
A currency convertor http://www.xe.com/ucc/

Inflation calculator http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

Article translated and send to the webmaster. Wait and see...
...you have been found guilty by the elders of the forum of a (imaginary) vendetta against Saint Elon - BLAAASPHEMER !

Offline vt_hokie

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Re: French Hermes Spaceplane
« Reply #27 on: 04/15/2009 07:12 PM »
Always thought this was an interesting approach, if somewhat disconcerting with those tanks there!

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/staipper.htm

Offline Jorge

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Re: French Hermes Spaceplane
« Reply #28 on: 04/15/2009 07:15 PM »

I bet it cost a lot less too. How much was 20 billion roubles in US$ in the 80's?  $1 billion?

Nope, back in the Soviet era the ruble was artificially maintained at greater than $1 per ruble.
JRF

Offline Patchouli

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Re: French Hermes Spaceplane
« Reply #29 on: 04/15/2009 07:35 PM »
In my opinion a good space plane doesn't carry much of a payload at all unless it's something like Skylon it should be in the mass range of Apollo/Orion and carry only people to LEO.
It would be build with a lifting body design and be capable of lunar return, while it shouldn't have enough delta-v to do the burn itself. Instead it would utilise a tug for major orbital changes.
Much along the lines of klipper.
Why carry a plane up in space when what you want to carry is a station module. Just carry the station module and tug it where you need it.
Only use a space plane when the space plane itself is the payload. Much like a reusbale Soyuz it's only purpose is to take people through the atmosphere and make the heat shield reusbale.

Yah a station module can just have a basic attitude control system on it and then have something like Cygnus or the SS/L 1300 series tug grab it and take it where you want it.
The original ESAS CEV also probably could have perform this task if needed.

BTW Kliper was just that a reusable super Soyuz.
RSC felt that gliding back would make recovery easier and the low g reentry would allow them to fly tourists they had to turn away on Soyuz.
Plus they wanted to be able to return cargo items up to 500kg.
« Last Edit: 04/15/2009 07:36 PM by Patchouli »

Offline Herb Schaltegger

Re: French Hermes Spaceplane
« Reply #30 on: 04/15/2009 07:40 PM »
Yah a station module can just have a basic attitude control system on it and then have something like Cygnus or the SS/L 1300 series tug grab it and take it where you want it.

Too bad neither a "basic attitude control system" exists to just bolt onto things.  Of course, neither a "Cygnus" nor any kind of tug exists either.

You are one starry-eyed dreamer, aren't you?
Ad astra per aspirin ...

Offline Patchouli

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Re: French Hermes Spaceplane
« Reply #31 on: 04/15/2009 07:47 PM »
Yah a station module can just have a basic attitude control system on it and then have something like Cygnus or the SS/L 1300 series tug grab it and take it where you want it.

Too bad neither a "basic attitude control system" exists to just bolt onto things.  Of course, neither a "Cygnus" nor any kind of tug exists either.

You are one starry-eyed dreamer, aren't you?

The Cygnus is under development right now and the SS/L 1300 series tug is nothing more then a modified 1300 series satellite bus.

Both can be available very quickly if needed and the basic concept could have even been done back in the 70s such as the Progress and TKS spacecraft.

As for designing a basic attitude control system this is not too difficult Bigelow had no trouble doing this.

A basic attitude control system can be mono prop or even cold gas it doesn't need much delta V.
Plus it should be light and compact so your station module doesn't suffer from the issues Russian modules have.
It probably can even be lifted from an existing satellite bus if needed.
« Last Edit: 04/15/2009 07:52 PM by Patchouli »

Offline Herb Schaltegger

Re: French Hermes Spaceplane
« Reply #32 on: 04/15/2009 09:05 PM »
You DO realize none of those have actually been demonstrated to do anything, right?  And that your generalities really belie any claim to understanding the issues, right?
Ad astra per aspirin ...

Offline Spacenick

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Re: French Hermes Spaceplane
« Reply #33 on: 04/15/2009 09:54 PM »
Well there are in fact tugs. when a Progress or an ATV docked to the ISS alters it's orbit it's exactly that, a tug. Then there was the progress service module transporting Pirs to the ISS, which was definitely a tugging operation though it didn't have the docking portion but that has been demostrated on many Progress flights.
There is also the TKS spacecraft raising a Salyut orbit.
And finally to name an American tug that did both do orbital maneuvers beyond the capability of the spacecraft being tugged and do docking as well.
The agena target vehicle can be sondiered a tug.


Another hint at the feasability of the tug concept is the fact that RKK Energia (with over 40 years of manned spacecraft development to be considered a serious space company) proposed Parom as a Progress replacement and didn't see any particular difficulties.
Concerning the non existance of a basic attitude control system to be bolted on, who said it would be bolted on instead of simply build into the module while being of very simple design?
What are the technical challenges of it? Is a Salyut/TKS based module that much more complicated then Kibo/Columbus or one of the American ISS modules with live support built in. Especially when condiering that one would reduce the delta-v of the resulting module to the minimum needed to represent a docking target.
It might not even need any atittude control system, instead it could also be roll stabilised and one would use a docking mechanism (of course one without a tunnel) that is roll agnostic. This docking mechanism would only provide power and a data connection to the module and the tug would carry it near the station where it is grapled by a robotic arm.
This would still present the need for a base module with a robotic arm and it's own propulsion system, but I can't see the difficulty in putting a robotic arm on an FGB.

In my humble opinion the biggest difficulty in designing docking mechanisms is that one has to incooperate a transfer tunnel, if that tunnel is scrapped designing docking mechanisms becomes much much easier.
It might consist of nothing more then to electric magnets and some radio for data. And a laser range meter then all you need is some controlling software to make it dock as soft as you want without any moving parts or even fine attitude thrusters.

It would be realy interesting to hear what issues you see that haven't been solved before in for the orbital tug idea or what you think the obstacles are.
« Last Edit: 04/15/2009 10:06 PM by Spacenick »

Offline Archibald

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Re: French Hermes Spaceplane
« Reply #34 on: 04/16/2009 08:03 AM »
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The agena target vehicle can be sondiered a tug.

In my own little alt-history, where the shuttle is canned by Weinberger in October 1971, the Agena become NASA  FGB  :)

...you have been found guilty by the elders of the forum of a (imaginary) vendetta against Saint Elon - BLAAASPHEMER !

Offline William Barton

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Re: French Hermes Spaceplane
« Reply #35 on: 04/16/2009 11:12 AM »
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The agena target vehicle can be sondiered a tug.

In my own little alt-history, where the shuttle is canned by Weinberger in October 1971, the Agena become NASA  FGB  :)



Back in the day, I wanted the Titan Transstage made into a tug.

Offline William Barton

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Re: French Hermes Spaceplane
« Reply #36 on: 04/16/2009 11:14 AM »
In today's context, is there some reason why ATV isn't an ideal starting point for a tug?

Offline Archibald

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Re: French Hermes Spaceplane
« Reply #37 on: 04/16/2009 01:23 PM »
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In today's context, is there some reason why ATV isn't an ideal starting point for a tug?

Can't see any reason. ULA Payload Bay Fairing is to be send at the edge of the ISS non-fly-zone, then  "picked up" and docked by an ATV.
http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/11/interesting-paper-on-shuttle-alternatives/

http://www.unitedlaunchalliance.com/docs/publications/ULA/AIAA%20Space%202008%20Paper_MarkAFoster_pdf.pdf

Quote
Back in the day, I wanted the Titan Transstage made into a tug.

I preferred the Agena because it flew more - 360 times - and was lighter (7 tons instead of 15 tons, most of which propellant for GEO, unuseful when carrying station modules to LEO)
« Last Edit: 04/16/2009 01:25 PM by Archibald »
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Offline Aragatz

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Re: French Hermes Spaceplane
« Reply #38 on: 04/16/2009 03:40 PM »
Jean-Loup Chrétien and Patrick Baudry, french first and second in space, should have the drive, he was approached to that at the time

Offline spaceamillion

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Re: French Hermes Spaceplane
« Reply #39 on: 04/16/2009 07:12 PM »
Jean-Loup Chrétien and Patrick Baudry, french first and second in space, should have the drive, he was approached to that at the time

I took this picture at the Paris Air Show in 1991 with Hermes in the background
« Last Edit: 04/16/2009 07:12 PM by spaceamillion »

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