What's Happening at Bigelow?

[joek]

The other argument for launching the module as fully provisioned as possible is the need for a CBM and requisite RMS for large items.  Maybe Bigelow has plans to add those or has another solution planned?  Very little has been said about cargo resupply requirements.

I Bigelow proves out his business case, then there may be reason to build a dedicated 40 or 50 ton cargo container as well.

The problem remains how to dock/berth and transfer cargo.  If it all has to be transferred through APAS/iLIDS, that will constrain the size/volume of components.

[ChefPat]

The other argument for launching the module as fully provisioned as possible is the need for a CBM and requisite RMS for large items.  Maybe Bigelow has plans to add those or has another solution planned?  Very little has been said about cargo resupply requirements.

I Bigelow proves out his business case, then there may be reason to build a dedicated 40 or 50 ton cargo container as well.

The problem remains how to dock/berth and transfer cargo.  If it all has to be transferred through APAS/iLIDS, that will constrain the size/volume of components.

I agree. At 32" APAS & iLIDS are too small for much heavy duty stuff. Something else will have to be designed 'if" there is a business case.

[Nomadd]

 Gotcha Baldusi. Thanks.
 I'm pretty sure Spacex priced the CRS bid as high as they thought they could and still get the contract. It turned out they could have priced it even higher and still won, but nobody except them knows how low they could have gone. Once things have settled down, assuming the Dragons are good for several flights, the cargo cost should drop by 50%. Maybe more when they get the M1d going with the stretched F9 and can really max out the payload.

 It would be nice to find out what they could cram into a pre-launch BA330 if the structure and launcher could handle it. The modules don't expand that much. It seems like they should pretty much be able to fully configure and stock it if the room gained by inflating it is all people space.

[simonbp]

I agree. At 32" APAS & iLIDS are too small for much heavy duty stuff. Something else will have to be designed 'if" there is a business case.

It has; it's called CBM and is currently available on Dragon, HTV, and Cygnus spacecraft...

[apace]

I agree. At 32" APAS & iLIDS are too small for much heavy duty stuff. Something else will have to be designed 'if" there is a business case.

It has; it's called CBM and is currently available on Dragon, HTV, and Cygnus spacecraft...

For CBM you need a Remote Manipulator System.

[ChefPat]

I agree. At 32" APAS & iLIDS are too small for much heavy duty stuff. Something else will have to be designed 'if" there is a business case.

It has; it's called CBM and is currently available on Dragon, HTV, and Cygnus spacecraft...

50" is more like it.

[ChefPat]

I agree. At 32" APAS & iLIDS are too small for much heavy duty stuff. Something else will have to be designed 'if" there is a business case.

It has; it's called CBM and is currently available on Dragon, HTV, and Cygnus spacecraft...

For CBM you need a Remote Manipulator System.

I'll bet a hybrid is already being considered.

[Ben the Space Brit]

I agree. At 32" APAS & iLIDS are too small for much heavy duty stuff. Something else will have to be designed 'if" there is a business case.

It has; it's called CBM and is currently available on Dragon, HTV, and Cygnus spacecraft...

For CBM you need a Remote Manipulator System.

I'll bet a hybrid is already being considered.

I doubt it.  Developing a whole new docking system would probably be prohibitatively expensive.  It would be simpler and cheaper to build a 'quick and dirty' RMS whose only role is to capture the cargo ship and attach it to the hull.

It is possible that the arm could be 'passive' in capture and the cargo ship will be remotely manoeuvred by the station crew to dock with the arm's end effector much like how a modern fighter docks with a refuelling boom.  This is doable - ISS already has this option for ATV and Progress freighters, IIRC.  A simple RMS arm would be reduced complexity as it could have just one plane of movement and only one function, to move the CBM-equipped freighter to its berthing port and later swing it out to its release point.

[douglas100]

It is possible that the arm could be 'passive' in capture and the cargo ship will be remotely manoeuvred by the station crew to dock with the arm's end effector much like how a modern fighter docks with a refuelling boom.  This is doable - ISS already has this option for ATV and Progress freighters, IIRC.

Are you saying that there is currently an option on the ISS which allows Progress and ATV to be captured by the arm? If so, could you provide a link to this information, please?

[oldAtlas_Eguy]

I'm sure MDA would sell you a Canadarm or Canadarm2 real cheap.

[Prober]

The other argument for launching the module as fully provisioned as possible is the need for a CBM and requisite RMS for large items.  Maybe Bigelow has plans to add those or has another solution planned?  Very little has been said about cargo resupply requirements.

If Bigelow proves out his business case, then there may be reason to build a dedicated 40 or 50 ton cargo container as well.

Doesn't Bigelow have his own supply ship designed?  Thought he only had need of low cost launching & people transport.

[Jorge]

It is possible that the arm could be 'passive' in capture and the cargo ship will be remotely manoeuvred by the station crew to dock with the arm's end effector much like how a modern fighter docks with a refuelling boom.  This is doable - ISS already has this option for ATV and Progress freighters, IIRC.

Are you saying that there is currently an option on the ISS which allows Progress and ATV to be captured by the arm? If so, could you provide a link to this information, please?

Yes, this sounds extremely dubious.

[Ben the Space Brit]

It is possible that the arm could be 'passive' in capture and the cargo ship will be remotely manoeuvred by the station crew to dock with the arm's end effector much like how a modern fighter docks with a refuelling boom.  This is doable - ISS already has this option for ATV and Progress freighters, IIRC.

Are you saying that there is currently an option on the ISS which allows Progress and ATV to be captured by the arm? If so, could you provide a link to this information, please?

No, I am saying that there is an option on the Russian Segment to remotely fly at least Progress and possibly ATV (if it uses the same rendezvous control system - KURZ) to docking with the ISS if its on-board systems fail or it loses com with mission control.  This system could be used to rendezvous with the end effector of a simple single-plane movement arm which would then attach the CBM-equipped vehicle to the Bigelow module.

[hop]

No, I am saying that there is an option on the Russian Segment to remotely fly at least Progress and possibly ATV

AFAIK ATV only has an abort button, only Progress has TORU remote control.

This system could be used to rendezvous with the end effector of a simple single-plane movement arm which would then attach the CBM-equipped vehicle to the Bigelow module.

Definitely not a given that TORU would allow flying with sufficient stability and precision for this kind of thing.

[manboy]

I agree. At 32" APAS & iLIDS are too small for much heavy duty stuff. Something else will have to be designed 'if" there is a business case.

It has; it's called CBM and is currently available on Dragon, HTV, and Cygnus spacecraft...

For CBM you need a Remote Manipulator System.

I'll bet a hybrid is already being considered.

Why would you need a hybrid when NDS can be used for both docking and berthing? All you would need is NDS but with a larger diameter.

The other argument for launching the module as fully provisioned as possible is the need for a CBM and requisite RMS for large items.  Maybe Bigelow has plans to add those or has another solution planned?  Very little has been said about cargo resupply requirements.

If Bigelow proves out his business case, then there may be reason to build a dedicated 40 or 50 ton cargo container as well.

Doesn't Bigelow have his own supply ship designed?  Thought he only had need of low cost launching & people transport.

No.

[ChefPat]

Doesn't Bigelow have his own supply ship designed?  Thought he only had need of low cost launching & people transport.

I've never heard of Bigelow designing a cargo ship/container. His plan appears to be, to let the launch providers supply that duty.

[joek]

Doesn't Bigelow have his own supply ship designed?  Thought he only had need of low cost launching & people transport.

I've never heard of Bigelow designing a cargo ship/container. His plan appears to be, to let the launch providers supply that duty.

As far as I can tell, Bigelow has never discussed cargo requirements.  Given his stated nominal BA-330 6-person occupancy with 90-day rotation (4 crew flights/yr/module), additional cargo flights would appear necessary given the capabilities of likely crew vehicles.

If he reduces expected occupancy, it might be possible to deliver the required consumables for each occupant for a 90-day stay (volume permitting), albeit at the expense of revenue/profit.  E.g., figure in round numbers each empty seat provides sufficient consumables for one station occupant for 90 days, which is probably optimistic.

Anything above sustenance (e.g., R&D) would likely increase cargo mass requirements.  However, anything above sustenance is likely to be client-specific (unless maybe they're tourists), so until he knows what they want/need, it's difficult to plan for.  And thus is a problem for down-the-road, and why he hasn't talked about it?

[Jorge]

I agree. At 32" APAS & iLIDS are too small for much heavy duty stuff. Something else will have to be designed 'if" there is a business case.

It has; it's called CBM and is currently available on Dragon, HTV, and Cygnus spacecraft...

For CBM you need a Remote Manipulator System.

I'll bet a hybrid is already being considered.

Why would you need a hybrid when NDS can be used for both docking and berthing? All you would need is NDS but with a larger diameter.

No such thing. NDS is a spec, the spec includes the diameter, and the diameter is smaller than a CBM.

By definition, a docking system expanded to the size of CBM is no longer NDS-compliant.

[Jorge]

No, I am saying that there is an option on the Russian Segment to remotely fly at least Progress and possibly ATV

AFAIK ATV only has an abort button, only Progress has TORU remote control.

This system could be used to rendezvous with the end effector of a simple single-plane movement arm which would then attach the CBM-equipped vehicle to the Bigelow module.

Definitely not a given that TORU would allow flying with sufficient stability and precision for this kind of thing.

Agreed, I don't think Ben's claim holds up.

[manboy]

Doesn't Bigelow have his own supply ship designed?  Thought he only had need of low cost launching & people transport.

I've never heard of Bigelow designing a cargo ship/container. His plan appears to be, to let the launch providers supply that duty.

However, anything above sustenance is likely to be client-specific (unless maybe they're tourists), so until he knows what they want/need, it's difficult to plan for.  And thus is a problem for down-the-road, and why he hasn't talked about it?

He has.

I agree. At 32" APAS & iLIDS are too small for much heavy duty stuff. Something else will have to be designed 'if" there is a business case.

It has; it's called CBM and is currently available on Dragon, HTV, and Cygnus spacecraft...

For CBM you need a Remote Manipulator System.

I'll bet a hybrid is already being considered.

Why would you need a hybrid when NDS can be used for both docking and berthing? All you would need is NDS but with a larger diameter.

No such thing. NDS is a spec, the spec includes the diameter, and the diameter is smaller than a CBM.

By definition, a docking system expanded to the size of CBM is no longer NDS-compliant.

You completely missed the point.