Author Topic: What's Happening at Bigelow?  (Read 429257 times)

Offline Cinder

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #300 on: 07/06/2010 09:40 am »
Reality check: there are currently companies like BioServe and Nanoracks that sell space in facilities aboard ISS. Why would anyone pay hundreds of millions of dollars many years from now for services on a Bigelow station when they can pay a fraction of that for services in orbit now?

It all sounds like the plan is to wait a few years, and then a miracle happens.

Bigelow couldn't offer a competitive fractional plan as BioServe and NR do now?
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Online yg1968

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #301 on: 07/07/2010 05:46 pm »
Reality check: there are currently companies like BioServe and Nanoracks that sell space in facilities aboard ISS. Why would anyone pay hundreds of millions of dollars many years from now for services on a Bigelow station when they can pay a fraction of that for services in orbit now?

It all sounds like the plan is to wait a few years, and then a miracle happens.

I was assuming that the ISS would have been deorbited in 2020 (or 2028). It's not clear to me that everybody wants to abandon LEO all together past 2020 (or 2028). For example, Russia doesn't seem very interested in BEO for the time being. I am not sure about Europe and Japan. Canada is waiting for things to play out in the United States.

But if the CSA and ESA are willing to pay Russia for a 5th Soyuz in the next few years, I suspect that they might also be willing to pay Bigelow and SpaceX (or Boeing, etc.) for access to space for their astronauts once the ISS is deorbited.  Paying Bigelow and SpaceX is a lot less risky than investing in hardware that will never fly because NASA's program keep getting cancelled every 4 years or so.  For many countries, their human spaceflight program is their astronauts and they don't mind relying on others for ferrying their astronauts. SpaceX (or Boeing, etc.) and Bigelow can provide them such an access to LEO.
« Last Edit: 07/07/2010 05:57 pm by yg1968 »

Offline neilh

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #302 on: 07/08/2010 01:30 am »
I noticed these bits of info on the updated website:

http://bigelowaerospace.com/sundancer.php
Quote
Propulsion:

Sundancer utilizes two propulsion systems on the fore and aft of the spacecraft. The aft propulsion system can be refueled and reused.

http://bigelowaerospace.com/ba330.php
Quote
Propulsion:

BA 330 utilizes two propulsion systems on the fore and aft of the spacecraft. The aft propulsion system can be refueled and reused.

This got me searching for info on their refualable propulsion system, and I located the following regarding their collaboration with Orion Propulsion (now part of Dynetics):

http://www.dynetics.com/descriptionpage.php?id=AerospaceSundancer&from=space
Quote
Propulsion Programs
Bigelow Aerospace Sundancer Forward Propulsion System (FPS)

Status: Completed

Dynetics designed, qualified, produced, and delivered the forward propulsion system (FPS) for Sundancer, the world's first commercial space habitat. Our innovative, "green" FPS operates on hydrogen and oxygen generated from water, sweat, and wastewater from Bigelow's proprietary Environmental Control Life Support System (ECLSS). This eliminates toxic propellants such as hydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide that are costly to use and harmful to the environment and creates a safer, cleaner work environment for humans on Earth and in space.

The FPS successfully completed a rigorous qualification test program, including thermal cycling, EMI, static loads, vibration and acoustic, and accelerated life testing consisting of 10,000 pulses.

The FPS can be adapted for other uses, including roll control for small launch vehicles, reaction control on larger upper stages, and attitude control on space craft.

For more information about the Sundancer project, visit Bigelow Aerospace's website.

Does this mean that Bigelow could have the first refueling hydrolox system in space?
« Last Edit: 07/08/2010 01:31 am by neilh »
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Offline mmeijeri

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #303 on: 07/08/2010 01:33 am »
That is was I had been expecting, but it's the aft hydrazine monopropellant system that is going to be refuelable.
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Offline neilh

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #304 on: 07/08/2010 01:38 am »
That is was I had been expecting, but it's the aft hydrazine monopropellant system that is going to be refuelable.

Do you have a source for the aft propulsion being hydrazine-based? I can't seem to find one.
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Offline mmeijeri

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #305 on: 07/08/2010 01:44 am »
http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/sundancer.php
Quote
Sundancer utilizes two propulsion systems on the fore and aft of the spacecraft. The aft propulsion system can be refueled and reused.

Aerojet Supplies Aft Propulsion for Sundancer
Quote
The Aerojet system for Sundancer is of a monopropellant hydrazine design and consists of hardware that has been well-proven on numerous missions. A similar system was used on May 25 to help NASA's Phoenix probe become the first spacecraft in more than 30 years to successfully land on Mars using rockets alone.

We were talking about this last week in this thread.

So far I have seen no explicit statements on the propulsion systems of the propulsion bus, but I think it is intended to be refuelable.
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Offline neilh

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #306 on: 07/08/2010 01:45 am »
Thanks! Somehow I managed to miss that conversation earlier. :-P
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Offline neilh

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #307 on: 07/08/2010 01:47 am »
Looks like there was actually a thread about the Aerojet/Bigelow aft propulsion system a couple years ago:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=13251.msg308267
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Offline neilh

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #308 on: 07/08/2010 01:57 am »
So... I'm guessing the fore and aft propulsion systems for the Sundancer and BA330 modules are as follows:

aft propulsion: can be refueled, used for large-scale maneuvers like getting into the proper orbit, and possibly even things like boosting a module to GEO/Lagrangian/Lunar orbit after refueling

fore propulsion: utilizes hydrolox propellant which can be generated at a small scale from water/sweat, presumably only for small-scale maneuvering/control and separating from other modules. It's on the end which connects with other modules, so you don't need to worry about contaminating the interfaces of other modules with hydrazine. Perhaps they're planning on storing the hydrogen in gaseous form?
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Offline mmeijeri

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #309 on: 07/08/2010 01:59 am »
aft propulsion: can be refueled, used for large-scale maneuvers like getting into the proper orbit, and possibly even things like boosting a module to GEO/Lagrangian/Lunar orbit after refueling

Pretty expensive with storable propellant, especially monopropellant, though not necessarily prohibitively so if there is sufficient demand and costs can be amortised over many years.
« Last Edit: 07/08/2010 02:00 am by mmeijeri »
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Offline neilh

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #310 on: 07/08/2010 02:06 am »
I also hadn't noticed it previously, but these photos in the updated news archive are the first photos (I think) showing the windows in the Bigelow modules:

http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/news/?News_Archive

According to the site, each module is supposed to have 4 windows.
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Offline mmeijeri

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #311 on: 07/19/2010 08:40 pm »
A new promotional video for the CST-100 also shows a nice flyaround of the planned Bigelow station:

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Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #312 on: 07/20/2010 09:37 am »
A new promotional video for the CST-100 also shows a nice flyaround of the planned Bigelow station:

Interesting that the node has a propulsion module.  Would that be a reboost engine? Or are they planning to ultimately take that thing out to one of the EML points?

A secondary question: Would the propulsion module be refuellable? Maybe from a Dragon or Cygnus tanker? It would seem logical to make it hypergolic or monopropellent for long-term storage convenience.  That would make prop transfer off-the-shelf technology.
« Last Edit: 07/20/2010 09:37 am by Ben the Space Brit »
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Offline mmeijeri

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #313 on: 07/20/2010 09:39 am »
Yes, the propulsion module uses hydrazine monopropellant and it is refuelable. There was a bit of discussion about this further up the thread.
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Offline Apollo-phill

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #314 on: 07/20/2010 10:41 am »
Looking at that Boeing CTS-100 'new' video showing docking with Bigelow station.

What effect, if any, are the downward firing thrusters from CTS-100 going have on the Bigelow station materials ?

Offline kkattula

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #315 on: 07/20/2010 04:27 pm »
Looking at that Boeing CTS-100 'new' video showing docking with Bigelow station.

What effect, if any, are the downward firing thrusters from CTS-100 going have on the Bigelow station materials ?

They could just be cold gas thrusters.

With something more powerful for OMS type burns away from the station.
« Last Edit: 07/20/2010 04:27 pm by kkattula »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #316 on: 07/20/2010 04:35 pm »
Looking at that Boeing CTS-100 'new' video showing docking with Bigelow station.

What effect, if any, are the downward firing thrusters from CTS-100 going have on the Bigelow station materials ?

They could just be cold gas thrusters.

With something more powerful for OMS type burns away from the station.
Speaking of cold gas thrusters... is helium an especially good gas for a "cold" gas thruster since it has a negative Joule-Thomson Coefficient at room temperature (and all the way down to about 53K)? (i.e. it heats up when it expands, rather than cools which most other gases do, including nitrogen.)
« Last Edit: 07/20/2010 04:45 pm by Robotbeat »
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Offline clongton

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #317 on: 07/20/2010 08:01 pm »
Speaking of cold gas thrusters... is helium an especially good gas for a "cold" gas thruster since it has a negative Joule-Thomson Coefficient at room temperature (and all the way down to about 53K)? (i.e. it heats up when it expands, rather than cools which most other gases do, including nitrogen.)

No. Helium has a limited availability on earth with supplies diminishing. It is too valuable to use for thrusters, especially with so many other thrust gasses available with no supply downsides.
« Last Edit: 07/20/2010 08:01 pm by clongton »
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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #318 on: 07/20/2010 08:44 pm »
Speaking of cold gas thrusters... is helium an especially good gas for a "cold" gas thruster since it has a negative Joule-Thomson Coefficient at room temperature (and all the way down to about 53K)? (i.e. it heats up when it expands, rather than cools which most other gases do, including nitrogen.)

No. Helium has a limited availability on earth with supplies diminishing. It is too valuable to use for thrusters, especially with so many other thrust gasses available with no supply downsides.
That's not what I was referring to. I was referring to its performance, not cost. I should start another thread on this:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=22314.msg620440
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Offline thomson

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #319 on: 07/26/2010 01:56 pm »
Bigelow webpage got updated recently http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/.

Not sure if this is just new design, but I believe I haven't seen some of the info there, e.g. Sundancer vs ISS Destiny comparison (http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/images/sundancer-last-compare.jpg).

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