Space Ship Two - General Thread

[pippin]

Speculate away!

I say 12 tons, based on nothing.

imperial or metric?

[rank amature]

imperial, but you can use what ever system you like.

(just add a link to a conversion table)

[gladiator1332]

It would be easiest to have SS3 as a capsule, as heating issues get worse and worse with increasing speeds if you go higher, nevermind orbital.

I agree. If orbital and the eventually the Moon with a SS4 or 5 is Rutan's goal, then something similar to the T-Space CXV will be the likely configuration for SS3.
Winged vehicles like SS1 and SS2 make sense for this suborbital tourist market, but when it comes to actual orbital flight, and possible lunar flight, a capsule is the way to go.

[rank amature]

[/quote]I agree. If orbital and the eventually the Moon with a SS4 or 5 is Rutan's goal, then something similar to the T-Space CXV will be the likely configuration for SS3.[/quote]

Why do we use the same vehicle to go all the way to the moon?

Why not use a cycler ship, a winged SS3, and a Lunar lander at the other end?

[tobi453]

Interesting quote from this article:

Perhaps the most intriguing research to come out of the White Knight project, however, is in aeronautic design. Pending patents, Mr Rutan is cagey about the details. But he says that building the aircraft has demonstrated something “very significant” about the main structural support on a wing (known as a wing spar) and that, as a consequence, his company’s technology will allow the construction of an aeroplane of “any size”.

If true, that is very interesting indeed. In theory, White Knight Two already has the capacity to carry a single-passenger spaceship that is capable of getting not just into space, but into orbit. Carrying one person into orbit in this way is probably not commercially viable. But if a larger high-altitude jet could be built, larger orbiters would also be possible. “We’ve made layouts of subsonic launch airplanes that could put six people in orbit off this airport,” he says. But the next-generation aircraft would have to be bigger. “Much bigger. Much bigger,” says Mr Rutan, with a twinkle in his eye.

[NUAETIUS]

I don't have the math chops to answer this question, but my wife has asked me a few times.  If you attached a Armadillo Aerospace Rocket Racer to the bottom of White Knight II, would the racer be able to go high and fast enough that thermal protection would be necessary?  The reason I ask is if the racer could get to some significant height, say 50/60 miles, you would be able to sell these flights for MUCH less than a full suborbital flight, and both planes could land, refuel and go back out in the same day.  I know that if I could get a ride to 50 miles plus for 5-10 thousand I would have to seriously consider it.

[gladiator1332]

I don't have the math chops to answer this question, but my wife has asked me a few times.  If you attached a Armadillo Aerospace Rocket Racer to the bottom of White Knight II, would the racer be able to go high and fast enough that thermal protection would be necessary?  The reason I ask is if the racer could get to some significant height, say 50/60 miles, you would be able to sell these flights for MUCH less than a full suborbital flight, and both planes could land, refuel and go back out in the same day.  I know that if I could get a ride to 50 miles plus for 5-10 thousand I would have to seriously consider it.

That is an interesting idea...somewhat like the early X-15 flights that just went high and fast. Get the price down to around 10k I think a lot of people today could see it as affordable. Bill it as high and fast and at the edge of space.

[joncz]

I don't have the math chops to answer this question, but my wife has asked me a few times.  If you attached a Armadillo Aerospace Rocket Racer to the bottom of White Knight II, would the racer be able to go high and fast enough that thermal protection would be necessary?

The math is irrelevant.  The Rocket Racer is a Velocity XL airframe (Rocket Racing League recently acquired Velocity Aircraft).  It's not a pressurized airframe.

Rocket Racing League is about going low and fast.

[Garrett]

Hmmm, me thinks they will.
 - White Knight Two payload capacity: 30,500 kg
 - Orbital Sciences Pegasus: 18,500 kg
 - Orbital Sciences Pegasus XL: 23,130 kg

1.  NASA has no need to purchase one.  If there is a need, it would lease the services vs buying an aircraft.  Same with OSC, they lease too.

Sure, leasing makes sense. I never explicitly said I thought they would buy one.

2.  Hmmmm, How can "think" that when the designer of the Pegasus (antonioe) just said no in the previous posts

Good point and taken. I should have started my post with "Why not?" instead of "me thinks they will". I'm a newcomer, as you'll see from how many posts I've made, so I didn't know Antonioe worked for Orbital.
I was thinking more in terms of NASA being a potential customer than Orbital. The references to Orbital were for payload size comparison.

If the Wikipedia figure for the White Knight Two payload is wrong then my apologies. It would be nice if somebody who actually knows the correct figure could change the Wiki entry, if it really is wrong. If the figure is correct, wouldn't a WK2 be capable of launching a rocket similar to Pegasus?

[docmordrid]

Hard to know the actual mass of SS2 when SpaceDev just got the engine contract a few weeks ago - meaning they're a while away from engine/tank prototypes, much less an assembled spacecraft.

[kkattula]

I don't have the math chops to answer this question, but my wife has asked me a few times.  If you attached a Armadillo Aerospace Rocket Racer to the bottom of White Knight II, would the racer be able to go high and fast enough that thermal protection would be necessary?

The math is irrelevant.  The Rocket Racer is a Velocity XL airframe (Rocket Racing League recently acquired Velocity Aircraft).  It's not a pressurized airframe.

Rocket Racing League is about going low and fast.

You could wear a pressure suit, BUT, the Rocket Racer has no reaction control system, it uses elevons, rudder etc. Up high it would be out of control. I wouldn't think the Armadillo engine installed is gimballed even. (unlike their VTVL vehicles)

XCOR (the first RRL engine provider) are building the Lynx.  A ground launched liquid fuel rocket plane that will fly to 60+ km, and could fly several times per day. It seats 2, a pilot and passenger.

http://www.xcor.com/press-releases/2008/08-03-26_Lynx_suborbital_vehicle.html

[jabe]

Anyone hear rumblings on the possible test flights for White Knight two?  I seem to remember they were going to do flights tests in early September.
jb
edit: flightglobal has an article saying they have been doing night time taxiing.. first flight in a few weeks..or at end of year..meaning..when we are ready we will try a flight

[AnalogMan]

Press release and article on possible use of WhiteKnight II/SpaceShip II for scientific measurements of atmosphere:

http://www.virgingalactic.com/htmlsite/news.php

NOAA and Virgin Galactic to explore collaboration for study of climate change

The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) and Virgin Galactic (VG) announced today that they will explore the use of VG’s vehicles for climate science and other research relevant to NOAA’s mission. NOAA and Virgin Galactic intend to explore a possible collaboration that ultimately would fly NOAA science instruments onboard the VG carrier vehicle and SpaceShipTwo. The first of these instruments would provide data on atmospheric composition "particularly CO2 and other greenhouse gases" that will increase understanding of important global climate science. Such data will also provide important in situ measurements which will help provide calibration of satellite-based atmospheric measurements.

... [continues]

BBC News Article

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7644553.stm

[DaveJes1979]

I don't have the math chops to answer this question, but my wife has asked me a few times.  If you attached a Armadillo Aerospace Rocket Racer to the bottom of White Knight II, would the racer be able to go high and fast enough that thermal protection would be necessary?

The math is irrelevant.  The Rocket Racer is a Velocity XL airframe (Rocket Racing League recently acquired Velocity Aircraft).  It's not a pressurized airframe.

Not only that, but any attempt at a ballistic trajectory like that would quickly bring the airframe past its V(ne) speed and overstress it.

[antonioe]

There is also the "small" (ahem...) problem of the desirability of stable high-alpha flight capability (does wonders for your trajectory in terms of max q, max g's, max heating rate, etc. etc...)

SO... take a Velocity or LongEze, give it a pressurized cabin, arrange so it is stable at extremely high angles of attack - for example, by having a variable incidence angle wing and tail group, never mind the drag - add a suitably sized rocket engine, drop it from White Knight and Violá!  The perfect low cost, low-risk high altitude, high speed "bunny hop" airplane.

Wait, wait... somebody named Bart or Bert already already did that... I think it's called SpaceShip One!!!

[Ronsmytheiii]

From Flight global, WhiteKnighttwo has finally rolled out onto the apron:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/10/20/317644/exclusive-picture-virgin-galactics-whiteknighttwo-is-prepared-for-flight.html

[usn_skwerl]

There is also the "small" (ahem...) problem of the desirability of stable high-alpha flight capability (does wonders for your trajectory in terms of max q, max g's, max heating rate, etc. etc...)

SO... take a Velocity or LongEze, give it a pressurized cabin, arrange so it is stable at extremely high angles of attack - for example, by having a variable incidence angle wing and tail group, never mind the drag - add a suitably sized rocket engine, drop it from White Knight and Violá!  The perfect low cost, low-risk high altitude, high speed "bunny hop" airplane.

Wait, wait... somebody named Bart or Bert already already did that... I think it's called SpaceShip One!!!

a slightly cheaper and/or more feasible option could be to add a controllable chute, sort of a cross between the BRS like, say, a Cirrus SR22 has, and a large skydiver's chute.

[antonioe]

Even better: attach a bunch of, say, weather balloons to a suitable piece of furniture, say an aluminum lawn chair (with a seat belt) to sit on.  You must also carry a BB gun with you.  This will allow you to ascend to perhaps not Space Station altitude, but certainly high enough to see the curvature of the Earth, black sky, etc.  When you are done enjoying the view, use the BB gun to selectively pop enough of the weather balloons to reduce your lift and gently return to the ground.  The descend will also provide you with ample zero- or near-zero-gravity time.  And the best part is, this is a FLIGHT-PROVEN approach.

I know, I know, you may be thinking "has Antonio flipped his lid?  Doesn't he know that the rider will die of hypoxia well before he reaches the desired altitude???"  Well, it's as simple as going to your nearby Dive Shop and renting a Nitrox cylinder and a regulator set.  A wet suit may also provide thermal protection against high-altitude cold, and the black color absorb solar heat for additional warmth.  Note that at those high altitudes, a single 80 cu. ft. cylinder should provide plenty of breathing time to complete the flight.

This approach is a lot simpler, and certainly much more economical, than the unnecessarily complicated approaches (such as rockets, etc.) that those inefficient old.space companies and their non-creative engineers try to use in order to inflate the costs and increase their profits.

[kkattula]

Antonioe, are considering jumping ship to JP Aerospace?

[antonioe]

Yeah!  Up, up and Away!.....