Author Topic: Question about Falcon 9  (Read 5401 times)

Offline koradji

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Question about Falcon 9
« on: 06/24/2008 09:43 am »
In SpaceX website, they said "This vehicle(Falcon 9) will be capable of sustaining an engine failure at any point in flight and still successfully completing its mission."

I have two untrained questions:

1)Falcon 9 rocket has nine Merlin engines clustered together. If "an engine failure" occur, Falcon 9 will lose one ninth of total thrust, its acceleration will decrease. Then eight surviving engines have to burn longer.
Is it possible to increase the thrust of those eight engines for compensate lost thrust?

2)If that failed engine is not the central one but one of eight peripheral engines, the total thrust vector will not pass through the center of mass, that will cause rotation round center of mass. I think engines need use "Gimbal Capability" to counteract that rotation.
Is it possible to shut down another engine that locate at symmetrical position?


Offline whitewatcher

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Re: Question about Falcon 9
« Reply #1 on: 06/24/2008 10:03 am »
1.) I'm not a Merlin specialist, but I suspect them to run engines at full thrust at liftoff. Later into the flight, thrust levels are decreased to limit the acceleration stress on structure and payload. (Typical profile without SRBs.)
A lower thrust in the early seconds after liftoff would increase the gravitational losses, which means that you need more fuel to reach orbit. In later phases of the first stage flight they probably have some margin to throttle up the remaining thrusters.

2.) Shutting down a second engine will lead to insufficient thrust. The russian N1 "Hercules" had this procedure implemented ..... you probably know what happened:
The rocket had shut off too many engines before clearing the pad. It fell back and left a big hole in the ground. (fuel mass around 2500 mT)
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Online kevin-rf

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Re: Question about Falcon 9
« Reply #2 on: 06/24/2008 12:13 pm »


2)If that failed engine is not the central one but one of eight peripheral engines, the total thrust vector will not pass through the center of mass, that will cause rotation round center of mass. I think engines need use "Gimbal Capability" to counteract that rotation.
Is it possible to shut down another engine that locate at symmetrical position?



If you gimbal the opposite engine to point through the falcon's CG it will not have the rotational issue. The only problem with this is you take a sin loss on the gimbal'd engine and the CG will be changing as the tanks empty (so you need to be constantly adjusting the gimbal angle, but the good news is because of the upper stage and payload the CG will move foward as the tanks empty leading to a smaller and smaller gimbal angle, sin loss).
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Offline iamlucky13

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Re: Question about Falcon 9
« Reply #3 on: 06/24/2008 05:24 pm »
In addition to the above comments, I'm pretty sure some mention in a Musk update or a press release was made about margins. Basically, most payloads would not max out the rocket, so there should be sufficient reserve in the second stage to account for the added gravity losses in the first stage.

Offline koradji

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Re: Question about Falcon 9
« Reply #4 on: 06/24/2008 06:08 pm »
Thank all of you. Your answer teach me a lot.

Offline Antares

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Re: Question about Falcon 9
« Reply #5 on: 06/24/2008 06:17 pm »
IIUC, right now the Merlins only have a single throttle point.  So no throttle-up would be available to compensate, nor throttle-down to g-limit.  Engines would have to shut off to g-limit.

As has been stated, a lost engine would impart additional gravity losses to the overall trajectory.  The burn time of the remaining engines would increase.  At some point, the vehicle would not be able to make mission even with a combination of increased first stage burn time and second stage propellant margin.
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Online kevin-rf

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Re: Question about Falcon 9
« Reply #6 on: 06/25/2008 12:46 pm »
IIUC, right now the Merlins only have a single throttle point.  So no throttle-up would be available to compensate, nor throttle-down to g-limit.  Engines would have to shut off to g-limit.

Are you sure, I thought one of the second flight remedies was to throttle down the Merlin just before shutdown so that the turbine in the Merlin didn't impart as much rotational inertia to the first stage during staging...
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Offline Antares

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Re: Question about Falcon 9
« Reply #7 on: 06/25/2008 02:52 pm »
Hmmm.  Maybe.  That would be good.  I've been wondering how they were going to minimize that, as the root cause of the F1.2 failure was not slosh or the first stage hitting the second.  It was whatever caused the first stage to rotate.
If I like something on NSF, it's probably because I know it to be accurate.  Every once in a while, it's just something I agree with.  Facts generally receive the former.

Offline kkattula

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Re: Question about Falcon 9
« Reply #8 on: 06/25/2008 03:02 pm »
First stage rotated due to shutdown transients and higher dynamic air pressure due to a lower separation altitude due to an off-nominal mixture ratio

Offline antonioe

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Re: Question about Falcon 9
« Reply #9 on: 06/25/2008 09:41 pm »
the root cause of the F1.2 failure was not slosh or the first stage hitting the second.  It was whatever caused the first stage to rotate.
What is your source for that statement?  Tnx.
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Offline iamlucky13

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Re: Question about Falcon 9
« Reply #10 on: 06/25/2008 10:51 pm »
From:

http://spacex.com/F1-DemoFlight2-Flight-Review.pdf

Quote
This rotation was caused partly by the Merlin engine pointing slightly off center-of-mass at shutdown. However, analysis now indicates that a majority of the rotation was caused by increased aerodynamic forces acting on the 2nd stage and fairing, due to the vehicle being lower than expected during stage separation and at a high angle of attack.
With corrections to the mixture ratio and helium pressurant margins, as well as improved thrust and Isp from the Merlin 1C engine that will be used in all future flights, the separation altitude will be considerably higher and aerodynamic forces will not be a factor. Merlin shutdown will also be initiated at a lower acceleration.

Regarding the shutdown:

Quote
There is high confidence that LOX slosh was the primary contributor to this instability...Falcon 1 did not use slosh baffles in the second stage tanks, as simulations done prior to flight indicated the slosh instability was a low risk. Given that in space there are no gust or buffet effects, the simulations did not take into account a perturbation, as occurred due to the hard slew maneuver after stage separation. Extensive 2nd stage slosh baffles will be included in all future flights, as is currently the case with the 1st stage.

In short, the rotation that caused the separation contact led to a hard rotation once the Kestrel ignited. This is believed to be the initial cause.

It also suggests the Merlin can be throttled down.

Offline Chris-A

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Re: Question about Falcon 9
« Reply #11 on: 06/26/2008 05:22 pm »
I guess this can be yet another Falcon 9 thread. ;)

Brian Mosdell from SpaceX was on the space show for Falcon 9 and LC40 at the cape.
http://www.thespaceshow.com/detail.asp?q=969


Also Jon Cowart, the Senior Project Manager for Ares 1-X Ground Systems, and William Dowdell for .

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