Author Topic: Masten Space Systems Update  (Read 334886 times)

Offline ArbitraryConstant

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1768
  • Liked: 436
  • Likes Given: 252
Re: Masten Space Systems Update
« Reply #820 on: 04/25/2017 06:22 PM »
It's closed on both sides, but it's split on the oxygen.
Forgive my ignorance, but split on the oxygen side means that the oxygen is heated by a heat exchanger and only LH2 is used as coolant?
I took that to be referring to what's discussed here: https://blogs.nasa.gov/J2X/2014/03/24/inside-the-leo-doghouse-the-art-of-expander-cycle-engines/

Due to pressure loss from moving through the cooling channels, pump power is saved by diverting part of the propellant flow and sending it directly to the combustion chamber.

I also understand the fuel to be methane, not LH2. I'd guess that influences the decision to go to a dual expander.
« Last Edit: 04/25/2017 06:27 PM by ArbitraryConstant »

Offline strangequark

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1074
  • Co-Founder, Tesseract Space
  • San Francisco, CA
  • Liked: 219
  • Likes Given: 12
Re: Masten Space Systems Update
« Reply #821 on: 04/25/2017 07:52 PM »
It's closed on both sides, but it's split on the oxygen.
Forgive my ignorance, but split on the oxygen side means that the oxygen is heated by a heat exchanger and only LH2 is used as coolant?
I took that to be referring to what's discussed here: https://blogs.nasa.gov/J2X/2014/03/24/inside-the-leo-doghouse-the-art-of-expander-cycle-engines/

Due to pressure loss from moving through the cooling channels, pump power is saved by diverting part of the propellant flow and sending it directly to the combustion chamber.

I also understand the fuel to be methane, not LH2. I'd guess that influences the decision to go to a dual expander.

This is essentially correct, except there are more losses than just the one through the cooling jacket, namely the turbine drop. For the oxygen, we have lots of mass flow available and simply do not need that much coolant. Better not to spend the energy pumping all of it up past injector pressure.

Yes, Broadsword is emphatically a LOX/Methane engine.

Benefits to dual expander are that you eliminate the interpropellant seal and keep the turbine inlet temperatures extremely low. The propellants also remain in a temperature range where they are more effective coolants, since the fluid properties affecting that drop off fairly rapidly past the critical temperature.

Lastly, one might note that the cycle is essentially identical to a full-flow staged combustion cycle, except that it is missing the requisite preburners.
« Last Edit: 04/25/2017 07:54 PM by strangequark »

Offline baldusi

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7437
  • Buenos Aires, Argentina
  • Liked: 1446
  • Likes Given: 4499
Re: Masten Space Systems Update
« Reply #822 on: 04/25/2017 10:18 PM »
That's why I love the Russian terminology "gas-gas".

Offline ArbitraryConstant

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1768
  • Liked: 436
  • Likes Given: 252
Re: Masten Space Systems Update
« Reply #823 on: 04/25/2017 11:28 PM »
Benefits to dual expander are that you eliminate the interpropellant seal and keep the turbine inlet temperatures extremely low. The propellants also remain in a temperature range where they are more effective coolants, since the fluid properties affecting that drop off fairly rapidly past the critical temperature.
I saw this blog post by jongoff: http://selenianboondocks.com/2011/03/xcorula-aluminum-rocket-nozzle-announcement/

He's talking about an XCOR engine but I'm guessing the advantages from relatively modest temperatures are similar and make it easier to use more aluminum, which helps due to good properties of the material and it being relatively easy to source with lots of good methods and tooling available to work with it.

Offline strangequark

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1074
  • Co-Founder, Tesseract Space
  • San Francisco, CA
  • Liked: 219
  • Likes Given: 12
Re: Masten Space Systems Update
« Reply #824 on: 04/25/2017 11:37 PM »
Yes, the wall temperatures are quite reasonable, and the Broadsword TCA and injector are entirely aluminum. The next iteration, under NASA Tipping Point, will be doing some particularly novel things with the aluminum material system that are enabled by using AM. I think we'll be giving GRCop a run for its money if the material R&D gets the results we're expecting.
« Last Edit: 04/25/2017 11:45 PM by strangequark »

Offline jongoff

  • Recovering Rocket Plumber/Space Entrepreneur
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6190
  • Lafayette/Broomfield, CO
  • Liked: 2294
  • Likes Given: 779
Re: Masten Space Systems Update
« Reply #825 on: 04/26/2017 05:04 AM »
Yes, the wall temperatures are quite reasonable, and the Broadsword TCA and injector are entirely aluminum. The next iteration, under NASA Tipping Point, will be doing some particularly novel things with the aluminum material system that are enabled by using AM. I think we'll be giving GRCop a run for its money if the material R&D gets the results we're expecting.

Yeah, if you guys pull off what you're trying to do, you'll have all the propulsion guys drooling in envy. :-)

~Jon

Offline Nomic

  • Member
  • Posts: 44
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Masten Space Systems Update
« Reply #826 on: 04/26/2017 01:16 PM »
LOX cooled aluminium and injector is interesting, any protective coatings on there? Impressive stuff.

Edit, flow diagram mentioned above attached.
« Last Edit: 04/26/2017 01:19 PM by Nomic »

Offline A_M_Swallow

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8479
  • South coast of England
  • Liked: 349
  • Likes Given: 148
Re: Masten Space Systems Update
« Reply #827 on: 04/26/2017 01:19 PM »
Sounds like Masten Space will be able to sell several sizes of engines. Broadsword 65k lbf and 25k lbf appears to be aimed at first stages. The Cutlass 25k lbf appears to be aimed at landers. Both LOX/Methane.

Offline strangequark

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1074
  • Co-Founder, Tesseract Space
  • San Francisco, CA
  • Liked: 219
  • Likes Given: 12
Re: Masten Space Systems Update
« Reply #828 on: 04/26/2017 01:56 PM »
Sounds like Masten Space will be able to sell several sizes of engines. Broadsword 65k lbf and 25k lbf appears to be aimed at first stages. The Cutlass 25k lbf appears to be aimed at landers. Both LOX/Methane.

Cutlass is actually intended as a cheap, [gasp]expendable[/gasp] upper stage engine using a gas generator cycle.

We're on hold on that engine for the time being. Savvy followers of the NASA SBIR site will notice that we did not get the Phase II on that. Apparently we got high marks on the technical review, but missed the priority cut on the programmatic review.

At the current time, all focus is on Broadsword.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline strangequark

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1074
  • Co-Founder, Tesseract Space
  • San Francisco, CA
  • Liked: 219
  • Likes Given: 12
Re: Masten Space Systems Update
« Reply #829 on: 04/26/2017 02:11 PM »
LOX cooled aluminium and injector is interesting, any protective coatings on there? Impressive stuff.

Edit, flow diagram mentioned above attached.

Well, nothing on the cold side, and as long as you keep the oxygen velocities low, there's nothing to worry about.

As for the hot side, lets just say that there's some critical post-processing steps. We fired a 400lbf test chamber without those steps last year. The results were spectacular, but they won't let me post that video.

On that note, we've been doing a lot with one of the NASA Marshall propulsion groups lately. One of the things we do when they come out is trade our most entertaining test failure videos. We keep ours mostly locked down, because the narrative on the internet goes south quickly, but those who work in this business can tell you the tales of the tears and molten slag you pay for every good Mach diamond.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline ArbitraryConstant

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1768
  • Liked: 436
  • Likes Given: 252
Re: Masten Space Systems Update
« Reply #830 on: 04/26/2017 02:14 PM »
]Broadsword 65k lbf and 25k lbf appears to be aimed at first stages.
It is difficult to imagine this technology not also being useful for upper stages. The thrust and closed cycle and methane seem well suited for an EELV-class upper stage.

Offline strangequark

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1074
  • Co-Founder, Tesseract Space
  • San Francisco, CA
  • Liked: 219
  • Likes Given: 12
Masten Space Systems Update
« Reply #831 on: 04/26/2017 02:22 PM »
]Broadsword 65k lbf and 25k lbf appears to be aimed at first stages.
It is difficult to imagine this technology not also being useful for upper stages. The thrust and closed cycle and methane seem well suited for an EELV-class upper stage.

You're not wrong. The 25,000 thrust is at sea level, so it's more like a 35,000lbf engine in vacuum, if given a proper bell extension. That's still within the 20-40klbf range that we're seeing a lot of interest in.

That's another reason we're focusing in on the single engine line. With the design for reusability, you take a bit of a mass and cost hit, over doing a truly expendable design, but we still expect to be much better than existing engines in this class on both fronts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: 04/26/2017 02:23 PM by strangequark »

Offline ArbitraryConstant

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1768
  • Liked: 436
  • Likes Given: 252
Re: Masten Space Systems Update
« Reply #832 on: 04/26/2017 02:45 PM »
That's another reason we're focusing in on the single engine line. With the design for reusability, you take a bit of a mass and cost hit, over doing a truly expendable design, but we still expect to be much better than existing engines in this class on both fronts.
Also seems like LH2 is "the only game in town" due to engine choices but not out of any technical requirement, and that brings other costs. A methane upper stage invites other new advancements like composite structure and seems like a compelling idea overall even if the ISP isn't quite in hydrogen territory.

Online TrevorMonty

Re: Masten Space Systems Update
« Reply #833 on: 04/26/2017 07:45 PM »
Strangequack do you know when XS1 award will be announced.

Offline strangequark

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1074
  • Co-Founder, Tesseract Space
  • San Francisco, CA
  • Liked: 219
  • Likes Given: 12
Re: Masten Space Systems Update
« Reply #834 on: 04/26/2017 07:47 PM »
Strangequack do you know when XS1 award will be announced.

I may be strange, but I hope I don't come off as a quack...

I don't have a date for that, nor could I likely share it if I did.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Online TrevorMonty

Re: Masten Space Systems Update
« Reply #835 on: 04/26/2017 09:16 PM »
Strangequack do you know when XS1 award will be announced.

I may be strange, but I hope I don't come off as a quack...

I don't have a date for that, nor could I likely share it if I did.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sorry typo.

Offline strangequark

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1074
  • Co-Founder, Tesseract Space
  • San Francisco, CA
  • Liked: 219
  • Likes Given: 12
Re: Masten Space Systems Update
« Reply #836 on: 04/26/2017 09:31 PM »
Strangequack do you know when XS1 award will be announced.

I may be strange, but I hope I don't come off as a quack...

I don't have a date for that, nor could I likely share it if I did.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sorry typo.
No problem. Gave me a good laugh.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline PhotoEngineer

  • Member
  • Posts: 40
  • SoCal
  • Liked: 46
  • Likes Given: 98
Re: Masten Space Systems Update
« Reply #837 on: 04/28/2017 05:11 PM »

I don't have a date for that, nor could I likely share it if I did.


I believe the proper response is "I can neither confirm nor deny"   ;)

Offline jongoff

  • Recovering Rocket Plumber/Space Entrepreneur
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6190
  • Lafayette/Broomfield, CO
  • Liked: 2294
  • Likes Given: 779
Re: Masten Space Systems Update
« Reply #838 on: 04/28/2017 05:16 PM »

I don't have a date for that, nor could I likely share it if I did.


I believe the proper response is "I can neither confirm nor deny"   ;)

Or sometimes "I could tell you, but then I'd have to......."

~Jon

Offline strangequark

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1074
  • Co-Founder, Tesseract Space
  • San Francisco, CA
  • Liked: 219
  • Likes Given: 12
Re: Masten Space Systems Update
« Reply #839 on: 04/28/2017 05:18 PM »

I don't have a date for that, nor could I likely share it if I did.


I believe the proper response is "I can neither confirm nor deny"   ;)

Or sometimes "I could tell you, but then I'd have to......."

~Jon

Masten in the old days sound like it was a little more brutal...

Tags: updates