Author Topic: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?  (Read 36706 times)

Offline Gene DiGennaro

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Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« on: 04/16/2008 03:04 PM »
Throwing this one out for general comments.

It's been getting to me lately. Some of the younger adults that I associate with really bought into that goofy Fox "documentary" and now express a small degree of doubt that humans did indeed walk on the moon.

Is it that it was so long in the past? Or is it that today's public is accustomed to hearing the mainstream media constant negativity regarding human spaceflight which leads them to believe that NASA couldn't do it, but had to fake it?

I'd like to know what fellow astro-geeks think.


Offline CessnaDriver

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #1 on: 04/16/2008 03:20 PM »
Human nature, do NOT let it get to you.There is always a segment of society that believes strange things because they *want* to believe them, and of course plenty of people happy to exploit that. Simply provide the facts and oppose the nonsense in a calm way. It can get old, but view it as a chance to educate about science and skeptical thinking.

Offline charlieb

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #2 on: 04/16/2008 03:24 PM »
It's easy to 'sell' young adults anything.  They don't 'think'.   If they buy MTV and it's 'message', then they will easily buy the 'fact' that moon-walks were staged at Area 51..    Just like 9-11 is a total hoax.  Man don't get me and others started.....
Former Shuttle Mission Ops Eng  (In them days DF24 - INCO GROUP/COMMS, Now DS231-AVIONICS BRANCH).

Offline vt_hokie

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RE: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #3 on: 04/16/2008 03:47 PM »
Because if Fox airs it on some lame television special, it must be true!  :laugh:

Offline khallow

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #4 on: 04/16/2008 03:50 PM »
I see a couple of sources. The distrust of government particularly the US government and the fact that we haven't tried since then.
Karl Hallowell

Offline j2_

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #5 on: 04/16/2008 03:55 PM »
Scientific and technical ignorance.

Online Chris Bergin

Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #6 on: 04/16/2008 04:21 PM »
It's the dark and dumb side of human nature, with a large dose of ignorance and lack of intelligence.

Same as those idiots that can't comprehend that 9/11 was as it happened, so fabricate a conspiracy as a form of self delusion, without realizing how incredibly insulting it is to the brave men and women that had to deal with the consequences of the tragedy, and those lost as a result.

Specific to the thread title, I think Buzz Aldrin "said" it best:


Offline Rusty_Barton

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #7 on: 04/16/2008 04:40 PM »
Just watch Jay Leno's "Jaywalking", where he asks simple questions of the man on the street. The answers are embarrassing. It's scary that people like this are allowed to drive, vote and reproduce.

Offline iamlucky13

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #8 on: 04/16/2008 04:43 PM »
Most people (myself included at times) really want to believe that someone is out to pull one over on them. Sometimes, especially when they don't know many of the details that make such a position untenable, are willing to sacrifice a little bit of reason to support such a view.

The funny thing is, the number of people out there who deny the lunar landings seems to be roughly equal to the number of people who think NASA is hiding images of the alien bases on the far side of the moon. We should get those two groups in a room sometime and see what happens.

Buzz Aldrin definitely said it best. :cool:

Offline Lee Jay

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #9 on: 04/16/2008 04:51 PM »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 16/4/2008  10:21 AM
Specific to the thread title, I think Buzz Aldrin "said" it best:


Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

Offline cpcjr

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RE: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #10 on: 04/16/2008 05:06 PM »
1. Most of the people who fall for this were not born yet such that they have never seen a man walk on the Moon.  An easy answer for why is that we never went in first place.

2. In many cases today public schools concentrate more on teaching kids what think instead of how to think. As a result they have no ability to look at what they see and hear critically. Some one presents them with convincing looking but one sided evidence and they simply have no ability see possibilities other  than what they are being told.

I have seen this in other areas from time to time. For example, I have been engaged in scientific  discussions with some one who holds a view opposite my own where my opponent refers to a paper supporting his position. After finding a copy of the paper in question and looking at it I can see that the same data is constant with my position, but the author had interpreted it by other position.  When I pointed this out,  my opponent would reply but the papers say such and such. Often try as I may the other guy just can not  see past what he is being told the data means to see any other interpretation.

I think this is often the case with with the “We never went to the Moon” crowd. They see someone present some data with one interpretation and do to how they have been educated they simply can not see any other interpretation.

Offline Rusty_Barton

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RE: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #11 on: 04/16/2008 05:10 PM »
Looks like Buzz Aldrin's fist had a rendezvous with the jerks chin. Dr. Rendezvous hasn't lost his touch! If he had insisted, Neil would have let him step on the moon first.  :laugh:

Offline Blackstar

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RE: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #12 on: 04/16/2008 05:14 PM »
Quote
Gene DiGennaro - 16/4/2008  10:04 AM
Is it that it was so long in the past? Or is it that today's public is accustomed to hearing the mainstream media constant negativity regarding human spaceflight which leads them to believe that NASA couldn't do it, but had to fake it?

This is a subset of a much bigger issue.

Lots of people believe lots of illogical things.  How many people believe in angels, for instance?  Or read horoscopes?  Or believe that they have a "lucky shirt"?

This is the one that we are sensitive to, but there is a lot of irrationality in the world.

Offline cpcjr

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #13 on: 04/16/2008 05:14 PM »
Quote
iamlucky13 - 16/4/2008  12:43 PM
The funny thing is, the number of people out there who deny the lunar landings seems to be roughly equal to the number of people who think NASA is hiding images of the alien bases on the far side of the moon. We should get those two groups in a room sometime and see what happens.

Shouldn't be too hard there is probaly a lot of over lap.

By the way in some cases NASA is partly the blame in how they respond or don't respond. Sometimes no responce or a condensending responce just adds fuel to fire.

Offline khallow

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #14 on: 04/16/2008 05:16 PM »
Quote
iamlucky13 - 16/4/2008  9:43 AM

The funny thing is, the number of people out there who deny the lunar landings seems to be roughly equal to the number of people who think NASA is hiding images of the alien bases on the far side of the moon. We should get those two groups in a room sometime and see what happens.

There's probably considerable overlap between the two. After all, it's pretty clear that in order to hide the alien bases, NASA had to fake the moon landing. Having actually attended a UFO conference (purely for the entertainment value), I can assure you that it's surprisingly easy for bizarre ideas to mix and coexist.
Karl Hallowell

Offline William Barton

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #15 on: 04/16/2008 05:17 PM »
I'll say what I always say in these matters: We live in a world where the majority of human beings believe the universe was built and is operated by one or more supernatural beings. We live in a major culture where a large percentage of people not only believe in flying saucers, but believe they have personally seen one. If, in five minutes, I meet someone who assures me they've seen irrefutable proof Buzz Aldrin and Neal Armstrong were carried to the Moon on gossamer wings, I will not be surprised.

Offline brahmanknight

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #16 on: 04/16/2008 05:27 PM »
This is funny.  I asked a similar question on a sports website lately ( How do you feel about human spaceflight ).  But someone broached the "Moon landing was a hoax" question as a joke.  One guy did say he thought it was a hoax seriously.  When asked why, he said he didn't think we had the technology then.  He said we have problems with the technology we have now, so how could we have possibly gotten to the moon?  So I guess that is one reason people think that way.

Link....http://ucf.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=1549&tid=112358529&mid=112358529&sid=908&style=2

Offline kimmern123

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #17 on: 04/16/2008 05:37 PM »
There are quite a few of these people in Norway and I do my best to present evidence that the moon landings in fact DID happen.

I think Gene Cernan and Charlie Duke (in addition to Buzz's punch of course) said it best, in In the Shadow Of the Moon:

"We went to the moon nine times. Why fake it nine times, if we faked it?"  - Charlie Duke
"Truth needs no defence. Nobody... Nobody, can ever take those footsteps I made on the moon away from me" - Gene Cernan.

Why do so many fail to see that it's not the lack of technology that's the problem, but rather the design of today's spacecrafts. However, the BIG problem is a lack of public and national interest in a program to return to the moon and the money to do so quickly.

Offline Andrewwski

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #18 on: 04/16/2008 06:49 PM »
How many people actually believe this?  I'd guess very few.  Because for all they know, the CIA killed JFK, the White House was behind 9/11, Elvis is alive, and Paul McCartney is dead.
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Offline PhalanxTX

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #19 on: 04/16/2008 06:57 PM »
People like conspiracy theories because they like certainty and they like the notion that they've figured something out that the "others" just don't get.  I just think they're amusing.
"The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program, and if we become extinct because we don't have a space program, it'll serve us right!"

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Offline JLF

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #20 on: 04/16/2008 07:04 PM »
A guy named Phil Plait keeps a blog called "Bad Astronomy".  He's got a really good section that refutes the fox show point by point:
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html

He's also got a bunch of links to other sites that refute the hoax.
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/apollohoax.html

Offline HarryM

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #21 on: 04/16/2008 08:06 PM »
To me it seems symptomatic of the trend to believe everything the government does is a waste of money, esp big money programs like Apollo, and all government agencies are run by corrupt fools, retroactively applied.

Offline Patchouli

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #22 on: 04/16/2008 08:41 PM »
Maybe because the US government is so inept and prone to lie or stretch the truth these days people just find it difficult to believe that once they were able to accomplish truly amazing things.

A lot of people think of the TSA and DHS when they think of the government which are very corrupt and inept agencies.

Yes the Bush administration has been very inept and corrupt and I can't think of a single good thing they have accomplished.
VSE might be the only good thing Bush has done if it can ever be gotten back on track.

But it wasn't the first time a bunch of morons ended up in control.

Also the movie Capricorn One didn't help and I think is the origin of the urban legend that Apollo was faked plus the train wreck that is Ares certainly is not helping the situation.

The public doubt on whether we went to the moon will subside when a google lunar prize lander takes a snap shot of the old Apollo landing sites and then most of the conspiracy stuff will end.

On that day a lot of moon hoax conspiracy people will be eating crow.

I so agree with this

The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program, and if we become extinct because we don't have a space program, it'll serve us right!"

-- Larry Niven, quoted by Arthur Clarke in interview at Space.com, 2001

If we don't spend more on affordable access to space we might suffer the same fate as the dinosaurs.

Offline mojo

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RE: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #23 on: 04/16/2008 09:07 PM »
So Patchouli, how many dinosaurs can you fit in a CEV?  If you're selling space exploration as a means to saving the human population, you better make that a pretty big lifeboat.

Seriously, the "we must populate space in order for the human race to survive" crowd sounds a lot to me like the UFO/moon landing hoax bunch.

Offline meiza

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #24 on: 04/16/2008 09:15 PM »
Also, average people just aren't familiar with the vast amount of evidence from Apollo. I wish the awesome videos and photos would be shown much more to the general public, the hardware should tour museums etc... And there are the moon rocks too...

Offline toddbronco2

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #25 on: 04/16/2008 09:42 PM »
Quote
PhalanxTX - 16/4/2008  2:57 PM

People like conspiracy theories because they like certainty and they like the notion that they've figured something out that the "others" just don't get.  I just think they're amusing.

Yeah, I feel like this is the most complete explanation to the original question.  People believe that the moon landing was a hoax because there's something seductive about conspiracy theories.  There's something seductive about thinking that you know a secret of phenomenal importance (even if it is all crap).  It seems like hoax theories plague any worthwhile human accomplishment.  It's a sad fact...It may even be a flaw inherent to humans.

Offline NavySpaceFan

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RE: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #26 on: 04/16/2008 09:54 PM »
Quote
mojo - 16/4/2008  5:07 PM

So Patchouli, how many dinosaurs can you fit in a CEV?  If you're selling space exploration as a means to saving the human population, you better make that a pretty big lifeboat.

Seriously, the "we must populate space in order for the human race to survive" crowd sounds a lot to me like the UFO/moon landing hoax bunch.

That's a bit harsh.  As far as the subject goes, I'll let CAPT John Young speak for me:

"NASA is not about the 'Adventure of Human Space Exploration,' we are in the deadly serious business of saving the species."

<----First launch of DISCOVERY, STS-41D!!!!

Offline E_ E_ H

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #27 on: 04/17/2008 07:30 PM »
I thought you might be interested in this site, http://www.redzero.demon.co.uk/moonhoax which uses very clearly presented science to refute every one of the claims made by the Hoax theorists.

To me, it is an example of ignorance, and a desire by some people to know something the rest of us don't know. It's a very curious trait in people that they want to be in on it, even if "it" is patently not true.

Besides which, these hoax theorists will be utterly debunked when NASA finally gets Constellation off the ground anyway!!!

All IMHO of course...

Edit. Typo
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Offline Hootz

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #28 on: 04/17/2008 07:43 PM »
Well, I think when LRO settles into orbit and they image some Apollo hardware, that should be the end of it. Oh right, I forgot people will claim those have been photo-shopped too ;)

Offline iamlucky13

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #29 on: 04/17/2008 08:06 PM »
Right. The Apollo landers were photoshopped in to hide the alien buildings.

Of course, that assumes LRO is actually going around the moon, which is ridiculous since anyone can see the moon is flat.

Offline Jorge

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #30 on: 04/17/2008 10:30 PM »
Quote
Patchouli - 16/4/2008  3:41 PM

Also the movie Capricorn One didn't help and I think is the origin of the urban legend that Apollo was faked

Incorrect. Bill Kaysing published his first Apollo hoax book in 1974. Capricorn One was released in 1978. The conspiracy theory was widespread by then.
JRF

Offline HIPAR

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RE: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #31 on: 04/17/2008 10:51 PM »
Why did the Russians go along with the scam?

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Offline marsavian

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RE: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #32 on: 04/17/2008 11:04 PM »
So they could get some Moon Rocks  :laugh:

Offline Dana

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #33 on: 04/18/2008 12:30 AM »
Quote
brahmanknight - 16/4/2008  10:27 AM

This is funny.  I asked a similar question on a sports website lately ( How do you feel about human spaceflight ).  But someone broached the "Moon landing was a hoax" question as a joke.  One guy did say he thought it was a hoax seriously.  When asked why, he said he didn't think we had the technology then.  He said we have problems with the technology we have now, so how could we have possibly gotten to the moon?  So I guess that is one reason people think that way.

Link....http://ucf.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=1549&tid=112358529&mid=112358529&sid=908&style=2

They usually bring up the computer-memory thing. Nobody has ever been able to explain to me why such a high level of technology would have been needed when you had two-way communication with Mission Control and three experienced pilots aboard.

Also, many of the technologies they insist we didn't have back then were, in fact, already in use. Otherwise they would have to prove that the existance of jet engines and early nuclear submarines before the advent of Apollo, among other things, must be a hoax, too.

The fact is most of these conspiracy theorists just aren't the brightest crayons in the box.
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Offline Jorge

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #34 on: 04/18/2008 01:09 AM »
Quote
Dana - 17/4/2008  7:30 PM

Quote
brahmanknight - 16/4/2008  10:27 AM

This is funny.  I asked a similar question on a sports website lately ( How do you feel about human spaceflight ).  But someone broached the "Moon landing was a hoax" question as a joke.  One guy did say he thought it was a hoax seriously.  When asked why, he said he didn't think we had the technology then.  He said we have problems with the technology we have now, so how could we have possibly gotten to the moon?  So I guess that is one reason people think that way.

Link....http://ucf.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=1549&tid=112358529&mid=112358529&sid=908&style=2

They usually bring up the computer-memory thing. Nobody has ever been able to explain to me why such a high level of technology would have been needed when you had two-way communication with Mission Control and three experienced pilots aboard.

Indeed. One thing that has struck me during my studies of the Apollo computers is that GNC algorithms really don't require that much memory; it's the user interface that gobbles the resources on modern computers.

Granted, Apollo's computers were *really* memory-limited. The AGC had 36K 15-bit words of fixed memory, 2K of erasable memory while the AEA had 2K 18-bit words of fixed memory, 2K erasable. But the software was written *really* tightly, mostly in assembly language, and MIT and TRW threw a *lot* of clever people at it. You can really accomplish a lot with a little memory if you make every bit count.

Being experienced pilots didn't help the Apollo crews with the computers - they needed a lot of training to operate the primitive user interfaces of the AGC and AEA. (The AEA in particular - the user interface was a keypad with two numerical LED displays to allow the crew to "peek" and "poke" memory locations directly.)

And as you say, MCC played a big role. Due to those same memory limitations, the AGC had no capability for targeting translunar midcourse burns, the LOI burn, or the TEI burn - those were all computed on the ground.

So like you, I really can't see how they can claim it couldn't have been done - especially when the software design documents and the actual source code are all out there on the web so people can see how it *was* done.

Quote
The fact is most of these conspiracy theorists just aren't the brightest crayons in the box.

All too true. Unfortunately, they can talk a good game just enough to fool some people.
JRF

Offline Vacuum.Head

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #35 on: 04/18/2008 01:23 AM »
No need to wait for LRO

http://wms.selene.jaxa.jp/index_e.html

take a look at the Apollo 11 site (click image to enlarge)
disturbed regolith?
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Offline Patchouli

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #36 on: 04/18/2008 02:01 AM »
Quote

Granted, Apollo's computers were *really* memory-limited. The AGC had 36K 15-bit words of fixed memory, 2K of erasable memory while the AEA had 2K 18-bit words of fixed memory, 2K erasable. But the software was written *really* tightly, mostly in assembly language, and MIT and TRW threw a *lot* of clever people at it. You can really accomplish a lot with a little memory if you make every bit count.

A lot of people just don't understand that a lot of memory and clock cycles are used on the GUI and eye candy in modern desktop computers.

Plus you have the overhead of an operating system and Windows is not exactly what one would call efficient code.

The software on the ACG ran as what is termed on the metal no OS.

The Apollo AGC could be best compared to a Pic18Fxxx or AT89C52 in memory and computing power the uCs might actually be a little faster.

Most people usually are surprised by how much one can do with just the 2 to 64K of space in a micro controller such as a complete web server running on a MCS-51 with space left over to control a device  through a web interface.

Offline rsp1202

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #37 on: 04/18/2008 02:02 AM »
Quote
Vacuum.Head - 17/4/2008  6:23 PM

No need to wait for LRO

http://wms.selene.jaxa.jp/index_e.html

take a look at the Apollo 11 site (click image to enlarge)
disturbed regolith?


Fascinating as it is, this photo won't sell. LRO should image Eagle's descent stage, maybe even the flag, but unless it also includes footprints, the disbelievers will still criticize. By then, hopefully, the media will ignore them.

Offline Vacuum.Head

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #38 on: 04/18/2008 02:37 AM »
(Warning Wikifact) 4.2 m Decent stage LM
Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter Camera
0.5 metres/pixel
http://www.msss.com/lro/lroc/index.html
so ~ 8x8 pixels Hmmm!
and the flag's gonna be tricky...

However one hears rumours that one of the lunar X prize missions is planned to visit the site.
If I were in charge I'd slap an injunction.
Hiistorical interest and etc.
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Offline j2_

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #39 on: 04/18/2008 03:23 AM »
Quote
Andrewwski - 16/4/2008  11:49 AM

How many people actually believe this?  I'd guess very few.  Because for all they know, the CIA killed JFK, the White House was behind 9/11, Elvis is alive, and Paul McCartney is dead.

There is scientific proof that Elvis is dead, Paul McCartney is still alive, and that NASA did indeed land on the moon 6 times...

EDIT: Thanks for the correction, Jorge.

Offline Jorge

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #40 on: 04/18/2008 03:40 AM »
Quote
j2_ - 17/4/2008  10:23 PM

Quote
Andrewwski - 16/4/2008  11:49 AM

How many people actually believe this?  I'd guess very few.  Because for all they know, the CIA killed JFK, the White House was behind 9/11, Elvis is alive, and Paul McCartney is dead.

There is scientific proof that Elvis is dead, Paul McCartney is still alive, and that NASA did indeed land on the moon 9 times...


Went to cislunar space nine times, anyway.

There were only six landings (11, 12, 14-17). 8, 10, and 13 didn't land - two by design...
JRF

Offline Dana

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #41 on: 04/18/2008 03:54 AM »
Quote
Jorge - 17/4/2008  6:09 PM



Being experienced pilots didn't help the Apollo crews with the computers - they needed a lot of training to operate the primitive user interfaces of the AGC and AEA. (The AEA in particular - the user interface was a keypad with two numerical LED displays to allow the crew to "peek" and "poke" memory locations directly.)


What I meant by bringing up the pilots was, a lot of these poor people think you couldn't LAND-actually fly the landing-without some sort of mega-powered computer doing every little task. Well, they did have mega-powered computers-inside the respective experienced noggins of Neil Armstrong, Pete Conrad, Alan Shepard, Dave Scott, John Young and Gene Cernan. Makes you wonder how they think helicopters and nighttime jet carrier traps could have worked all those years before that without advanced computer guidance. Same thing with the rendezvous. I guess they think aerial refueling and formation flight on instruments must be impossible, too.

I really think it's because these fools can't do anything the least bit complex themselves without a computer these days, so they think everybody else can't, either.
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Offline Avron

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #42 on: 04/18/2008 03:54 AM »
Quote
j2_ - 17/4/2008  11:23 PM

Quote
Andrewwski - 16/4/2008  11:49 AM

How many people actually believe this?  I'd guess very few.  Because for all they know, the CIA killed JFK, the White House was behind 9/11, Elvis is alive, and Paul McCartney is dead.

There is scientific proof that Elvis is dead, Paul McCartney is still alive, and that NASA did indeed land on the moon 9 times...


And that the CIA did not kill JFK  .

 however there are two key facts that cannot be overlooked or controlled.
1) the Russians did not say that the USA had faked the landing
2) Anyone on earth could have picked up the radio/TV signals and their source ( i.e. the moon)
and again no-one called it a fake.

never mind the rocks etc

(However, we also need to look for facts before we blow everything off as conspiracy.. sometimes its part of an intensional diversion. We can also blow things off because we believe we understand something, but miss the context, or assume something that is just plain wrong but don't know any better..)

Offline MB123

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RE: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #43 on: 04/18/2008 06:01 AM »

It is a belief in some religions that man can't leave the Earth


Offline tesheiner

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #44 on: 04/18/2008 08:49 AM »
Quote
Jorge - 18/4/2008  3:09 AM
Granted, Apollo's computers were *really* memory-limited. The AGC had 36K 15-bit words of fixed memory, 2K of erasable memory while the AEA had 2K 18-bit words of fixed memory, 2K erasable. But the software was written *really* tightly, mostly in assembly language, and MIT and TRW threw a *lot* of clever people at it. You can really accomplish a lot with a little memory if you make every bit count.

The roll after lift-off is an example.
http://yarchive.net/space/apollo/takeoff_roll.html

Offline PMN1

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RE: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #45 on: 04/18/2008 12:44 PM »
Quote
HIPAR - 17/4/2008  5:51 PM

Why did the Russians go along with the scam?

---  CHAS

That's a question i've noticed gets ignored when i've asked people who suggest it was a hoax.

Offline Gene DiGennaro

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #46 on: 04/18/2008 01:16 PM »
The response I have gotten from some young people is that large government agencies can never do anything right. They feel that NASA bungled it back it the 60s and had to fake it to keep the national prestige.

Think of the thousands of people who worked on  Apollo. Could they all keep such a deep secret? Like others have said, the Soviets would have tried like hell to uncover ANY fraud in the Apollo program.

Offline rsp1202

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #47 on: 04/18/2008 01:40 PM »
Quote
Vacuum.Head - 17/4/2008  7:37 PM

(Warning Wikifact) 4.2 m Decent stage LM
Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter Camera
0.5 metres/pixel
http://www.msss.com/lro/lroc/index.html
so ~ 8x8 pixels Hmmm!
and the flag's gonna be tricky...

LRO should resolve somewhat better than MRO due to lower orbit and no atmosphere, and MRO can see:
http://www.planetary.org/news/2006/1205_Mars_Reconnaissance_Orbiters_HiRISE.html

Offline Svetoslav

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #48 on: 04/18/2008 02:05 PM »
Because nobody has been there since 1972. The big question should be: "Why don't we visit the Moon today?"

Offline DaveJ576

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RE: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #49 on: 04/18/2008 02:10 PM »
One of my favorite websites, www.clavius.org absolutely demolishes the moon hoax theory. Anyone who brings up this silly idea I just direct to Clavius and that ends it right there.

'Nuff said.

"We have a pitch and a roll program and man this baby is really going!"

Offline Svetoslav

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #50 on: 04/18/2008 02:17 PM »
I have several of the articles of Phil Plait translated into Bulgarian. Actually, when you give them all that proof they just say: "Probably the LM was flown unmanned", "The rocks have been brought back in a similar way the Russian did".

What about this image?
http://www.tass-survey.org/richmond/answers/lunar_pictures/h_apollo_site_02.jpg

Offline pippin

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #51 on: 04/18/2008 02:20 PM »
Quote
Gene DiGennaro - 18/4/2008  3:16 PM
The response I have gotten from some young people is that large government agencies can never do anything right.

Well, least of all a large scale cover up as would be needed for a fake moon landing conspiracy...
If there's ONE thing I believe govs are really bad at then it's long term cover ups, too much personal interest involved.

Offline kimmern123

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #52 on: 04/18/2008 02:33 PM »
Quote
rsp1202 - 18/4/2008  3:40 PM

Quote
Vacuum.Head - 17/4/2008  7:37 PM

(Warning Wikifact) 4.2 m Decent stage LM
Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter Camera
0.5 metres/pixel
http://www.msss.com/lro/lroc/index.html
so ~ 8x8 pixels Hmmm!
and the flag's gonna be tricky...

LRO should resolve somewhat better than MRO due to lower orbit and no atmosphere, and MRO can see:
http://www.planetary.org/news/2006/1205_Mars_Reconnaissance_Orbiters_HiRISE.html

The sad thing is that the most die-hard hoax believers will most likely just say the images are photoshopped and another proof of a government conspiracy.

What troubles me the most, is the fact that I've heard of high school teachers showing the Fox-"documentary" in Science-classes without presenting evidence that contradicts the hoax.

Offline HIPAR

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RE: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #53 on: 04/18/2008 02:52 PM »
I have a picture with Apollo 17 behind me.  Oh, that's a miniature at the Cape 'back lot'. I was there when it lit up the night sky and thundered skyward.  Now I'm thinking this was all some kind of optical illusion.  How did they make the ground shake?  Oh that's easy .. just use some sort of humongous subwoofer like you hear when some yahoo pulls up next to you at the red light.  Oh all those virtuous people who worked on the project .. everyone of them has zero credibility because they were on the Government dole and couldn't have made it in the 'real world'.  The Russians?  Every one has his price.

I always suggest to the naysayers that faking this kind of thing is more difficult than actually doing it.

---  CHAS

Offline cpcjr

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #54 on: 04/18/2008 02:53 PM »
Quote
Svetoslav - 18/4/2008  10:17 AM

I have several of the articles of Phil Plait translated into Bulgarian. Actually, when you give them all that proof they just say: "Probably the LM was flown unmanned", "The rocks have been brought back in a similar way the Russian did".

If that's the case then why could they not just send the guys along with it and do it for real?

I'd like to see their answer to that one. Probably have something to do with radiation or some such thing.


Offline JSC Phil

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #55 on: 04/18/2008 02:55 PM »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 16/4/2008  11:21 AM

It's the dark and dumb side of human nature, with a large dose of ignorance and lack of intelligence.

Same as those idiots that can't comprehend that 9/11 was as it happened, so fabricate a conspiracy as a form of self delusion, without realizing how incredibly insulting it is to the brave men and women that had to deal with the consequences of the tragedy, and those lost as a result.

Specific to the thread title, I think Buzz Aldrin "said" it best:


Could not of said it better myself.

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RE: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #56 on: 04/18/2008 03:02 PM »
This is a philosophical question lacking a good answer. Why do many people believe in God? Why don't many others? People have beliefs based on their (always) limited information processed in their (always) limited brain. Even the very same information can lead to vastly different beliefs. Its human nature. The beauty of science is an established system to prove or disprove something. But this system by itself has limitations some people don't accept, how well founded the system may be to many other people. The prove for many is never enough for all. If you don't accept logic, math, science etc. as a basic framework, everything is possible. And if you accept them, you can never be 100% sure the framework is correct. You never know for sure. Philosophical? Such is life.

Analyst

Offline Svetoslav

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #57 on: 04/18/2008 03:05 PM »
Quote
cpcjr - 18/4/2008  5:53 PM

Quote
Svetoslav - 18/4/2008  10:17 AM

I have several of the articles of Phil Plait translated into Bulgarian. Actually, when you give them all that proof they just say: "Probably the LM was flown unmanned", "The rocks have been brought back in a similar way the Russian did".
If that's the case then why could they not just send the guys along with it and do it for real?

Well, I live in a country which was in the former Eastern block. Yes, there are a lot of people here who still believe that Russians never had a Moon program because it's dangerous, because of the radiation and so on.
Yes, there are a lot of people who come to me and say: "OK, guy, listen to what I'll tell ya. Russians sent man in space, they built a whole bunch of space bases, they even built their own space shuttle. The only thing they failed in is building a rocket capable of sending men to the Moon. Who should I believe that NASA succeeded?"

Offline William Barton

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #58 on: 04/18/2008 03:30 PM »
Quote
Svetoslav - 18/4/2008  10:05 AM

Because nobody has been there since 1972. The big question should be: "Why don't we visit the Moon today?"

LGMs gave us a parking ticket and we are still paying off the fine.

Offline haywoodfloyd

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #59 on: 04/18/2008 03:39 PM »
Actually I don't believe that Apollo Moon Landing hoaxers (a real word?) actually exist.
I think it's a hoax.
They cannot prove to me that they actually exist.
They try but I don't believe them.


Offline sbt

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #60 on: 04/18/2008 11:12 PM »
I would'nt discount the impact of a constant diet of fiction in all medias where, with the usual exception of the police, the only time a government organisation appears is as a malevolent organisation engaged in conspiracy. People may know logically that it is fiction[1] but it prepares people to think in the same way.

I always boggle at the mindset that assumes that NASA is a US government body and therefore automatically incompetent and therefore had to fake the moon missions rather than do it for real yet remarkably competent at keeping that fact under wraps and everybody involved silent. Competent or Incompetent - which is it folks?

Rick

[1]Although people may forget this. I discovered not that many years ago that my parents were convinced that the UK got to Mach 1 fist and the secret was to reverse the direction of the controls once above that magic number. This was due to the film 'The Sound Barrier'. Equally I'm sure many younger people believe First Officer Murdoch of the Titanic shot people and the US captured U-571 and the first Naval Enigma machine in allied hands.
I am not interested in your political point scoring, Ad Hominem attacks, personal obsessions and vendettas. - No matter how cute and clever you may think your comments are.

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #61 on: 04/18/2008 11:20 PM »

Quote
haywoodfloyd - 19/4/2008 3:39 AM Actually I don't believe that Apollo Moon Landing hoaxers (a real word?) actually exist. I think it's a hoax. They cannot prove to me that they actually exist. They try but I don't believe them.

You may be kidding right now, but they exist. Trust me on this. Even here in New Zealand I get them all the time when I do public lectures on Space current affairs or history. On two occasions I have nearly come to blows with people. Now, I'm trying to explain calmly and rationally that they are wrong, but the agitators just get angrier and angrier. There was a reasonably famous case here in 2007 of a high-school teacher being fired for constantly barraging her students with conspiracy theories -- she was a Holocaust Denier, Moonlanding Hoaxer, 911 denier etc and was ranting on about how the invasion of Iraq would be stitched up with 'planted' WMDs by those 'evil Americans'. Of course, that didn't happen...

Link(s) to story about her: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.cfm?c_id=337&objectid=10424528

      http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/02/teaching_conspiracies.html                           

One of this nut's poor students approached my wife and I at a public event for help. I provided him with my standard 'Moon Hoax' debunking fact sheets -- some of the info culled from Phil Plait's 'Bad Astronomy' -- and my wife's school e-mail address (she's a school librarian) and told him to extend my offer of a lecture and/or debate to this lady. Days later, he e-mailed us about how she'd literally thrown the material back in his face and hissed at him to sit down!!

One of these days, I really hope I don't lose it with these baboons and hit them. If I ever meet the idiots who produced that Fox Documentary, I'll punch them in the gut for the inconvenience and stress they've caused me. I've resisted talking about until now, because it's quite stressful to me. People aren't being taught history or science, anymore. They think science is now all about home computers and Global Warming.

However, I'm learning to deal with it and let it go... A little. No, really I am... ;)

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Offline dsky

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #62 on: 04/18/2008 11:25 PM »
See this scenario (really happened, unfortunately).

Moon hoax documentary film is aired on TV. The film features a German "professor" who claims he analyzed the pictures and ... you know the rest.

The documentary is interrupted twice. First to show a recorded interview with astronaut, questioned on the general topic, but never on any of the issues discussed in the film. Second to show another recorded interview with scientist (important one) again questioned likewise without any direct reference, or in reply, to the statements in the film. This on prime tv evening time!

The bottom line: both interviewers never had a real chance to address the film about the hoax theory and they made a miserable appearance, of course in subtle support of the theory.

Now, how much press behavior is relevant in propagating the hoax theory? Many web sites confutes the theories, but was there any prime time tv show that says "it was not a hoax"? Diseducation, disinformation, ignorance are a serious responsibility of the sickness of big show media. I know aerospace journalists that say that this stuff helps sells "space" the same. No. This just helps them keep their jobs.

Can we do anything about this? Yes. If you are really convinced about the evilness of all this, you shouldn't waste time on this forum but volunteer and go to schools, any grade, and other public gatherings, to tell young people about the greatest adventure of the 20th century, about the amazing feat of men and technology, and also about the unique historical perspective. That will help do the job.

In closing another example about the seriousness of this. A friend of mine is an airline pilot, physicist, rocket modeler and hobby programmer, not really a stupid person. Well, he thinks that only the first, and perhaps the second, landing was faked for cold war reasons. He sees strange things in the shadows in the pictures, etc. So, even educated people can spread the virus. Beware of them.


Why be a rocket scientist, when you can be a spacecraft engineer?

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #63 on: 04/19/2008 04:35 PM »
The people who believe it was a hoax are in the minority, but this minority are very vocal.

The press are happy to go along with the minority as it sells more papers

Offline Orbiter

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #64 on: 04/19/2008 04:41 PM »
Few Reasons why they think its fake.
1) They have no scientific background at all, so they belive its fake without knowing the facts.
2) They don't ever listen to reason
3) If its a Historical thing (9/11, Holocost, ect) They belive its fake.
4) They have nothing better to do.
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Offline hop

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #65 on: 04/19/2008 10:18 PM »
Quote
Orbiter - 19/4/2008  9:41 AM

Few Reasons why they think its fake.
1) They have no scientific background at all, so they belive its fake without knowing the facts.
2) They don't ever listen to reason
3) If its a Historical thing (9/11, Holocost, ect) They belive its fake.
4) They have nothing better to do.
I suspect the majority of people who say they think it might be faked haven't actually thought about it much. They just saw some video or book that strung together some plausible sounding (if you don't know the details) objections to the official story, and some supposed experts backing them up. Combine that with an existing disposition to reject the establishment, and it's not hard to think "wow there's something really fishy there, maybe they are fake"

The standard conspiracy theory tactic plays into this. They don't usually suggest any consistent alternative, they just make objections to obscure technical details the general public aren't in a position to evaluate. This same tactic is used by conspiracy theorists, denialism, and woo of all flavors.

Unfortunately, this sort of casual acceptance helps these views establish themselves in popular culture.

Offline Oersted

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #66 on: 04/19/2008 11:38 PM »
What nobody in this thread has mentioned is, I think, the most important factor in the perpetuation of the moon hoax theories. It simply is economically advantageous to some people.

Very few things happen in this world without making economical sense, one way or the other. The moon hoax theories definitely make sense. Economic sense, that is. Lots of people stake out a career on continuing the myth, retelling it, selling books about it, appearing in dubious revelatory TV documentaries about it, etc, etc. There is a whole sub-economy involved in the moon hoax industry which tricks money out of gullible people.

I remember being in Argentina in the mid-nineties. Suddenly one day all the street vendor kiosks were overflowing with magazines accompanied by a VHS cassette telling the story of the autopsy of an alien that had crashed to Earth in Roswell. I wrote my parents in Europe about it, and they could tell me that the same magazines were appearing in Europe as well. Twenty dollars or so for the mag and the video tape.

Of course the video tape was debunked later on. Among other things the supposed 1948 movie clip had a twisty telephone cord in the background, even though those only appeared later, in the fifties. But the movie and the story in the mag were only debunked a good while after they had sold millions of copies all over the world...

The moon hoax perpetuation is part of a sorry industry that earns LOTS of money for some people who couldn't care less about the veracity of their products, just like the good old snake-oil salesmen of the past. The hoax makes economic sense, and that's the main reason why it will continue forever.

Offline PMN1

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RE: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #67 on: 04/19/2008 11:52 PM »
Because so many people are stupid and in the words of one of the islamic bombers on trial here in the Uk for the Glasgow airport attacks 'people only care what happens in Coronation Street'.

Offline Iren

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #68 on: 04/20/2008 06:56 PM »
They find this way useful to sell books.

Offline cpcjr

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #69 on: 04/23/2008 02:48 PM »
Quote
Oersted - 19/4/2008  7:38 PM

What nobody in this thread has mentioned is, I think, the most important factor in the perpetuation of the moon hoax theories. It simply is economically advantageous to some people.

Very few things happen in this world without making economical sense, one way or the other. The moon hoax theories definitely make sense. Economic sense, that is. Lots of people stake out a career on continuing the myth, retelling it, selling books about it, appearing in dubious revelatory TV documentaries about it, etc, etc. There is a whole sub-economy involved in the moon hoax industry which tricks money out of gullible people.

That raises an important question. Do the any of the people who are making these claims 1st hand actually believe it? If not, then it's a total con job, and not just bad scolarship.

Quote
The moon hoax perpetuation is part of a sorry industry that earns LOTS of money for some people who couldn't care less about the veracity of their products, just like the good old snake-oil salesmen of the past. The hoax makes economic sense, and that's the main reason why it will continue forever.

Well maybe at least until someone revisits one of the landing sites. Though the perps could just claim that was a hoax too.

Offline pr1268

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #70 on: 04/23/2008 03:44 PM »
Quote
Rusty_Barton - 16/4/2008  11:40 AM
Just watch Jay Leno's "Jaywalking", where he asks simple questions of the man on the street. The answers are embarrassing. It's scary that people like this are allowed to drive, vote and reproduce.

Well, in Leno's defense, anyone giving comments that halfway resembled an intelligent, thoughtful response would be boring to television viewers.  And besides, the production costs of these Tonight Show segments are unusually low, especially when it's so easy to find people who'll give idiotic answers and keep a straight face doing so.

Feel free to interpret my above comments as you please (i.e. the appalling state of anti-intellectualism in America these days).

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Chris_Bergman - 16/4/2008 11:21 AM
Specific to the thread title, I think Buzz Aldrin "said" it best

Ahhh, no wonder you put scare quotes around "said"...  Just curious, when did that altercation happen?

Just my $0.02: That "reporter" deserved what he got for so flagrantly getting in Aldrin's face and calling him names like that.

Edit: it's SCARE quotes, not square quotes. LOL @ self
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Offline marsavian

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #71 on: 04/23/2008 03:52 PM »
Buzz telling it like it was ;)


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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #72 on: 04/25/2008 08:35 AM »
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Rusty_Barton - 16/4/2008  5:40 PM

Just watch Jay Leno's "Jaywalking", where he asks simple questions of the man on the street. The answers are embarrassing. It's scary that people like this are allowed to drive, vote and reproduce.


Humans have pretty much defeated the aspect of evolution. And we're starting to pay the price.
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Offline janmb

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #73 on: 04/25/2008 08:57 AM »
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William Barton - 16/4/2008  6:17 PM
I'll say what I always say in these matters: We live in a world where the majority of human beings believe the universe was built and is operated by one or more supernatural beings.

Fortunately, I doubt this is really the case.

A majority may be registered as religious, but a lot less actually believe.
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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #74 on: 04/25/2008 09:03 AM »
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janmb - 25/4/2008  10:57 AM

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William Barton - 16/4/2008  6:17 PM
I'll say what I always say in these matters: We live in a world where the majority of human beings believe the universe was built and is operated by one or more supernatural beings.

Fortunately, I doubt this is really the case.

A majority may be registered as religious, but a lot less actually believe.

We shouldn't start talking about religion. Always gets muddy pretty fast.

Analyst

Offline janmb

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #75 on: 04/25/2008 09:27 AM »
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Jorge - 18/4/2008  2:09 AM

Granted, Apollo's computers were *really* memory-limited. The AGC had 36K 15-bit words of fixed memory, 2K of erasable memory while the AEA had 2K 18-bit words of fixed memory, 2K erasable. But the software was written *really* tightly, mostly in assembly language, and MIT and TRW threw a *lot* of clever people at it. You can really accomplish a lot with a little memory if you make every bit count.

True.

In addition to this, most people have a very inflated idea of the complexity of the tasks handled by the apollo computers.

Navigating in space, which may sound like a huge, impressive task to a layman, isn't necessarily a very computer heavy problem. While the calculations may be heavy, the data you are working on are very definite indeed. There are only so many positions and kinetics that apply to this problem.
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Offline Dana

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #76 on: 04/25/2008 10:57 AM »
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janmb - 25/4/2008  2:27 AM

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Jorge - 18/4/2008  2:09 AM

Granted, Apollo's computers were *really* memory-limited. The AGC had 36K 15-bit words of fixed memory, 2K of erasable memory while the AEA had 2K 18-bit words of fixed memory, 2K erasable. But the software was written *really* tightly, mostly in assembly language, and MIT and TRW threw a *lot* of clever people at it. You can really accomplish a lot with a little memory if you make every bit count.

True.

In addition to this, most people have a very inflated idea of the complexity of the tasks handled by the apollo computers.

Navigating in space, which may sound like a huge, impressive task to a layman, isn't necessarily a very computer heavy problem. While the calculations may be heavy, the data you are working on are very definite indeed. There are only so many positions and kinetics that apply to this problem.

As I have always suspected. I mean, isn't it basically a ballistics computation, rather like what they had been doing with artillery and naval gunnery for decades, with the capability of adjustment in flight?
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Offline William Barton

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #77 on: 04/25/2008 11:11 AM »
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Analyst - 25/4/2008  5:03 AM

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janmb - 25/4/2008  10:57 AM

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William Barton - 16/4/2008  6:17 PM
I'll say what I always say in these matters: We live in a world where the majority of human beings believe the universe was built and is operated by one or more supernatural beings.

Fortunately, I doubt this is really the case.

A majority may be registered as religious, but a lot less actually believe.

We shouldn't start talking about religion. Always gets muddy pretty fast.

Analyst

Or muddy from the start. And when you start talking about what people really believe, as opposed to what they say they believe, the mud turns to sedimentary rock. That's one of the reasons my original post also mentioned UFOs, so it would not be perceived an attack on organised religion. I wouldn't want to try to speculate about what people really believe, underneath their foil hats.

Offline khallow

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #78 on: 04/25/2008 09:57 PM »
Thinking about it some more, I get the feeling that the Moon hoax like many conspiracy theories gives the believer both a sense of power and something to do. First, they "know" something the rest of humanity doesn't. Second, it allows them to play a self-perceived important role. They are the keeper of great secrets or (as in the case of the idiot accosting Buzz Adrin) the seeker after truth. They are being brave and virtuous in the face of the no doubt enormous government conspiracy of evil. That sort of thing. The things you can imagine are far in excess of the things you could do, which usually in turn is much better than what you actually do. So there's this huge difference between the fantasy world that you want, and the burger-flipping reality. I think a lot of people crack because of it and fail to distinguish between the two.
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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #79 on: 04/25/2008 10:50 PM »
Karl, you've hit a bullseye, friend.
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Offline cpcjr

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #80 on: 04/26/2008 12:53 AM »
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Analyst - 25/4/2008  5:03 AM

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janmb - 25/4/2008  10:57 AM

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William Barton - 16/4/2008  6:17 PM
I'll say what I always say in these matters: We live in a world where the majority of human beings believe the universe was built and is operated by one or more supernatural beings.

Fortunately, I doubt this is really the case.

A majority may be registered as religious, but a lot less actually believe.

We shouldn't start talking about religion. Always gets muddy pretty fast.

Analyst


How true Analyst.

When the original post was made, I thought of commenting but decided not to. Not only because things can get muddy quite fast but also this not the place for it. The subject of the entire forum is space flight, not religion and not the nature and origin of the universe.

By the way, why do atheists see a need to insult theists even when the topic has nothing to do with religion?  I’ve seen this in other places and it’s rather common.


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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #81 on: 05/19/2008 01:37 PM »
It's gets really tiring trying to explain to "None believers"...I always say that if it was faked, then the images would surely look like the best special effects (Movies like 2001 etc.,) of the period.   They do not!....
I feel sorry for these people anyway, They're missing out on the "Awe" factor when looking at the amazing things the Apollo program achieved.
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Offline Gene DiGennaro

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #82 on: 05/19/2008 07:23 PM »
Klaatu, That's a good answer. I've often thought that "faked" moon landing motion picture footage could only look as good as the best of Hollywood's special effects circa 1969. "2001" represented the the epitome of the era's special effects and while convincing, they do not capture the subtle things like dust clouds in a vacuum.

Karl, good answer too!

Offline Gene DiGennaro

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #83 on: 05/19/2008 07:23 PM »
Oh by the way, welcome to NSF Klaatu!

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #84 on: 05/20/2008 09:19 AM »
Many thanks Gene...I've been a huge fan of Space Exploration (Especially the Apollo era) for as far back as I can remember...I'm really glad I found this site.
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Offline Hoonte

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #85 on: 05/20/2008 12:46 PM »
I really don't see why to convince the hoax believers. I think the average hoax believer will not change their minds what ever I say. And does it really matter.. I know wat is true, trying to convince somebody doesn't make it any more true. So if somebody believes it is fake. fine.. If he wants to 'spread the word', fine..

Offline hop

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #86 on: 05/20/2008 08:30 PM »
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Hoonte - 20/5/2008  5:46 AM

I really don't see why to convince the hoax believers. I think the average hoax believer will not change their minds what ever I say. And does it really matter.. I know wat is true, trying to convince somebody doesn't make it any more true. So if somebody believes it is fake. fine.. If he wants to 'spread the word', fine..
There's no point in trying to sway the hardcore kooks. However, I don't think the average hoax believer is a hardcore kook. Most of them are just people who saw a "documentary" or website, were predisposed to accept it by their personal beliefs, and didn't bother looking at other sources of evidence.

The moon hoax itself may be relatively harmless, but there is very good reason to promote critical thinking in general. If you are swayed by the conspiracy thinking and tricks of the "moon hoax" it's only a small step to holocaust denial, "9/11 truth" etc, and some of those things are extremely dangerous.

If no one stands up for rationalism and critical thinking, these things get accepted into popular mythology and do much more damage than a few hardcore nutcases would.

Offline kschachn

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #87 on: 05/21/2008 04:53 PM »
Another aspect is the massive amount of distrust and suspicion it requires to believe it was a hoax. All of which is completely unwarranted by this, or most governments. If you truly believe it was faked then you might as well be suspicious of nearly everything else the government tells you. For all its failings, and as much as people like to grouse about the US government “lying” about this or that, there’s very little evidence to support such comments.

How these people function in life with such paranoia is beyond me. If I thought that such lies were “out there” I doubt I could make it through the day.

Offline cabbage

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #88 on: 05/21/2008 05:09 PM »
I think people are remarkably good at living with inconsistencies (and this can be a real asset, not just a liability) so I think you can believe that the government are telling you the truth when that is convenient for you, and believe they are lieing when it makes you feel better to know the "secret truth".

Offline kneecaps

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #89 on: 05/21/2008 07:39 PM »
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Jorge - 18/4/2008  1:09 AM
Granted, Apollo's computers were *really* memory-limited. The AGC had 36K 15-bit words of fixed memory, 2K of erasable memory while the AEA had 2K 18-bit words of fixed memory, 2K erasable. But the software was written *really* tightly, mostly in assembly language, and MIT and TRW threw a *lot* of clever people at it. You can really accomplish a lot with a little memory if you make every bit count.

The flight software was in my opinion almost a work of art. The depth and breath of function that was implemented in the programs is fantastic. The 'Art' of programming has been lost in today's age of inexpensive storage.

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Being experienced pilots didn't help the Apollo crews with the computers - they needed a lot of training to operate the primitive user interfaces of the AGC and AEA. (The AEA in particular - the user interface was a keypad with two numerical LED displays to allow the crew to "peek" and "poke" memory locations directly.)

Even so, the AGC and AEA were some of the earliest examples (maybe the first?) of machines where you could initiate jobs without the need for punch cards and other such things.

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And as you say, MCC played a big role. Due to those same memory limitations, the AGC had no capability for targeting translunar midcourse burns, the LOI burn, or the TEI burn - those were all computed on the ground.

Even with MCC assistance, the AGC was still 'prime' for terminal phase rendezvous operations!

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So like you, I really can't see how they can claim it couldn't have been done - especially when the software design documents and the actual source code are all out there on the web so people can see how it *was* done.

I've been studying the flight software for nearly 4 years and it still impresses me :) Problem is the 'moon hoaxers' wouldn't understand it!

Pete

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Offline veedriver22

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #90 on: 05/21/2008 08:03 PM »
I have crossed paths with some 9/11 truthers.   Its amazing how they become experts in something they have no experience with.   In one case they indicated how strong the towers were and that the plane crash was just a pinprick.   I am not sure what videos he looked at, but what I saw was the buildings got slammed. By an aircraft that was going very fast,  and with wingtips nearly as wide as the building itself.   It slammed so hard that fire came billowing out the other side of the building.  

 There are also claims that the fact that there is molten steel in the pit somehow proves that controlled demolitions were used.  Holy cow,   this was an event that has never happened before. Who’s to say what should or should not have happened.   A building this size has never come down like this before.

 The controlled demolition theory really gets me going.
That has so many holes in it that you would think it would be beyond anyones belief.
I guess you get a big clue when the alternate theories being proposed are much more outlandish that the “Government Official Story” than they are questioning.

Offline RedRover

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RE: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #91 on: 05/21/2008 08:53 PM »
Apollo 13 failed because it was attacked by aliens who didn't like the fact that this mission was carrying and atom bomb to the moon... :)

Offline gospacex

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #92 on: 05/21/2008 10:00 PM »
Quote
kneecaps - 21/5/2008  2:39 PM
Quote
Jorge - 18/4/2008  1:09 AM
Granted, Apollo's computers were *really* memory-limited. The AGC had 36K 15-bit words of fixed memory, 2K of erasable memory while the AEA had 2K 18-bit words of fixed memory, 2K erasable. But the software was written *really* tightly, mostly in assembly language, and MIT and TRW threw a *lot* of clever people at it. You can really accomplish a lot with a little memory if you make every bit count.

The flight software was in my opinion almost a work of art. The depth and breath of function that was implemented in the programs is fantastic. The 'Art' of programming has been lost in today's age of inexpensive storage.

Not entirely. http://busybox.net/ - they still cram programs into 1-2 kbytes instead of 1-2..20..200.. Mbytes. :)

Offline ckiki lwai

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #93 on: 05/21/2008 10:42 PM »
If I meet people in real life who believe it's a hoax, I just tell them that the hardest/most costly part of the journey was building such a big rocket, and since a lot of people have seen it lift off with their own eyes, it can't be a hoax.

As to the question why so many people believe it's a hoax, I think it's difficult for a lot of people to grasp the fact that you can actually build a machine, put some humans in it, send them to another world and bring them back.
Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Offline Spacenick

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #94 on: 05/21/2008 11:02 PM »
For every fact, that is hard to grasp there are people who will call it a hoax. Be it something too cruel to grasp like the Holocaust or 9/11  or something too complexx to understand for many people like evolution or Apollo.
This will probably never change as it seems to be part of human nature, it's an extreme and misguided form of doubt, one of the human features that was so important in building the foundation of modern society. It's a pity those people calling things like Apollo a hoax don't doubt their own fellow while doubting all the rest.

Offline Danny Dot

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RE: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #95 on: 05/24/2008 02:49 PM »
I have never heard anyone say how NASA could have faked the video coming back from the moon.  I do think it is possible NASA took and released a couple of still photos in a studio -- with the claim they came from the moon.

My summary is this.  It would have been more difficult to fake the landings that it was to actually make the landings.

Danny Deger

Offline dougkeenan

RE: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #96 on: 05/24/2008 03:18 PM »
"NASA took and released a couple of still photos in a studio -- with the claim they came from the moon."

Which still photos specifically?  That's quite a claim.

Offline Launch Fan

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #97 on: 05/29/2008 07:15 PM »


My summary is this.  It would have been more difficult to fake the landings that it was to actually make the landings.



I think this is the most important point that is missed by the hoaxers.

Offline Nate Black

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #98 on: 07/08/2008 05:09 PM »
I think that not seeing the first images of Neil and Buzz jumping around on the moon might be a part of the answer, at least for us young ones. Ask a kid on the street - "Have you seen the moon-landing on TV?", most of them will probably say no. And thus, not growing up around those kind of things might scare them, and they don't really want to trust what they see, they think of how easy it is to fake footage today, with the internet and all. Looking at the videos, it does look like something a teenager might be able to fake with his home computer.

Well, at least that's what I think. And being 19, I think I can answer for most of us young ones.

Offline Gravity Ray

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #99 on: 07/08/2008 08:57 PM »
A person is smart... People are stupid.

A group of people tend to make their own reality, which may or may not have anything to do with THE reality.

Additionally our government lies to us so often that sometimes it is truly is hard to judge if you are being lied to in this instance or not?!? Unfortunately our own government has done so many horrible things that I am not surprised that people thing they also lied about the moon landings.

Finally I think these people actually enjoy that they frustrate smarter people by saying something stupid. The classic example of this is that dude that got punched by Buzz in that video at beginning of this thread. By the way he is lucky he didn’t call me a liar and a coward or it would not have been just a punch, but a proper ass kicking.

So ignore ignorance and you will be the happier for it.

Offline CessnaDriver

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #100 on: 07/09/2008 12:08 AM »
The 'Art' of programming has been lost in today's age of inexpensive storage.


Digressing a bit,
I think any of us old school video gamers can attest to that.
It forces creativity when constrained sometimes.

Offline Avron

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #101 on: 07/09/2008 01:41 AM »


My summary is this.  It would have been more difficult to fake the landings that it was to actually make the landings.



I think this is the most important point that is missed by the hoaxers.


That and the Fact the Other player, the USSR did not call foul..

But we forget that whole conspiracy theory, has mad a lot of money for some.. and we know that money drives a lot of things in our society..

Offline rfoshaug

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #102 on: 07/09/2008 10:07 AM »
From time to time, I hear people claim that the moon landings were hoaxed, because how could we have the technology to do it in 1969-1972 and not have that capability now, and why does it take so much time and money to re-invent that lost capability. This must mean that the landings were fake.


I usually answer by comparing Apollo to Concorde. How can it be that we from the 1970's to early 2000's had the capability of transporting 100 passengers over the Atlantic at twice the speed of sound, yet no such capability exists today, and there are no plans of any of the big aircraft manufacturers to build an aircraft of that capability. And building a new Mach 2 passenger aircraft would take a decade of development and cost billions, just like it did in the sixties. Does this mean that Concorde was fake?

Most people understand this comparison, however in this day and age you there is the risk that someone will reply "yes, the Concorde never existed, or it existed but never flew faster than the sound, and the one that crashed in France was just a bomb staged by the French government just like the so-called September 11 attacks in USA"...

We live in a world where conspiracy theories is the great new thing, and everyone it seems must believe in one or several such theories. All this is of course fueled by people like Bart Sibrel who spread his lies, not because he believes them himself but because there is money to be made off of it.

So people keep believing in simple explanations such as the "lack of stars in photos evidence" etc.


It is a good thing that people are critical and not necessarily blindly believe everything they're told by the government. But most people are sheep and instead just start to follow some conspiracy theorist blindly instead, believing that they are very critical and enlightened. And that makes them feel good.
« Last Edit: 07/09/2008 10:10 AM by rfoshaug »

Offline charlieb

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #103 on: 07/09/2008 03:47 PM »
The last paragraph above sounds like a quote that could apply to the global warming thingie....
Former Shuttle Mission Ops Eng  (In them days DF24 - INCO GROUP/COMMS, Now DS231-AVIONICS BRANCH).

Offline HIPAR

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #104 on: 07/09/2008 07:05 PM »
It's because of pictures like this:

http://www.solarviews.com/raw/apo/as11_40_5874.jpg

Upon reviewing the photo I do have a problem with it. Everything is casting distinct long shadows; the LEM, the astronaut the cables on the ground.  Everything but the flag staff and flag!  The flag staff is brightly lit on its sunny side so where is its shadow?  It's taller than the man so its shadow should be longer than the man's shadow.  It should appear between the shadows of the man and the LEM.  Can anyone out there see it in the photo?

That photo was cited on another forum to debunk the 'Where are the stars' hoax theory.  Expand the photo and you can see what appear to be a few stars in black space.  What exposed the streak behind the brightest starry object?

If that photo is genuine, there must be simple answers!

 ???

---  CHAS

Offline Gene DiGennaro

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #105 on: 07/09/2008 07:29 PM »
Expand the picture fully. Now, look carefully just past Buzz's shadow. You'll see a thin line in the lunar soil. It appears to be the shadow of the flagpole. The flag's shadow would off the frame of the picture. You can also see Buzz Aldrin's face behind the visor.

Offline Andrewwski

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #106 on: 07/09/2008 07:39 PM »
Yep...I see a shadow.  Look carefully as the soil is far from flat and the shadow may disappear behind it at some points in the image.

I've actually got a poster of that same image hanging above my computer now.  Never realized you could see Aldrin's face though.  That is cool!
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Offline HIPAR

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #107 on: 07/09/2008 08:09 PM »
Ok I'll accept that rather inconspicuous streak is most probably the staff shadow as it emerged from behind terrain masking.

I think I see stars in that photo but as an aside,  can anyone see the streak behind the starry object in space between the flag and Buzz?

Could it be the command module orbiting overhead.  My uneducated guess would be it's too long for what must have been exposure times of about a hundredth of a second.  It looks to be a genuine image to me.

---  CHAS

Offline Gene DiGennaro

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #108 on: 07/09/2008 08:53 PM »
I see the reflection of light off of the LEM's quad thruster, but that is on the other side of the flag. I don't see a streak between the flag and Buzz though.

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #109 on: 07/09/2008 09:38 PM »
Gene

About half way between Buzz and the flag look a little above half way from the horizon to the edge of the frame.  There's a fairly bright point of light there. The streak goes up and to the left from that point. It's not very visible but I can see it with both of my computers.  I don't think it's a star or a reflection in the camera optics ..  almost looks like a comet.  ;D

There might be several stars in the photo.  One is quite visible above the flag staff and another at the extreme upper right almost off the frame.

---  CHAS
« Last Edit: 07/09/2008 09:44 PM by HIPAR »

Offline Andrewwski

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #110 on: 07/09/2008 10:02 PM »
I see what you're talking about.
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Offline Patchouli

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #111 on: 07/09/2008 10:36 PM »
I think this video of Apollo 11s reentry also is good proof that it wasn't faked.
esp compare it to a Gemini 9a and space shuttle LEO reentry.
Also remember the shuttle is 20x heavier then the Apollo command module.

You can see the plasma trail is a lot brighter in the lunar reentry showing they are coming in faster.



Gemini LEO reentry for comparison.



Even the Shuttle reentry isn't as bright as the Apollo 11 reentry though the shuttle sure does give some good views of the event.

« Last Edit: 07/09/2008 10:46 PM by Patchouli »

Offline gospacex

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #112 on: 07/10/2008 06:10 AM »
I think this video of Apollo 11s reentry also is good proof that it wasn't faked.
esp compare it to a Gemini 9a and space shuttle LEO reentry.
Also remember the shuttle is 20x heavier then the Apollo command module.

You can see the plasma trail is a lot brighter in the lunar reentry showing they are coming in faster.

Come on, everyone knows that NASA put some salts in the heat shield to make it glow brighter! ;) ;) ;)

Offline pippin

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #113 on: 07/10/2008 07:11 AM »


My summary is this.  It would have been more difficult to fake the landings that it was to actually make the landings.



I think this is the most important point that is missed by the hoaxers.


That and the Fact the Other player, the USSR did not call foul..

But we forget that whole conspiracy theory, has mad a lot of money for some.. and we know that money drives a lot of things in our society..

Danny's got the point

About the money: Don't take all this too serious: A lot of people have lots of FUN doing conspiracy theories and things like that.

And even MORE FUN seeing other poeple fretting about it.

So as the saying goes: don't feed the trolls....

Offline Webhamster

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #114 on: 07/10/2008 02:06 PM »
Gene

About half way between Buzz and the flag look a little above half way from the horizon to the edge of the frame.  There's a fairly bright point of light there. The streak goes up and to the left from that point. It's not very visible but I can see it with both of my computers.  I don't think it's a star or a reflection in the camera optics ..  almost looks like a comet.  ;D

There might be several stars in the photo.  One is quite visible above the flag staff and another at the extreme upper right almost off the frame.

---  CHAS

It could also be something as innocuous as a speck or several specks of dust that landed on the film when it was being developed or when it was being scanned or when this print was made.

Offline haywoodfloyd

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #115 on: 07/10/2008 03:47 PM »
OK.
Let's get down to brass tacks on this whole thing.
The conspiracy theorists claim that the Moon Landing was faked.
Nowhere have I ever seen that they claim that the lift-off was faked...i mean, how can you ignore something that big and that loud?
So the lift-off was real.
I have never heard any of them say that the orbit and rendezvous of all the Gemini missions were faked...a normal part of a Moon Mission.
And I've never heard any of them say that sitting in an Apollo Capsule for 3 days on the way to the Moon was more difficult than sitting in a Gemini or Apollo capsule orbiting the Earth.
Or that landing on the Moon was more difficult than blasting through the Earth's atmosphere on re-entry.
So there you have it.
Why would NASA have to fake a mission that it proved time and time again it had the technology to accompish.


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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #116 on: 07/10/2008 05:23 PM »
I didn't see it mentioned on this thread, apparently the Mythbusters are going to debunk this...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9wfE6k-35s8
"This Week at NASA", NASA TV, February 8, 2008
Quote
"The Marshall Space Flight Center hosted the Mythbusters television show. The Mythbusters chose Marshall as one of several NASA locations for an episode to debunk the notion that NASA never landed on the moon. The cast conducted tests involving a feather, a weight, a lunar soil boot print, and a flag in a vacuum. A team of Marshall scientists helped with the tests."
According to the Mythbusters' wikipedia page the episode will air in august 2008


Offline Orbiter

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #117 on: 07/10/2008 05:33 PM »
I didn't see it mentioned on this thread, apparently the Mythbusters are going to debunk this...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9wfE6k-35s8
"This Week at NASA", NASA TV, February 8, 2008
Quote
"The Marshall Space Flight Center hosted the Mythbusters television show. The Mythbusters chose Marshall as one of several NASA locations for an episode to debunk the notion that NASA never landed on the moon. The cast conducted tests involving a feather, a weight, a lunar soil boot print, and a flag in a vacuum. A team of Marshall scientists helped with the tests."
According to the Mythbusters' wikipedia page the episode will air in august 2008



Already know the outcome for the flag.
It wasn't waving, but waved only when moved. I believe they proved the Moon Landings real. Or, Moon Landing Hoax Busted, I think, I will have to see the Airing in August. I have a feeling the feather has something to do in reference to Apollo 15.
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Offline Webhamster

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #118 on: 07/10/2008 06:24 PM »
I have a feeling the feather has something to do in reference to Apollo 15.

Whenever I'm confronted with a hoaxer I make them watch Dave Scott's experiment and challenge them to replicate it on Earth.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4mTsrRZEMwA&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4mTsrRZEMwA&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Of course they always babble on about "special effects" or "the feather was weighted with lead" or "it was on strings" or some other bunk just so they can continue their lives in the blissful ignorance that they're "smarter" than everyone else.

But it did change the mind of one hoaxer who believed the silly "documentaries" because they're all she'd ever really seen.  Once she saw this video she started borrowing all my books and videos and is now just as much of a space geek as I am.

Offline cpcjr

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #119 on: 07/10/2008 07:01 PM »
I have a feeling the feather has something to do in reference to Apollo 15.

Whenever I'm confronted with a hoaxer I make them watch Dave Scott's experiment and challenge them to replicate it on Earth.

Of course they always babble on about "special effects" or "the feather was weighted with lead" or "it was on strings" or some other bunk just so they can continue their lives in the blissful ignorance that they're "smarter" than everyone else.

But it did change the mind of one hoaxer who believed the silly "documentaries" because they're all she'd ever really seen.  Once she saw this video she started borrowing all my books and videos and is now just as much of a space geek as I am.

I do recall one time seeing an attempt to duplicate it on Earth.

They did get the feather and hamer to fall at about the same rate but there was trick to it. They held the feather perpendicular to the ground, which naturaly reduces its air resitence.

However if you look closly at Dave Scott's experiment he held the feather parallel to the ground which would have maximized its air resitence on Earth.

Some one not whatching closely may not have seen the difference. This is known as a bait and switch tactic.
« Last Edit: 07/10/2008 07:04 PM by cpcjr »

Offline sfxtd

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #120 on: 07/17/2008 10:36 AM »
Quote
Whenever I'm confronted with a hoaxer I make them watch Dave Scott's experiment and challenge them to replicate it on Earth.
...

I do recall one time seeing an attempt to duplicate it on Earth.

They did get the feather and hamer to fall at about the same rate but there was trick to it. They held the feather perpendicular to the ground, which naturaly reduces its air resitence.

However if you look closly at Dave Scott's experiment he held the feather parallel to the ground which would have maximized its air resitence on Earth.

Some one not whatching closely may not have seen the difference. This is known as a bait and switch tactic.
[/quote]

One could conceivably replicate this effect in the Space Environmental Simulation Laboratory, or similar facility, eliminating any significant air resistance, combined with a 1/6g  slow-motion effect. Not that I believe it was done, but just to be prepared for the argument. Of course, if it was done, someone would have proof and would have talked by now.

Offline cpcjr

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #121 on: 07/17/2008 12:39 PM »
Whenever I'm confronted with a hoaxer I make them watch Dave Scott's experiment and challenge them to replicate it on Earth.
...

I do recall one time seeing an attempt to duplicate it on Earth.

They did get the feather and hamer to fall at about the same rate but there was trick to it. They held the feather perpendicular to the ground, which naturaly reduces its air resitence.

However if you look closly at Dave Scott's experiment he held the feather parallel to the ground which would have maximized its air resitence on Earth.

Some one not whatching closely may not have seen the difference. This is known as a bait and switch tactic.

One could conceivably replicate this effect in the Space Environmental Simulation Laboratory, or similar facility, eliminating any significant air resistance, combined with a 1/6g  slow-motion effect. Not that I believe it was done, but just to be prepared for the argument. Of course, if it was done, someone would have proof and would have talked by now.

Yes, one could replicate the effect in a vacum chamber but the moon hoax crowd claims it was all done on a sound stage. That would requier one big vacum chamber.

To have done this experment in the Space Environmental Simulation Laboratory and then edit in with specal affects would have been more trouble than it's worth.

If they had faked the landings, they would have most likely done this expirment feather perpendicular to the ground or not bothered with it at all.

One good question for the hoax crowd would be to ask: What kind of evidence they would consider proof that the Moon landings were real?
« Last Edit: 07/17/2008 12:45 PM by cpcjr »

Offline marsavian

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #123 on: 07/19/2008 09:04 PM »

Offline khallow

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #124 on: 07/21/2008 04:31 AM »
Notice how long it took them to set up that flag too. Not very cinamatic there.

Another example would be film from a moving lunar rover. I gather (though I haven't seen anything other than brief clips) that they have a nice, long, unbroken block of film showing the view from the front of the lunar rover. Very hard to do that in a movie.

If there is a side shot, one should be able to see the change in perspective, not just of nearby objects, but also distant objects like ridges. Now to fake those lunar landings, we need a studio that's several miles across or that's vastly smaller in size. But such film would also correlate in places with film of standing astronauts.
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Offline Tschachim

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #125 on: 07/21/2008 01:21 PM »
Hi haywoodfloyd,

I fear you underestimate the "creativity" of the conspiracy people here:

Nowhere have I ever seen that they claim that the lift-off was faked...i mean, how can you ignore something that big and that loud?
So the lift-off was real.

You're right that most conspiracy nuts believe in the existence of the Saturn V, but I've even seen that claim with the usual explanation that all spectators were government agents or possessed by aliens or whatever...

I have never heard any of them say that the orbit and rendezvous of all the Gemini missions were faked...

This I see quite oftenly, a lot of conspiracy nuts don't believe we went to space at all. A smaller fraction of that don't believe that there's space at all. ... or a Moon...

And I've never heard any of them say that sitting in an Apollo Capsule for 3 days on the way to the Moon was more difficult than sitting in a Gemini or Apollo capsule orbiting the Earth.

Don't forget the absolutely lethal space radiation...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Moon_Landing_hoax_accusations#Ionizing_radiation_and_heat

One good question for the hoax crowd would be to ask: What kind of evidence they would consider proof that the Moon landings were real?

That's the real problem here, the answer would be that there is no such evidence, of course, because the moon landings are fake obviously... You can't argue with someone who doesn't know how arguing works...

Cheers
Tschachim

Offline cpcjr

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #126 on: 07/21/2008 02:39 PM »
I have never heard any of them say that the orbit and rendezvous of all the Gemini missions were faked...

This I see quite oftenly, a lot of conspiracy nuts don't believe we went to space at all. A smaller fraction of that don't believe that there's space at all. ... or a Moon...

Then what exactly is it that we see in the sky? The existance of the Moon is real easy to prove, just look up in the sky on most clear nights and there it is.

Quote
One good question for the hoax crowd would be to ask: What kind of evidence they would consider proof that the Moon landings were real?

That's the real problem here, the answer would be that there is no such evidence, of course, because the moon landings are fake obviously... You can't argue with someone who doesn't know how arguing works...

That would not be an answer but a dodging of the question, that makes them  politicians not scientists 

Which would only prove that there is no evidence that would change their mind and thus make any descussion a waste of time. It is also exactly the type of answer I would exspect.

« Last Edit: 07/21/2008 02:43 PM by cpcjr »

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #127 on: 07/21/2008 04:08 PM »
Then what exactly is it that we see in the sky? The existance of the Moon is real easy to prove, just look up in the sky on most clear nights and there it is.

Yet another alien or governmental (or both) device to fool the public. Of course this is a very extreme form of conspiracy stuff I find really rarely (thank god  :)).

Which would only prove that there is no evidence that would change their mind and thus make any descussion a waste of time.

Exactly! Unfortunatly for me it takes a lot of discipline to keep that in mind, I'm wasting far too much time to discuss with conspiracy nuts (hope dies last...  ;)).

Cheers
Tschachim

Offline E_ E_ H

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #128 on: 07/22/2008 08:48 AM »
Ignorance is bliss... If only they knew what knowledge is!!!
Ground control to Major Chris....

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #129 on: 07/26/2008 02:06 PM »
I am 54 years old. In 1969, I was 15.

I clearly recall in 1969, many people, in conversation, being skeptical about men having been to the Moon. Sadly, it was mostly the older, less educated, and poorest people, who ventured this opinion. The media seldom bothered to feature anyone with this view because it was so limited to this clearly deluded minority. The public, in general, had a definite pride in our space achievements that today could only be compared with our feelings for the heroes of the twin towers of 9-11. In 1969, a very high percentage of young people strongly believed in the reality of the spaceflights, and many were very enthusiastic and -- dare I say -- inspired by the landings on the Moon. Many of those people are the engineers, scientists, and astronauts in the space industry today.

So why do so many people today believe that Apollo was faked?

I think the strongest reason is that many people alive today were born after the Moon landings. They can only experience those events in a photo or video or audio clip. They have no concept of the shared, truly global experience of the Apollo landings -- and especially, of course, of Apollo 11, the first human steps on another world! Almost everyone -- at least in American society -- who was alive and over the age of infancy in 1969 can even now still recall at least a hint of a true collective human awareness from those July days, 39 years ago.

With the words "one giant leap for mankind", the sheer, awesome significance of stepping into another world -- and by doing so to cleave all history into times before and after that instant -- was amazingly expressed quite aptly by the modest engineer who represented nothing less than all of humanity throughout all of time in that moment. President Richard Nixon and his speechwriters -- regardless of whatever their crimes might have been later -- captured a poignant sense of the uniqueness of it all in the words: "For one priceless moment, in the whole history of Man, all the people on this Earth are truly one." And whatever your cynicisms, then or now, that statement -- as high flown as its implications may be -- is a truth that still stands nearly inescapable.

And as powerful as these words may have been to illustrate the significance of what was occuring, for nearly everyone alive at that moment, no words seemed necessary to underscore the rite of passage of our species. Everyone who lived through that event was fundamentally changed by it. Though we may not care to admit it or try to express it, the events of July 20, 1969 changed us. Likewise, for anyone who was in a coma or in North Vietnam or who was not yet born, no amount of replays in any medium can convey that experience and the change in our culture that it represented.

To the arrogant cynics of today, to the nihilistic young of today, to those who prefer conspiracy theories to history, to those who hate science and math or learning in general, to those of a liberal bent who reject the stunning achievement of the most visionary of goals ever set by a democratic President, to those who simply hate anyone and anything older than them, to those secretly envious because it did not happen in their world, on their watch, in their generation -- perhaps no proof, no words, no evidence is sufficient. Perhaps some that think it was all a hoax are somehow confused and furious that the Moon -- and with it, a hope for a better future -- was foolishly abandoned for half a century.

Let us all hope that we will all witness within the next decade a new step upon that ancient world and symbol of the unattainable -- and a new giant leap for a new generation of Humankind -- an even greater leap into a future beyond all our imaginings and toward hopes that we will never again forsake.


Mike Langford     

Offline gospacex

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #130 on: 07/26/2008 05:10 PM »
(...) To the arrogant cynics of today, to the nihilistic young of today, to those who prefer conspiracy theories to history, to those who hate science and math or learning in general, to those of a liberal bent who reject the stunning achievement of the most visionary of goals ever set by a democratic President, to those who simply hate anyone and anything older than them, to those secretly envious because it did not happen in their world, on their watch, in their generation -- perhaps no proof, no words, no evidence is sufficient. (...)

However, how it happened that since Apollo we, "techies", who are supposedly prefer history to conspiracy theories, love science and math or learning in general, and are proud of the stunning achievement of the most visionary of goals - why we collectively failed to follow on it? Why since after Apollo days US manned spaceflight seems to be stagnating? Didn't we gave "them" a weapon by failing to establish a Moon base for so many years? By failing to build a sustainable manned spaceflight infrastructure?

Why it happened? What is wrong? Isn't $17 billion per year enough for that?

Offline xray-delta-niner

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #131 on: 07/26/2008 06:58 PM »
Why did we collectively fail to follow on it? Why, after Apollo, does US manned spaceflight seem to be stagnating? Didn't we give "them" a weapon by failing to establish a Moon base for so many years? By failing to build a sustainable manned spaceflight infrastructure? Isn't $17 billion per year enough?

Apollo was a great success, so naturally, as the next step, we should be able to improve on it. To push the envelope. To go to the next level. But the sad truth is, as a nation, we have failed to out do ourselves. We can't, so far, in principle, improve on the incredible achievement of Apollo. So what do we do? We go back to Apollo.

But how did this happen? I believe that the problem was obviously partly political, partly technical, and partly economic.

First to the economic question, I'm not so sure NASA has received at least $17 billion (in 2008 dollars?) since 1969. I don't have that information and conversion factors. But I suspect there were more than a few lean years. Maybe we need at least that much and maybe a lot more. I think it's worth it.

Politically, JFK got us up to top speed with his Bold Directive, defined as a Space Race as a centerpiece for the Cold War. Then LBJ kept it going, but then there was Richard Milhous Nixon.

Nixon put his signature -- below the Apollo 11 crew -- on the plaque attached to the landing gear of Eagle, called them while they walked the Moon, greeted the crew after splashdown aboard the Hornet, and generally wined and dined our heroes, extracting as much luster from them as he possibly could.

Then, within two years, Nixon and a democratic Congress let the ax fall. First, Apollo 18 was cancelled. Then Apollo 19 and 20 were gone. And all that magnificent Apollo momentum was totally gone.
 
The plan at that time was for Apollo to evolve into a Space-Tug for translunar operations and a Lunar-Shuttle for landings, while nearer to Earth, Skylab was to become the prototype for a Space-Station, to be serviced by a Space Shuttle. Skylab was well along the road and thus survived budget cuts. Of the rest of the bold plan, only some early developmental funding for the Shuttle survived.

Then the technical problems began, as it proved very difficult to develop and maintain a fully re-useable space vehicle. First off came major compromises in the design, cost over-runs and more, delays and more delays. Early projections had the first orbital Shuttle flight in 1977. We eventually made it, only four years late. Then we couldn't come close to the original plan of a flight each month.

No president from Ford through Clinton had either a strong plan or mandate or Congressional support to begin any new space initiative. And they developed a habit of blaming it on the economy and saying that it was too expensive and that we've got to solve our problems here on Earth first.

Of course, with the Shuttle, we had our major successes and our major failures, but ultimately it proved to be Extremely Expensive to maintain even the first leg of our original planned reuseable space transportation system that would take crew and cargo from Earth to Moon and back on schedule. Moon Base Alpha? We couldn't even come up with Moon Bus Alpha.

Roughly, I figure, when the ISS is completed, we will be about twenty years behind our 1970 plan. That so-called "sustainable manned spaceflight infrastructure" turned out to be a bitch-and-two-thirds to build at any price. And you notice we have basically given up on the "reuseable" concept and gone back to Apollo. For political, technical, and economic reasons, we are Back to the Future with Apollo. A very advanced, ambitious, beefed-up Apollo, but Apollo nevertheless.

That's OK by me. I always liked Apollo. I would love to see us Apollo our way all the way to Saturn. Ex Luna et al Scientia!
   

Offline Jorge

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #132 on: 07/26/2008 07:27 PM »
Why did we collectively fail to follow on it? Why, after Apollo, does US manned spaceflight seem to be stagnating? Didn't we give "them" a weapon by failing to establish a Moon base for so many years? By failing to build a sustainable manned spaceflight infrastructure? Isn't $17 billion per year enough?

Apollo was a great success, so naturally, as the next step, we should be able to improve on it. To push the envelope. To go to the next level. But the sad truth is, as a nation, we have failed to out do ourselves. We can't, so far, in principle, improve on the incredible achievement of Apollo. So what do we do? We go back to Apollo.

But how did this happen? I believe that the problem was obviously partly political, partly technical, and partly economic.

First to the economic question, I'm not so sure NASA has received at least $17 billion (in 2008 dollars?) since 1969. I don't have that information and conversion factors. But I suspect there were more than a few lean years. Maybe we need at least that much and maybe a lot more. I think it's worth it.

Politically, JFK got us up to top speed with his Bold Directive, defined as a Space Race as a centerpiece for the Cold War. Then LBJ kept it going, but then there was Richard Milhous Nixon.

Ah, the eeevil Nixon myth rears its ugly head again. Beloved of space fanbois, it founders on the reef of inconvenient facts.

It was LBJ, not Nixon, who capped the Saturn V production line at 15 rockets, in 1968. LBJ cut NASA funding more in his last three budgets than Nixon did in all six of his.

Nixon was no friend of NASA, to be sure, but most of the damage was already done by the time he took office.

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Then, within two years, Nixon and a democratic Congress let the ax fall. First, Apollo 18 was cancelled. Then Apollo 19 and 20 were gone. And all that magnificent Apollo momentum was totally gone.

Incorrect. Apollo 20 went first, due to NASA's decision to launch Skylab as a dry-lab.

Apollo 15 and 19 came next, then 16-18 were renumbered 15-17. And that happened with the tacit approval of NASA officials such as Owen Maynard and Robert Gilruth, both of whom were glad to see Apollo end before a crew got killed and jeopardized future programs.
 
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The plan at that time was for Apollo to evolve into a Space-Tug for translunar operations and a Lunar-Shuttle for landings, while nearer to Earth, Skylab was to become the prototype for a Space-Station, to be serviced by a Space Shuttle. Skylab was well along the road and thus survived budget cuts. Of the rest of the bold plan, only some early developmental funding for the Shuttle survived.

More or less. But you have the timeline off, way off. Almost all of the paring-down of Apollo Applications occurred under LBJ. By the time Nixon took office, Apollo Applications had already been cut from 26 Saturn IB launches and 19 Saturn V launches, to eight Saturn IB launches and no Saturn V launches. This is very close to how the program actually played out, with one Saturn V launch and four Saturn IB launches (three for Skylab, one for ASTP).

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Then the technical problems began, as it proved very difficult to develop and maintain a fully re-useable space vehicle. First off came major compromises in the design, cost over-runs and more, delays and more delays.

That wasn't the "first off". The "first off" was NASA's decision to attempt the shuttle as an operational vehicle on the first iteration, when it should have been done as an X-vehicle (or more preferably, first in a series of X-vehicles) with no payload capacity at all.

Everything else was a consequence of that original decision - they were effects, not causes.
JRF

Offline Orbiter

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #133 on: 07/26/2008 07:53 PM »
I also notice that many people that believe that the moon Landings were fake have no real scientific background, at most maybe an English Master's Degree. They don't realize the scientific part of it, and only go by what they see on TV. Most of them haven't an idea of the equipment that was used on the moon.
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Offline cpcjr

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #134 on: 07/26/2008 08:26 PM »
Then what exactly is it that we see in the sky? The existance of the Moon is real easy to prove, just look up in the sky on most clear nights and there it is.

Yet another alien or governmental (or both) device to fool the public. Of course this is a very extreme form of conspiracy stuff I find really rarely (thank god  :)).

This gives conspiracy nuts a bad name. Its a total denial of reality.

Offline Orbiter

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #135 on: 07/26/2008 08:38 PM »
Then what exactly is it that we see in the sky? The existance of the Moon is real easy to prove, just look up in the sky on most clear nights and there it is.

Yet another alien or governmental (or both) device to fool the public. Of course this is a very extreme form of conspiracy stuff I find really rarely (thank god  :)).

This gives conspiracy nuts a bad name. Its a total denial of reality.

There are things just as bad.
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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #136 on: 07/26/2008 10:16 PM »
It's very short and simple. People resent being felt to be made small by something bigger than they are, and retaliate with unreasonable, unjustified ridicule.

When the society values boldness, the few like this are endured as hopeless, useless crackpots. When our society, like now, values self-absorbtion and narrowmindedness more than reaching beyond our current grasp, then this is an accepted opinion for many to hold, regardless of truth.

What you describe here is more of a sickness that is unacknowledged, in fact seen by some falsely as a virtue. The measure of it in the number of adherents is a metric on the health, on the virtue of us as a society.

Offline xray-delta-niner

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #137 on: 07/27/2008 07:30 AM »
NobodyofConsequence speaks as one of GreatConsequence with a concise, articulate, accurate analysis of our present sorry state. Your interpretation of our collective psyche's anti-intellectual state of denial is as clear and wise as our cultural moorings are muddy and decrepit.

When profound ignorance becomes a popular virtue, soundbite lies become archival facts, and trite platitudes become great inspiration, where is our hope as a civilization? It is not with our institutions mired in the status quo.

Space exploration could be a path out of this quagmire, but it may take more than a few very brave and very brilliant minds to blaze the trail. 

Offline m330533

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #138 on: 07/27/2008 11:10 AM »
I was thinking a lot about even leaving a comment on this subject or not, but after reading some of the comments already left here, besides after having watched the (in my personal opinion) really stunning fantastic Disc.Ch. documentary 'WhenWeLeftEarth' and in addition having seen a subject-related german TV-issue of 'Have we really been on the moon' (maybe someone's seen it, too, aired shortly on N24), here what I have in my mind...

As long as there and is anything positive happening (or already happened), there always will be an opposite of people being against it at all or even being against any success at all (regardless which subject).
Besides there will always be some ... people stating: 'It wont be true or the truth unless I have seen it with my own eyes or unless been a part of it or discovered it myself'.
I know, that Iam going to 'lean myself of the window' (as its really nothing to do with this very great forum at all, so please forgive me) but it reminds me everytime in the same way, as youll always and still ( ! ) find some people stating in the same way, that the Hollocaust was a total lie and hasnt exist ... because 'they havent seen it with their own eyes' (like stated here a few words earlier).

Its, for me, impossible to follow whats in their mind and why.

Its a shame and really disappointing, but we wont ever change them and that situation ever.

Offline on-orbit

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #139 on: 07/27/2008 12:36 PM »
Human nature, do NOT let it get to you.There is always a segment of society that believes strange things because they *want* to believe them, and of course plenty of people happy to exploit that. Simply provide the facts and oppose the nonsense in a calm way. It can get old, but view it as a chance to educate about science and skeptical thinking.

I agree,

Some believe the Apollo fake stories for the same reason many believe that 9/11 was plotted and executed by the CIA or the Israeli Mossad - depending on who you ask.

Some people  - but not only the young, pimpled kids - will go to any lengths to make reality fit their sick "theories" and beliefs. This pathetic bunch easily falls pray to any propaganda and disinformation which fit their distorted views.

Two good books to read in this light are:

"INTELLECTUAL MORONS"
How Ideology Makes Smart People Fall for Stupid Ideas
by Daniel J. Flynn
ISBN-13: 978-1-4000-5356-8
ISBN-10: 1-4000-5356-0

and (ironically) a NYT best-seller:

"BIAS"
A CBS Insider Exposes How the Media Distort the News
by Bernard Goldberg
ISBN-0-06-052084-1

It is frightening to see that the current mainstream media (Reuters, CNN, BBC, NY Times, The Independent, The Guardian etc.) and some less-obvious organizations manipulate reality to the point that you cannot rely on any of them for a "clean", reporting-only content. I am yet to see or read a piece of news or report from the above-mentioned media which was not tainted to a significant degree by bias, activism, malicious innuendo, pompous drama, facts distortion, out-of-context quotes and/or double-talk. Whenever I see news on these and other channels I ask myself 'Who do these reports serve?' and I always reach the same conclusion - NOT ME!

In the past, media was considered the "guarding dogs of democracy and freedom". These days media is just that - dogs.

Sorry for the clouds.
« Last Edit: 07/27/2008 02:34 PM by on-orbit »

Offline marsavian

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #140 on: 07/28/2008 01:33 PM »
Somebody seems very concerned about these 'imaginary' landing sites being trashed by X-prize robots. Some hoax conspiracist should tell them not to trouble themselves ;)

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/080725-google-xprize.html

 
« Last Edit: 07/28/2008 01:33 PM by marsavian »

Offline ckiki lwai

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #141 on: 08/10/2008 04:50 PM »
good news everyone!
mythbusters is going to air an episode about the "moon hoax"
It will be aired on august 27th


probably not enough for the diehard hoax believer, who already think they are payed by the government, but a lot of undecided people could be convinced
Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Offline Svetoslav

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #142 on: 08/10/2008 04:54 PM »
I have aired an online broadcast about the moon hoax and I have several articles refuting it. The result is all the same. Hardcore theorists will always say it's part of the Great Circus and the World Conspiracy and nothing is sure.

Offline fredm6463

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #143 on: 08/14/2008 07:26 PM »
That thought bewilders me because if NASA did fake the moon landings, I am sure the Russians would have loved to provide proof the US never landed on the moon.

Why would the Russians, who lost pride and had failed lunar rockets (N1)
not want to debunk the US moon landings.

Since they never tried to challenge the US's achievement, is proof enough that we did indeed land men on the moon.

Offline Rusty_Barton

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #144 on: 08/14/2008 07:49 PM »
A lot of it has to do with money to be made. The people that produce videos and books about the so called "moon hoax" are most likely in it for the money. It's in their interest to keep the conspiracy theories alive to keep the money flowing.

Offline Svetoslav

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Re: Why do so many believe Apollo was faked?
« Reply #145 on: 08/16/2008 03:26 PM »
As for this:

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That thought bewilders me because if NASA did fake the moon landings, I am sure the Russians would have loved to provide proof the US never landed on the moon.

Conspiracy theorists say that the Illuminati governments of these countries (USA and Russia) were not enemies, thus the Cold War never existed and everything we see in this world is a lie.

Believe me, there are a lot of people who believe in this silly conspiracy theory. They never know it's pure brainwashing.

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