ATK's new vehicle to provide multi-access options

[danielc56]

Zap83 - 21/1/2008  10:01 AM

In the high-bay picture, there is a short, squatty spacecraft down at the far end.  I'm thinking this is PSpace's vehicle.

That mock-up looks very similar to the manned spacecraft concept studied   by Bigelow & Lockheed Martin.

 

danielc56

[libs0n]

Smoothie - 23/1/2008  8:18 AM

Antares - 22/1/2008  2:14 PM

clongton - 21/1/2008  2:24 PM

HIP2BSQRE - 21/1/2008  3:20 PM
COTS 1.5

4.2 Eligible Participants
The following entities may submit proposals under this announcement: an entity organized under the laws of the United States or of a State, which is:

A. More than 50 percent owned by United States nationals; or

Looks like Canadian money is out again. That's kinda sad, and typical of the shortsightedness of the people who are running the country and it's agencies.

Sigh.  These restrictions come from the Commercial Space Acts and Commercial Space Launch Acts, variously passed and amended over the last 20 years.  COTS is just obeying the laws passed by Congress, generally a good idea.  Forgive me if that was known, but such awareness was not apparent in the words posted.

You guys have it all wrong....  A company must be more then 50 percent owned by US Nationals in order to participate in COTS.  It says nothing about funding in that statement whatsoever.

I wonder if NAFTA could have some relevance here; how, or if, it relates to Canadians being excluded from competition.  i.e. whether this violates a part of the free trade agreement between Canada and the United States.

[TrueGrit]

Canada just demanded that Boeing and Lockheed make an equivelent investment in Canada for their current multi-billion C-17 & C-130 buys...  I'd think the aircraft workers in SoCal, Georgia, Fort Worth, St Louis, etc would love it if this type of "jobs program" strings didn't exist.  Complaints like this go both ways.

[libs0n]

Yea, but in that case an American company wasn't excluded from competition. In this case, I don't think there's any doubt that the majority of developmental activities derived from Canadian funding or participation will be pursued in America.  I'm just curious as to whether the letter of the law may be against the law itself, as perhaps due to NAFTA Canadians may have to be treated differently than other non-US nationals.

[HMXHMX]

"That mock-up looks very similar to the manned spacecraft concept studied by Bigelow & Lockheed Martin."

That's because it is the very same mockup that used to be at LM Denver until a  few weeks ago.

[meiza]

HMXHMX - 24/1/2008  7:56 PM

"That mock-up looks very similar to the manned spacecraft concept studied by Bigelow & Lockheed Martin."

That's because it is the very same mockup that used to be at LM Denver until a  few weeks ago.

And now at ATK.

[TrueGrit]

Doesn't matter if it's violation of the law if no one fights against it...  And to tell the truth every country out there demands these type of nationalistic priorities on governmental contracts.  And considering all the flak over ATK and MDA I don't think nationalistic priorities are missing north of the border.  And don't tell me it's about the land mine treaty...  Most of the outcry is based on a Canadian company gettting eaten by a US company.  Any Canadian company can come in and bid on COTS...  They only need to come in wiht an equal American partner.  It is just like the equal investment demands...  A way to assure public money stays within as much as possible with the people who paid those taxes.  And for note: US companies are forced to the same when they bid on government contracts in Japan, who US has a free trade agreement with.

[clongton]

TrueGrit - 24/1/2008  5:28 PM

Doesn't matter if it's violation of the law if no one fights against it...  And to tell the truth every country out there demands these type of nationalistic priorities on governmental contracts.  And considering all the flak over ATK and MDA I don't think nationalistic priorities are missing north of the border.  And don't tell me it's about the land mine treaty...  Most of the outcry is based on a Canadian company gettting eaten by a US company.  Any Canadian company can come in and bid on COTS...  They only need to come in wiht an equal American partner.  It is just like the equal investment demands...  A way to assure public money stays within as much as possible with the people who paid those taxes.  And for note: US companies are forced to the same when they bid on government contracts in Japan, who US has a free trade agreement with.

It needs to be 51% US holding to qualify for COTS. Doesn't matter where the other 49% comes from, with a few notable exceptions I would imagine.

[Sid454]

I don't think this would be idea for crew launch an all solid vehicle would just be too rough a ride also a much larger reentry vehicle or a three module vehicle like soyuz would have to be used.
 But if it can be done cheaply and if they can integrate a vehicle quickly it might be good for a fast response cargo launch vehicle that could launch days from when the order was given.
One big issue is can ATK/planetspace beat progress's ,H2's and the ATV's in cost per Kg to orbit though they might be able to do quicker response then any of them.

Any crew transport in this deal will likely be from some hybrid of ATK's and planet space's concepts maybe a nova core booster combined with two three segment RSRMs and the silverdart as a big liquid stage does a good job of damping the vibrations from large SRBs.

I seen the LM capsule but with the service module which I didn't see it might be too heavy for the vehicle shown also wither or not it also needs an orbital module depends on how quick the ISS rendezvous is if they can do a three orbit catchups like apollo did with skylab then the vehicle shown would do the job no OM needed.

But if you are going to perform two day ISS transfers then you might want to give the crew a little more room and some sort of bathroom facilities likely derived from Soyuz first I'd ask people who flew on Soyuz for suggested improvements.

The dart wouldn't be much heavier then the LM vehicle plus an OM but would be able to offer much more flexibility esp in landing opportunities .

[HIP2BSQRE]

If you were building the LM capsule would you build it to perform a two day ISS transfer or 3 orbit catch up?  How would this affect LM if they also want to use it for a Bigalow station?  I think myself I would build it for a orbit catch up--less complex and hopefully less cost.

[edkyle99]

edkyle99 - 21/1/2008  3:58 PM

For what it's worth, I've been trying to model this ATK COTS Demo Booster (or Athena III, or whatever it might be called) and I'm having trouble coming up with 6 tonnes to an ISS inclined low earth orbit. I get 6 tonnes to a 28.5 degree LEO from the Cape, but only 5.1-ish tonnes to a 51.6 degree orbit.

After looking at this in more detail using an ascent model, I'm now seeing nearly 6,000 kg to a 185 km x 51.6 degree orbit from Cape Canaveral for the "starter version" of "Athena III" (the one that uses steel rather than composite SRB-type motor casings).  The high thrust to weight ratio of this launch vehicle appears to make the difference since it results in fairly low gravity losses.  The same launch vehicle should be able to boost more than 6,300 kg to a 185 km x 28.5 deg orbit from the Cape.  

This compares with my best guesstimate 5,000-5,200 kg to 185 km x 51.6 deg orbit for Taurus II and roughly 9,500 kg for Falcon 9.

 - Ed Kyle

[edkyle99]

BTW, my launch weight guesses for the three interesting COTS launch vehicles are:  255 tonnes for Taurus II, 336 tonnes for Falcon 9, and 440 tonnes for Athena III.  Liftoff weight to 185 x 51.6 deg payload weight ratios are 50, 35, and 73, respectively.

It is hard to remember a more interesting launch vehicle competition in U.S. history.  Here are three different approaches to the problem that not only produce three differing technological solutions but also three different payload capability solutions.  We have all solid versus all liquid versus a solid/liquid combination.  We have monster solid booster versus twin engine liquid versus mega-cluster liquid.  We have two stage versus three stage versus four stage.  And so on.

The EELV compete was nearly as interesting, but lacked the immediate drama of the current race.  The CELV competition wasn't nearly as fascinating, mainly because what became Titan 4 was all but a foregone conclusion.  

 - Ed Kyle

[antonioe]

edkyle99 - 3/2/2008 12:07 AM my launch weight guesses for the three interesting COTS launch vehicles are: 255 tonnes for Taurus II, 336 tonnes for Falcon 9, and 440 tonnes for Athena III. Liftoff weight to 185 x 51.6 deg payload weight ratios are 50, 35, and 73, respectively.

Very interesting analysis... how do these three payload weight ratios compare with historic LV´s in this class?

 It is hard to remember a more interesting launch vehicle competition in U.S. history... The EELV compete was nearly as interesting, but lacked the immediate drama of the current race.

I´m already working the movie rights for my script.  I want Tom Hanks playing DWT, Brad Pitt playing Elon Musk, and Anthony Hopkins as Dan Murphy...

[aero313]

antonioe - 4/2/2008  5:25 AM

I´m already working the movie rights for my script.  I want Tom Hanks playing DWT, Brad Pitt playing Elon Musk, and Anthony Hopkins as Dan Murphy...

Funny you should mention this (and to get wildly off topic). I had always thought that the "Making of Pegasus" movie should have had Ron Howard (when he had hair) as Dave and Tom Bosley as Ed Nicastri... :laugh:

[edkyle99]

antonioe - 4/2/2008  4:25 AM

edkyle99 - 3/2/2008 12:07 AM my launch weight guesses for the three interesting COTS launch vehicles are: 255 tonnes for Taurus II, 336 tonnes for Falcon 9, and 440 tonnes for Athena III. Liftoff weight to 185 x 51.6 deg payload weight ratios are 50, 35, and 73, respectively.

Very interesting analysis... how do these three payload weight ratios compare with historic LV´s in this class?

Taurus II's payload ratio is comparable to Delta II, another liquid/solid mix.  Falcon 9 approaches, but doesn't quite reach, the Atlas IIA/III realm, consistent with an all-liquid launch vehicle.  There really isn't a good comparison for all-solid "Athena III".  Lockheed's old Athena II, a much smaller vehicle (1/4th the liftoff mass) that used composite motor cases, would have had a similar gross launch weight to payload ratio, but a smaller dry mass to payload ratio.

The gross weight comparison is striking.  Athena III is going to weigh 440 tonnes by my figuring (nearly 1 million pounds) at liftoff - more than either base EELV model and nearly as much as a Zenit 2, a rocket that hauls more than two times as much payload.  Athena III's dry mass would be about three times that of Taurus II and roughly 2.8 times more than Falcon 9, but it would only carry 1.18 times more payload than Taurus II and 1.5-ish times LESS payload than Falcon 9.

This may or may not provide a clue about the solid versus liquid cost question.  Presumably, Athena III cannot cost more than 1.17 times as much as Taurus II despite weighing more than 1.7 times as much at liftoff and 3 times as much dry.  The Falcon 9 comparison is another thing altogether.

 - Ed Kyle

[antonioe]

aero313 - 4/2/2008 9:26 AM  I had always thought that the "Making of Pegasus" movie should have had Ron Howard (when he had hair) as Dave and Tom Bosley as Ed Nicastri... :laugh:

Now that you mentioned it, Dave DID look A LOT like Ron Howard did... and he still SOUNDS like Ron Howard!!!

Let me call my agent, quickly!

[kevin-rf]

antonioe - 4/2/2008  11:54 AM

aero313 - 4/2/2008 9:26 AM  I had always thought that the "Making of Pegasus" movie should have had Ron Howard (when he had hair) as Dave and Tom Bosley as Ed Nicastri... :laugh:

Now that you mentioned it, Dave DID look A LOT like Ron Howard did... and he still SOUNDS like Ron Howard!!!

Let me call my agent, quickly!

Okay, since Slim Pickens is in the great beyond, who are you going to get imitate Icarus and ride the Pegasus?

Will this a Kubrick production?

[antonioe]

kevin-rf - 4/2/2008 11:54 AM  Will this a Kubrick production?

Yes, and the closing song will be "M-I-C   K-E-Y   M-O-U-S-E"... 

[antonioe]

<p>Left to right: DWT in early 1988, visiting the Hercules facilities in Magna, Utah; Ron Howard and Henry Winkler at the peak of the Happy Days happy days (circa 1980.)</p><p>Notice part of the black Pegasus model in the background (before we analyzed the surface temperature a black Pegasus would reach under a typical Mojave Desert  noon sun.)  Dave started Orbital in 1982, six years before that picture was taken.  He looked younger in 1982.

[publiusr]

I'd like to see some artists conceptions comparing Athena III, Taurus II, and Andrews Hercules if that is possible.