Author Topic: ATK's new vehicle to provide multi-access options (Read 27356 times)

MATTBLAK · « **Reply #20 on:** 01/21/2008 06:53 pm »

Could they make a 5-and-a-half segment Ares 1?

:laugh:

HIP2BSQRE · « **Reply #21 on:** 01/21/2008 07:06 pm »

Do you think that it could lift Space X Dragon to the ISS or to a Bigalow habitat?

HIP2BSQRE · « **Reply #22 on:** 01/21/2008 07:20 pm »

COTS 1.5

4.2 Eligible Participants
The following entities may submit proposals under this announcement: an entity organized under the laws of the United States or of a State, which is:

A. More than 50 percent owned by United States nationals; or

clongton · « **Reply #23 on:** 01/21/2008 07:24 pm »

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HIP2BSQRE - 21/1/2008 3:20 PM

COTS 1.5

4.2 Eligible Participants
The following entities may submit proposals under this announcement: an entity organized under the laws of the United States or of a State, which is:

A. More than 50 percent owned by United States nationals; or

Looks like Canadian money is out again. That's kinda sad, and typical of the shortsightedness of the people who are running the country and it's agencies.

marsavian · « **Reply #24 on:** 01/21/2008 07:32 pm »

http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080121/NEWS02/801210324

Jeff Lerner · « **Reply #25 on:** 01/21/2008 07:40 pm »

"....Canadian state ......"

??

The heck you say.....

Smoothie · « **Reply #26 on:** 01/21/2008 07:48 pm »

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clongton - 21/1/2008 1:44 AM

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tankmodeler - 21/1/2008 1:39 PM

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clongton - 21/1/2008 11:04 AM

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Zap83 - 21/1/2008 11:01 AM

In the high-bay picture, there is a short, squatty spacecraft down at the far end. I'm thinking this is PSpace's vehicle.
Sure looks like one, doesn't it.
If you take a look at the banner over the vehicle, the third entity up there, BMO, is the Canandian "Bank of Montreal". So, RpK had a huge stake from the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan (Canadian provincial teacher's union plan). P-Space has a Canadian Bank providing obviously some significant portion of its funding. Canadian banks & institutional investors are well known to be amongst the most conservative out there.

Interesting...

Paul
RpK had significant Canadian funding available to them but the COTS rules disallowed it, mandating "domestic funding only". Is there any such restrictions on the COTS Rebid?

From what I understand this would have made Rpk a majority Canadian owned company therefore disqualifying them from COTS. Planetspace is still a Majority US owned company and the majority of investment will come frm US sources. Even US investment banks owned by BMO. This way they will not have the Rpk problem.

SpacemanSpiff · « **Reply #27 on:** 01/21/2008 08:27 pm »

We used to turn out low fidelity mock-ups like that in a week or two at the commercial aero company I worked at. Doesn't amount to too much...that certainly is just shell (I zoomed in on it...).

edkyle99 · « **Reply #28 on:** 01/21/2008 08:58 pm »

For what it's worth, I've been trying to model this ATK COTS Demo Booster (or Athena III, or whatever it might be called) and I'm having trouble coming up with 6 tonnes to an ISS inclined low earth orbit. I get 6 tonnes to a 28.5 degree LEO from the Cape, but only 5.1-ish tonnes to a 51.6 degree orbit.

Part of the problem is guessing the properties of the new "Castor 30" motor. My first guess was to divide all of the Castor 120 masses by four, which makes sense from a naming perspective but only gives me 5.7 tonnes to a 28 deg LEO. A 35% scaled Castor 120 provides the 6 tonne result.

I may have guessed low on the removal of SRB recovery hardware. Each SRB has 3.511 tonnes of parachutes, so I guessed that the ATK COTS booster would be relieved of at least 4 tonnes dry mass compared to an STS launch vehicle.

Here are my assumed masses.

Stage 1 Total: 366 tonnes
Stage 1 Propellant: 311.79 tonnes
Stage 1 Avg ISP: 259.4 sec
Stage 2 Total: 53 tonnes
Stage 2 Propellant: 48.95 tonnes
Stage 2 ISP: 286 sec
Stage 3 Total: 18.55 tonnes
Stage 3 Propellant: 17.13 tonnes
Stage 3 ISP: 293 sec
Stage 4 Total: 0.714 tonnes
Stage 4 Propellant: 0.36 tonnes
Stage 4 ISP: 222 sec

- Ed Kyle

Zap83 · « **Reply #29 on:** 01/21/2008 09:19 pm »

Sorry Spiff, I didn't mean to imply that was the actual spacecraft but rather the configuration that they are proposing. Short, capsule like, biconic on the wake side, etc...I just hadn't seen anything to date.

Lampyridae · « **Reply #30 on:** 01/21/2008 11:30 pm »

Interesting to see how they would launch a manned COTS II capsule on a 2.5 seg SRB. Would this not result in the same thrust oscillation issues? Wouldn't this wind up being an Ares 1/2?

ryan mccabe · « **Reply #31 on:** 01/21/2008 11:31 pm »

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Jason Davies - 21/1/2008 8:22 AM

2.5 Segment? That's interesting.

The SRB segments consist of two smaller segments that are joined at the factory, hence factory joint. Those pre-joined segments are then shipped to KSC where they are mated to form the lovable 4-segment booster.

So I assume we're just talking about 2 normal segments and one additional segment without it's factory counterpart?

aero313 · « **Reply #32 on:** 01/22/2008 01:12 am »

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Lampyridae - 21/1/2008 7:30 PM

Interesting to see how they would launch a manned COTS II capsule on a 2.5 seg SRB. Would this not result in the same thrust oscillation issues? Wouldn't this wind up being an Ares 1/2?

From Post #233517:

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aero313 - 21/1/2008 11:30 AM

As for the vehicle, can you say "resonant burn"? There was an article in Sunday's Washington Post that talked about the resonant burn problems with Ares I. This vehicle will have the same problem. The Castor 120 has a 50 hz resonance. I assume the 2.5 segment first stage will have about a 30-35 hz resonance.

Smoothie · « **Reply #33 on:** 01/22/2008 01:49 am »

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aero313 - 21/1/2008 9:12 AM

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Lampyridae - 21/1/2008 7:30 PM

Interesting to see how they would launch a manned COTS II capsule on a 2.5 seg SRB. Would this not result in the same thrust oscillation issues? Wouldn't this wind up being an Ares 1/2?

From Post #233517:

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aero313 - 21/1/2008 11:30 AM

As for the vehicle, can you say "resonant burn"? There was an article in Sunday's Washington Post that talked about the resonant burn problems with Ares I. This vehicle will have the same problem. The Castor 120 has a 50 hz resonance. I assume the 2.5 segment first stage will have about a 30-35 hz resonance.

Yeah, And so did the Redstone and the Atlas and the Saturn-V.... They will solve it like they always do.

Jim · « **Reply #34 on:** 01/22/2008 03:27 am »

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Smoothie - 21/1/2008 9:49 PM

Yeah, And so did the Redstone and the Atlas and the Saturn-V.... They will solve it like they always do.

incorrect. It was on Titan II and Saturn V. Those were liquid systems, not the same problem as for solids.

edkyle99 · « **Reply #35 on:** 01/22/2008 08:52 pm »

Chris, two questions.

1. Do you know if the reported payload mass figures for the GTO, TLI, and Mars Sciences missions assume a composite case first stage? (My guess is that they do.)

2. I see that ATK provided low and high numbers for the LEO payloads, which I assume are for the standard steel case and proposed composite case first stages. Do you know the orbital parameters for these payload masses, specifically inclination?

Thanks!

- Ed Kyle

mike robel · « **Reply #36 on:** 01/22/2008 10:39 pm »

I would imagine that ATK will not be able to use current shuttle SRBs segments for this booster, so they must be intending to manufacture new casings? Ostensibly, these will be expendible?

Antares · « **Reply #37 on:** 01/23/2008 06:14 am »

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clongton - 21/1/2008 2:24 PM
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HIP2BSQRE - 21/1/2008 3:20 PM
COTS 1.5

4.2 Eligible Participants
The following entities may submit proposals under this announcement: an entity organized under the laws of the United States or of a State, which is:

A. More than 50 percent owned by United States nationals; or
Looks like Canadian money is out again. That's kinda sad, and typical of the shortsightedness of the people who are running the country and it's agencies.

Sigh. These restrictions come from the Commercial Space Acts and Commercial Space Launch Acts, variously passed and amended over the last 20 years. COTS is just obeying the laws passed by Congress, generally a good idea. Forgive me if that was known, but such awareness was not apparent in the words posted.

Chris Bergin · « **Reply #38 on:** 01/23/2008 07:52 am »

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edkyle99 - 22/1/2008 9:52 PM

Chris, two questions.

1. Do you know if the reported payload mass figures for the GTO, TLI, and Mars Sciences missions assume a composite case first stage? (My guess is that they do.)

2. I see that ATK provided low and high numbers for the LEO payloads, which I assume are for the standard steel case and proposed composite case first stages. Do you know the orbital parameters for these payload masses, specifically inclination?

Thanks!

- Ed Kyle

I'll send an e-mail off to ATK today and report back.

Smoothie · « **Reply #39 on:** 01/23/2008 12:18 pm »

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Antares - 22/1/2008 2:14 PM

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clongton - 21/1/2008 2:24 PM
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HIP2BSQRE - 21/1/2008 3:20 PM
COTS 1.5

4.2 Eligible Participants
The following entities may submit proposals under this announcement: an entity organized under the laws of the United States or of a State, which is:

A. More than 50 percent owned by United States nationals; or
Looks like Canadian money is out again. That's kinda sad, and typical of the shortsightedness of the people who are running the country and it's agencies.
Sigh. These restrictions come from the Commercial Space Acts and Commercial Space Launch Acts, variously passed and amended over the last 20 years. COTS is just obeying the laws passed by Congress, generally a good idea. Forgive me if that was known, but such awareness was not apparent in the words posted.

You guys have it all wrong.... A company must be more then 50 percent owned by US Nationals in order to participate in COTS. It says nothing about funding in that statement whatsoever.