Author Topic: ATK's new vehicle to provide multi-access options (Read 27357 times)

Chris Bergin · « **on:** 01/21/2008 10:53 am »

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/content/?cid=5337

Resources attached (pressers and hi res images)

eeergo · « **Reply #1 on:** 01/21/2008 11:20 am »

Another Athena?

Well, it could certainly be a good alternative to Delta II (although I'm under the impression the ride will be a bit tougher on those solids) but let's hope it gets more flights than the other two versions have...

Chris Bergin · « **Reply #2 on:** 01/21/2008 11:35 am »

They've not named it yet, but when I was asking around (as the story was different orginally!) people referenced it as Athena III.

kevin-rf · « **Reply #3 on:** 01/21/2008 11:48 am »

So it is possible to make "new" composite shuttle casings to replace the current heritage metal ones.

How long before those end up in the Ares mix to increase Ares I performance? Wider longer burning solid that gives Ares I more delta V anyone?

Scotty · « **Reply #4 on:** 01/21/2008 12:04 pm »

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11539&start=1

Funny that a three segment SRM for Stumpy would have cost too much and taken too long to develope with Government funding.
But, ATK can whip up a two and a half segment SRM for their COTS proposal out of their own pocket and do it fast.
Something does not add up here.
So, what else is new? :bleh:

wannamoonbase · « **Reply #5 on:** 01/21/2008 12:07 pm »

Interesting. The more options the better the ultimate solution I suppose. With ATKs connections within NASA you have to think this has a strong likelihood of selection.

kevin-rf · « **Reply #6 on:** 01/21/2008 12:08 pm »

Why open your own pocket when someone else has already offered to pick up the check.

Jason Davies · « **Reply #7 on:** 01/21/2008 01:22 pm »

2.5 Segment? That's interesting.

Jim · « **Reply #8 on:** 01/21/2008 01:22 pm »

Quote

kevin-rf - 21/1/2008 7:48 AM

1. So it is possible to make "new" composite shuttle casings to replace the current heritage metal ones.

2. How long before those end up in the Ares mix to increase Ares I performance? Wider longer burning solid that gives Ares I more delta V anyone?

1. Always been possible

2. Never if NASA is to continue preaching that the SRB is "safe", which depends on the past flight records. A new solid is not as safe and even more risky than a liquid booster.

Zap83 · « **Reply #9 on:** 01/21/2008 03:01 pm »

In the high-bay picture, there is a short, squatty spacecraft down at the far end. I'm thinking this is PSpace's vehicle.

clongton · « **Reply #10 on:** 01/21/2008 03:04 pm »

Quote

Zap83 - 21/1/2008 11:01 AM

In the high-bay picture, there is a short, squatty spacecraft down at the far end. I'm thinking this is PSpace's vehicle.

Sure looks like one, doesn't it.

William Barton · « **Reply #11 on:** 01/21/2008 03:13 pm »

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Jim - 21/1/2008 9:22 AM

Quote
kevin-rf - 21/1/2008 7:48 AM

1. So it is possible to make "new" composite shuttle casings to replace the current heritage metal ones.

2. How long before those end up in the Ares mix to increase Ares I performance? Wider longer burning solid that gives Ares I more delta V anyone?

1. Always been possible

2. Never if NASA is to continue preaching that the SRB is "safe", which depends on the past flight records. A new solid is not as safe and even more risky than a liquid booster.

Some while back I wondered if it were possible to recapture the technology of the Vandenberg Shuttle wound filament casings, so this seems equivalent to me (ragardless of how close the actual technology is). If Athena III comes to fruition, it would have a flight history by the time Ares V is in advanced development. That would develop some LOC/LOM numbers by then. I don't know how much a five-seg composite SRB would help Ares V payload, or Ares I when and if, but maybe Ares I would begin flying the "ISS Orion" with an Ares IB for the "Lunar Orion" way down the road.

Jim · « **Reply #12 on:** 01/21/2008 03:27 pm »

Most SRM's are composite case now days. The former Titan-IV SRMU was a 3 segment composite case

aero313 · « **Reply #13 on:** 01/21/2008 03:30 pm »

Considering that ATK developed and built the composite FWC cases for the shuttle, why would these not be the same designs, tooling, etc.

As for the vehicle, can you say "resonant burn"? There was an article in Sunday's Washington Post that talked about the resonant burn problems with Ares I. This vehicle will have the same problem. The Castor 120 has a 50 hz resonance. I assume the 2.5 segment first stage will have about a 30-35 hz resonance.

Interesting thing on the Lockheed OAM - it was so structurally inefficient that the Athena I had more performance WITHOUT the OAM.

clongton · « **Reply #14 on:** 01/21/2008 03:45 pm »

Chris,
ATK lifted the embargo so you could publish, but it's not up on their website yet. Any idea when that will happen?

Chris Bergin · « **Reply #15 on:** 01/21/2008 04:03 pm »

No idea. I'm guessing ATK actually know what they are doing, by getting media interested in writing about it. Those that put it up on their site and then release it to media tend to find media don't bother.

Wouldn't surprise me as ATK's main PAO (George) is the best PAO in the biz if you ask me.

clongton · « **Reply #16 on:** 01/21/2008 04:11 pm »

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Chris Bergin - 21/1/2008 12:03 PM

No idea. I'm guessing ATK actually know what they are doing, by getting media interested in writing about it. Those that put it up on their site and then release it to media tend to find media don't bother.

Wouldn't surprise me as ATK's main PAO (George) is the best PAO in the biz if you ask me.

Any chance we could get him to salvage NASAs PAO office?

Antares · « **Reply #17 on:** 01/21/2008 05:27 pm »

Also, the business case is different now. The analysis of future Delta II cost and the decision not to bear that cost had not been made when the stumpy boosters were suggested. Now that there's a market gap in the payload class for a typical NASA science mission, the smart money is trying to fill it. Wishful thinking: whichever rockets end up in that niche can cut costs to the point that NASA, and new customers due to the lower price point, can support two vehicles and have a little competition for once.

tankmodeler · « **Reply #18 on:** 01/21/2008 05:39 pm »

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clongton - 21/1/2008 11:04 AM

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Zap83 - 21/1/2008 11:01 AM

In the high-bay picture, there is a short, squatty spacecraft down at the far end. I'm thinking this is PSpace's vehicle.
Sure looks like one, doesn't it.

If you take a look at the banner over the vehicle, the third entity up there, BMO, is the Canandian "Bank of Montreal". So, RpK had a huge stake from the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan (Canadian provincial teacher's union plan). P-Space has a Canadian Bank providing obviously some significant portion of its funding. Canadian banks & institutional investors are well known to be amongst the most conservative out there.

Interesting...

Paul

clongton · « **Reply #19 on:** 01/21/2008 05:44 pm »

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tankmodeler - 21/1/2008 1:39 PM

Quote
clongton - 21/1/2008 11:04 AM

Quote
Zap83 - 21/1/2008 11:01 AM

In the high-bay picture, there is a short, squatty spacecraft down at the far end. I'm thinking this is PSpace's vehicle.
Sure looks like one, doesn't it.
If you take a look at the banner over the vehicle, the third entity up there, BMO, is the Canandian "Bank of Montreal". So, RpK had a huge stake from the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan (Canadian provincial teacher's union plan). P-Space has a Canadian Bank providing obviously some significant portion of its funding. Canadian banks & institutional investors are well known to be amongst the most conservative out there.

Interesting...

Paul

RpK had significant Canadian funding available to them but the COTS rules disallowed it, mandating "domestic funding only". Is there any such restrictions on the COTS Rebid?