Author Topic: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says  (Read 15273 times)

Offline Blackstar

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #40 on: 01/17/2008 08:52 PM »
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A_M_Swallow - 17/1/2008  12:54 PM
No the EU thinks Galileo will generate lots of manufacturing jobs selling GPS receivers to the general public.  That electronics manufacturing jobs moved to Asia never to return in the 1960s is something the EUs 1950s mentality cannot understand.

They may be _claiming_ that in public, but I don't think it's why the government leaders want it.  Right now there is nothing that prevents European industry from building GPS receivers.  They don't need Galileo to do that.  But the Galileo satellites will only be built in Europe, so it is European aerospace companies that are help fueling this.

Offline ckiki lwai

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #41 on: 01/17/2008 10:41 PM »
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Blackstar - 17/1/2008  5:44 PM

The Europeans are entitled to spend their money any way that they want.  I don't think this is the best way for them to do it, however.  What they really need is a better system for military intel, so that they don't have to rely upon the Americans for it, and don't complain when the Americans don't immediately provide the intel that they want (what happened during Kosovo).  However, the problem is that doing this is essentially funding a military system, and so it is less popular than funding something that is viewed as a civilian system with military uses (Galileo).  
We don't have a European army, spy satellites would have to be funded on national level not on European level.

Maybe the Americans should drop their GPS and use our Galileo satellites, and spend the money on education and social welfare. ;)
Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Offline meiza

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #42 on: 01/17/2008 11:05 PM »
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Blackstar - 17/1/2008  4:44 PM

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Chris Bergin - 17/1/2008  2:48 AM

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Sphereion - 17/1/2008  8:35 AM
No. America does what it wants and expects the world to do what America wants.

You're losing context there. His full sentence was:

"Well, I'm sure you have no problem with Americans wasting money on stupid things. After all, it's our money, and it's your money; we can do whatever we want with it, right?"

Not sure how anyone can draw exception to that.

I think he was making a sarcastic anti-American comment, and I have no problem with that.

The Europeans are entitled to spend their money any way that they want.  I don't think this is the best way for them to do it, however.  What they really need is a better system for military intel, so that they don't have to rely upon the Americans for it, and don't complain when the Americans don't immediately provide the intel that they want (what happened during Kosovo).  However, the problem is that doing this is essentially funding a military system, and so it is less popular than funding something that is viewed as a civilian system with military uses (Galileo).  

Plus, I think Galileo is viewed as a bigger gravy train, because it requires a lot of satellites (as opposed to a few intel satellites) and so the launch providers can sell more rockets and the satellite builders can build more satellites and therefore the corporations are happy.

Especially since it's not a commercial system where the builder is selected according to cost... :(

Offline Blackstar

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #43 on: 01/17/2008 11:50 PM »
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ckiki lwai - 17/1/2008  5:41 PM

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Blackstar - 17/1/2008  5:44 PM
We don't have a European army, spy satellites would have to be funded on national level not on European level.

Maybe the Americans should drop their GPS and use our Galileo satellites, and spend the money on education and social welfare. ;)

Europe could call them "information gathering satellites" and insist that they're non-military.  Japan does that.

We already spend quite a bit of money on education and social welfare.

Offline Thomas ESA

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #44 on: 01/18/2008 07:02 AM »
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Blackstar - 14/1/2008  11:33 AM

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edkyle99 - 14/1/2008  10:46 AM
When Galileo was proposed, the U.S. response was to recommended that the system either not be deployed or, if it was, that the U.S. be allowed to "jam" it when needed!

Actually, the US proposal was that the Europeans put in the ability to turn it off in event of hostilities.  As a US official who was involved in the negotiations at the time once told me "Everybody knows that if we decide it is necessary, we _will_ jam it.  We were just trying to be polite."

IF that was even true, we would tell the Americans to walk out and close the door behind them, promptly! They would not dare jam Galileo also.

Offline ckiki lwai

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #45 on: 01/18/2008 08:39 AM »
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Blackstar - 18/1/2008  1:50 AM

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ckiki lwai- 17/1/2008  5:44 PM
We don't have a European army, spy satellites would have to be funded on national level not on European level.

Maybe the Americans should drop their GPS and use our Galileo satellites, and spend the money on education and social welfare. ;)

Europe could call them "information gathering satellites" and insist that they're non-military.  Japan does that.
[/QUOTE]
That would be a much bigger lie than what you think Galileo is!

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We already spend quite a bit of money on education and social welfare.

That's why it's such an important issue in elections? At least we get that impression here in Europe.
Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Offline SimonShuttle

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #46 on: 01/18/2008 11:13 AM »
This reminds me a bit of Star Wars (sorry Jim :) ) where the Americans said they would be able to change the sheild to protect whoever they were getting alone with at the time. Thankfully, we always have :)

Offline Nate_Trost

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #47 on: 01/18/2008 03:19 PM »
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Thomas ESA - 18/1/2008  2:02 AM
IF that was even true, we would tell the Americans to walk out and close the door behind them, promptly! They would not dare jam Galileo also.

In a theoretical future conflict with China? Yes, I'm pretty sure the USAF would.

Offline ckiki lwai

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #48 on: 01/19/2008 07:31 AM »
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Nate_Trost - 18/1/2008  5:19 PM

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Thomas ESA - 18/1/2008  2:02 AM
IF that was even true, we would tell the Americans to walk out and close the door behind them, promptly! They would not dare jam Galileo also.

In a theoretical future conflict with China? Yes, I'm pretty sure the USAF would.

Not if one the US allies uses Galileo for its weapons...
Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Offline Blackstar

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #49 on: 01/19/2008 11:43 AM »
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ckiki lwai - 19/1/2008  2:31 AM

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Nate_Trost - 18/1/2008  5:19 PM

In a theoretical future conflict with China? Yes, I'm pretty sure the USAF would.

Not if one the US allies uses Galileo for its weapons...

A-Which is exactly what the US is wishing to avoid.

B-And it depends upon which ally, really.

In response to the previous comment that the US would not do this, presumably because it would anger the Europeans, don't you think that recent experience with President Bush demonstrates that the United States will ignore European government opinion if the president considers the national security issues to be important enough?  

In other words, do you believe that somebody like George Bush would _not_ jam Galileo?

Offline Martin FL

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #50 on: 01/19/2008 12:07 PM »
There isn't a European Government is there? It's national governments?

Online Chris Bergin

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Martin FL - 19/1/2008  1:07 PM

There isn't a European Government is there? It's national governments?

EU (European Union), which includes the European Parliament etc. etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union

But power is held with the sovereign states/countries. See the individual choices on joining the war against terror. Wasn't a "European" decision.

Would become interesting if there was a big split vote on whatever could kick start such a US action - notably because the UK and a few others would likely align with a US position. US action could change that.

"Europe" is a very diverse and complex animal - and not all that representative apart from on the map.

Offline Martin FL

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #52 on: 01/19/2008 12:23 PM »
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Chris Bergin - 19/1/2008  7:13 AM

But power is held with the sovereign states/countries. See the individual choices on joining the war against terror. Wasn't a "European" decision.


Yeah, the French left us out to dry on that  :angry:

Online Chris Bergin

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Martin FL - 19/1/2008  1:23 PM

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Chris Bergin - 19/1/2008  7:13 AM

But power is held with the sovereign states/countries. See the individual choices on joining the war against terror. Wasn't a "European" decision.


Yeah, the French left us out to dry on that  :angry:

Quick one before we avoid going off track, but the French sent 2,000 troops into Afghanistan after 9/11. Nothing close to the British involvement that is still ongoing (and the offensive is going well), but more than - for example - Australia (smaller military, granted) for reference.

Offline pierre

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #54 on: 01/19/2008 01:26 PM »
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Martin FL - 19/1/2008  2:07 PM

There isn't a European Government is there? It's national governments?

The thing that is most similar to an European government is probably the European Commission. But it isn't yet equivalent to a full European government, even if it had increased powers over the last decade (Amsterdam and Nice treaties) and will probably gain more power with the Lisbon Treaty which includes the "High Representative" (the Secretary of State) in the Commission and will hopefully simplify a bit the relations between the EU and the rest of the world.

Back on topic: one of the reasons why Galileo is so important is that it's the first big space program of the EU, in collaboration with ESA: all previous programs were directed only by ESA, which is independent from the EU (even if there are stronger ties created between the two organizations in the last few years).

P.S.: a small factlet about the war-on-terror thing: there are currently more troops in Afghanistan from EU states (approximately 21,700) than from the USA (15,000).

Offline ckiki lwai

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #55 on: 01/19/2008 04:04 PM »
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Blackstar - 19/1/2008  1:43 PM

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ckiki lwai - 19/1/2008  2:31 AM

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Nate_Trost - 18/1/2008  5:19 PM

In a theoretical future conflict with China? Yes, I'm pretty sure the USAF would.

Not if one the US allies uses Galileo for its weapons...

A-Which is exactly what the US is wishing to avoid.

B-And it depends upon which ally, really.

In response to the previous comment that the US would not do this, presumably because it would anger the Europeans, don't you think that recent experience with President Bush demonstrates that the United States will ignore European government opinion if the president considers the national security issues to be important enough?  

In other words, do you believe that somebody like George Bush would _not_ jam Galileo?

But what would be the tactical advantage of jamming Galileo in the first place?
The Chinese would be foolish to base their weapons on it...
Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Online A_M_Swallow

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #56 on: 01/19/2008 06:06 PM »
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ckiki lwai - 19/1/2008  5:04 PM

But what would be the tactical advantage of jamming Galileo in the first place?
The Chinese would be foolish to base their weapons on it...

Over the years people have done lots of foolish things with their weapons.

The advantage to the Chinese of using GPS receivers is that they are cheap since they will be made in China.  In a Chinese-Russian war the USA is unlikely to jam Galileo.

Offline Blackstar

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #57 on: 01/20/2008 02:18 AM »
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A_M_Swallow - 19/1/2008  1:06 PM

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ckiki lwai - 19/1/2008  5:04 PM

But what would be the tactical advantage of jamming Galileo in the first place?
The Chinese would be foolish to base their weapons on it...

Over the years people have done lots of foolish things with their weapons.

The advantage to the Chinese of using GPS receivers is that they are cheap since they will be made in China.  In a Chinese-Russian war the USA is unlikely to jam Galileo.

Well, keep in mind that in the recent past China expressed interest in being part of Galileo.  So it was entirely possible that China could have planned for equipping its weapons to use Galileo as well.  And the US would have sought the ability to jam Galileo.

But I think another possible scenario is that Europe fields Galileo, France develops weapons that rely upon Galileo which it then exports.  Thus, the United States would still seek a way to jam Galileo, because it could always end up facing weapons that rely upon it.

Offline ADC9

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #58 on: 01/20/2008 10:50 AM »
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Blackstar - 19/1/2008  9:18 PM

But I think another possible scenario is that Europe fields Galileo, France develops weapons that rely upon Galileo which it then exports.  Thus, the United States would still seek a way to jam Galileo, because it could always end up facing weapons that rely upon it.

If France does not deem whatever country it wishes to do business with as a terrorist state, then France would be within rights to do so. If by example, then the right would be given to act against a U.S system for their funding of Isreal's war machine, and the home of the 9/11 bombers, Saudi Arabia.

You would have to complain via the United Nations and I assume no one would back your wish. If the U.S then ignored the UN, as usual, any action would recieve a reaction. Does the U.S really want to risk santions from the E.U? over a third of the world's GDP? Would the U.S want to risk having all its bases kicked out of Europe?

So no, the U.S can't threaten France with such things.  Jam Galileo and the U.S loses.

Offline Justin Space

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #59 on: 01/20/2008 11:02 AM »
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ADC9 - 20/1/2008  5:50 AM

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Blackstar - 19/1/2008  9:18 PM

But I think another possible scenario is that Europe fields Galileo, France develops weapons that rely upon Galileo which it then exports.  Thus, the United States would still seek a way to jam Galileo, because it could always end up facing weapons that rely upon it.

If France does not deem whatever country it wishes to do business with as a terrorist state, then France would be within rights to do so. If by example, then the right would be given to act against a U.S system for their funding of Isreal's war machine, and the home of the 9/11 bombers, Saudi Arabia.

You would have to complain via the United Nations and I assume no one would back your wish. If the U.S then ignored the UN, as usual, any action would recieve a reaction. Does the U.S really want to risk santions from the E.U? over a third of the world's GDP? Would the U.S want to risk having all its bases kicked out of Europe?

So no, the U.S can't threaten France with such things.  Jam Galileo and the U.S loses.

Are there any US bases in France? I think you'd find that the US bases in the UK would not be removed on French orders ;)

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