Author Topic: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says  (Read 15403 times)

Offline Felix

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Berlin - The cost of the European Union's homegrown satellite navigation system, Galileo, is set to skyrocket, the German magazine Der Spiegel reported Saturday. Instead of costing 3.4 billion euros (5 billion dollars), as budgeted by Brussels, it was bound to cost at least 5 billion euros, and even 10 billion euros (nearly 15 billion dollars) was possible, the weekly said.

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/172698.html


Offline Blackstar

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #1 on: 01/13/2008 01:57 PM »
Without knowing the specifics of the story (the link is not to the original story in Der Spiegel), I can still say that this should not be surprising.  Galileo was always based on a number of lies and it was clear from the start that people were saying one thing to get it funded even though they knew that it was untrue and they would eventually have to change the plan.  

The biggest lie was that it would fund itself commercially.  I did not meet anybody who believed that.  For starters, it would be competing against a free system, GPS.  Why would anybody pay for something that they can already get for free?  The incentives that supposedly made Galileo better than GPS just were not believable--higher accuracy and a guaranteed reliability.  Neither one is really necessary for the overwhelming majority of customers.

I also think that they lied about American opposition to Galileo.  They played the nationalism card--well, the anti-Americanism card--to whip up support.  But the US was never as opposed to Galileo as they claimed.

So now it's going to cost more?  That's entirely consistent with their strategy of lying about the original costs and lying about American opposition.  All the lies have been intended to fund this system.

Offline meiza

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #2 on: 01/13/2008 02:37 PM »
Thanks for your input blackstar.
We need in-depth and realistic discussion about Galileo.

Offline Felix

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #3 on: 01/13/2008 03:00 PM »

Quote
Blackstar - 13/1/2008  3:57 the link is not to the original story in Der Spiegel

The story is part of this week's print edition of Der Spiegel  (release on Monday). Sources are a study undertaken by German goverment and a Galileo "expert".

And by the way the  "nationalism card"  was a very easy / obvious move with Bush's Iraq nonsense policy and with Rumsfeld talking about "Old Europe" back in 2003.

 


Offline Blackstar

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #4 on: 01/13/2008 08:46 PM »
Quote
Felix - 13/1/2008  10:00 AM
And by the way the  "nationalism card"  was a very easy / obvious move with Bush's Iraq nonsense policy and with Rumsfeld talking about "Old Europe" back in 2003.

Well, it actually started in 1999, during the Clinton administration.  They started claiming that the US was opposed to Galileo because the US was standing in the way of Galileo taking some of the frequency spectrum.  This was before one of the upcoming international frequency conferences.  The US insisted that it needed that spectrum for GPS III and the Europeans claimed that this was simply a ruse, intended to block Galileo.  They used that to obtain European government funding.

From what I've heard, the US government was never opposed to Galileo in international forums.  But there were many people in the US government who thought that Galileo was not in American interests.  The reason is that the official European position was that Galileo would not be used for military purposes.  The US had spent a lot of effort getting Europe to agree to use GPS for NATO, especially after Kosovo.  The US was worried that once Galileo was started, European governments would switch their militaries over to it, and NATO would no longer have compatible weapons.

Two countries were important in this: France and Britain.  Britain was opposed to Galileo because they had just bought a lot of US GPS weapons and they did not want to be put in the position of having to switch to Galileo.  France declared that its military would use Galileo.  Of course, France also stood to benefit the most from Galileo, because they would sell all the rocket launches.

NATO was also opposed to Galileo as well.  This created a weird situation where European officials in NATO were opposed to Galileo, while their fellow officials in their respective governments were in favor of it.

Several years ago I heard a talk by Clinton's Deputy Secretary of Defense who admitted that the Clinton Department of Defense made a key mistake with respect to Galileo:  they insisted that they needed the spectrum for GPS III, and then they failed to fund GPS III.  This allowed the Europeans to claim that the Americans were blocking Galileo unfairly.

So while European governments might have gained more traction by playing the anti-American card in 2003, they started doing that long before.  Not everything can be blamed on George Bush.

Offline meiza

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #5 on: 01/13/2008 09:25 PM »
I'm no expert by far, but I think the basic first cut reasoning goes that GPS is a strategic asset and US can shut it down in the future without warning so it's better to have your own.
The same thing has happened with European and US relations before when the US has advised Europe not to get self sufficiency on space launches for example...

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #6 on: 01/13/2008 10:14 PM »
Quote
meiza - 13/1/2008  4:25 PM

I'm no expert by far, but I think the basic first cut reasoning goes that GPS is a strategic asset and US can shut it down in the future without warning so it's better to have your own.

They've claimed that, but after the Persian Gulf War (1991) nobody believes that the US would shut it down except during a major war (by "shut it down" we both mean decrease the accuracy of the civilian signal).

There are a lot of reasons that Galileo got started, and while some people claim that this is one of them, I don't think it was a main one at all.  The other reasons:

-corporate welfare (Arianespace wanted to sell rocket launches, others wanted to build satellites)
-technology policy (desire to expand European capabilities)
-military issues

After Kosovo, Europe really needed to invest in better space systems and they realized it.  But the only thing that they could jointly agree on was a civilian system that could have military uses.  Other countries have individually pursued more dedicated military systems, like Germany building radarsats.

Offline British NASA

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #7 on: 01/13/2008 10:20 PM »
Hilarious. Another stupid "European" mess. If Brussels isn't demanding we return to the dark ages with their stupid French and German rulebook, it's wasting money like this.

Eight billion pounds a year and what do we get out of it? A load of immigrents from eastern Europe.

We need to get out of Europe NOW!  :angry:

Offline Chris Bergin

Quote
British NASA - 13/1/2008  11:20 PM

Hilarious. Another stupid "European" mess. If Brussels isn't demanding we return to the dark ages with their stupid French and German rulebook, it's wasting money like this.

Eight billion pounds a year and what do we get out of it? A load of immigrents from eastern Europe.

We need to get out of Europe NOW!  :angry:

Offline ckiki lwai

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #9 on: 01/14/2008 07:19 AM »
There was a documentary about Galileo a couple of weeks ago on the Belgian television.
In the documentary they showed a manager of a company that develops software for GPS,
he said Galileo would be a great benefit for his company because he could greatly increase the precision of his systems by combining GPS and Galileo.
Back in the beginning of this decade a lot of companies were interested in Galileo because global navigation was a growing business.
The problem were the European leaders who couldn't agree on "who would get what".
The Germans would pay the most money and wanted to have the control center built Germany, but if Germany had one, Italy wanted to have one too, and if Italy got one, Spain wanted to have one too...
In the end, it took them too long to agree and the commercial investors lost their interest, so the European governments decided fund it entirely on there own.
Germany would pay so much extra money that they got the control center.

Europe could do great things, if we knew how to work together...
Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Offline elmarko

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #10 on: 01/14/2008 08:37 AM »
Chris has singlehandedly won the thread. :)

See, I like the idea of having another system. I'm all for projects with increased benefits and what not, but I am completely not convinced with the management and bureaucracy of anyone in the EU.

You only have to read Private Eye to see their track record with things.

Offline mikes

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #11 on: 01/14/2008 11:16 AM »
Spiegel now has the story online
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,528441,00.html

I don't really see the problem with Galileo co-existing with GPS and Glonass. Surely having redundant systems that are managed completely independently is a good thing for a critical service? If we're to have more autonomous vehicles in our airspace (and presumably on the ground eventually) I'd be happier with one less SPOF.

Whether it's worth the money is a whole 'nother question.


Offline Blackstar

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #12 on: 01/14/2008 11:26 AM »
Quote
mikes - 14/1/2008  6:16 AM

Spiegel now has the story online
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,528441,00.html

I don't really see the problem with Galileo co-existing with GPS and Glonass. Surely having redundant systems that are managed completely independently is a good thing for a critical service? If we're to have more autonomous vehicles in our airspace (and presumably on the ground eventually) I'd be happier with one less SPOF.

Whether it's worth the money is a whole 'nother question.

Well, as an American, I have no problems with Europeans being taxed for an expensive system that is not really necessary.  Go right ahead and waste money.

There are some policy issues, however. A key one is frequency allocation.  They're all fighting for the same bit of spectrum.  Another issue concerns the compatibility of ground systems.  The US, and NATO members, are concerned that in order to justify the cost of Galileo, European member governments will make their militaries use it and not GPS.  That will hurt the interoperability of systems.

Offline Blackstar

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #13 on: 01/14/2008 11:28 AM »
Quote
ckiki lwai - 14/1/2008  2:19 AM
Back in the beginning of this decade a lot of companies were interested in Galileo because global navigation was a growing business.
The problem were the European leaders who couldn't agree on "who would get what".
The Germans would pay the most money and wanted to have the control center built Germany, but if Germany had one, Italy wanted to have one too, and if Italy got one, Spain wanted to have one too...

I'm actually amazed that Europe as a whole (for instance ESA) is able to get anything done considering that everybody insists on a piece of the pie.

I think that either Italy or Spain has a second control center that is unnecessary, but they wanted it.

All of this highlights one of my earlier points--Galileo is less about providing a needed service (GPS does that already) than it is about sending money to big corporations.  It is corporate welfare.

Offline Analyst

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #14 on: 01/14/2008 12:03 PM »
Quote
Blackstar - 14/1/2008  1:26 PM

Well, as an American, I have no problems with Europeans being taxed for an expensive system that is not really necessary.  Go right ahead and waste money.

The US has not proven to be a reliable partner in many matters. I only name a few spaceflight related:

- launching commercial satellites from Europe in the 1970ies (which was part of the reason for Ariane),
- Spacelab,
- US part (second spacecraft) of the now Ulysses mission,
- AMS.

Some programs only barely survived, less capable than planned:
- Cassini,
- SOFIA,
- ISS.

So I don't see Galileo as a waste of money. It is a insurance policy, primarely civilian. It could be better managed, sure. But I am ready to pay this little price of international cooperation.

I find it a little odd some people are seeing a coming war with China and find this even probable (and the US has to prepare for this possibility and spend billions to do so). So the US thinks bad of any other nation, but on the other hand thinks everyone should trust the US. The US would be the first to shut down GPS if it is in its national (security) interest. And what defines national security changes quite often: Nations and people change from allies to enemies (and back) within a few years in Washington: Iraq and Saddam Hussein is the most prominent, but not the only example. And yes, I remember "old Europe" talk too.

So please let us waste our money. Ariane is quite successful after a "waste" in the 1970ies, Airbus too.

Analyst

Offline Jim

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #15 on: 01/14/2008 12:27 PM »
Quote
Analyst - 14/1/2008  8:03 AM

The US has not proven to be a reliable partner in many matters.


I will ignore that comment since the items you list are insignificant and pales when the US has been the most reliable partner in NATO.

The US can always use WWII and the Cold War as examples of good partnership.  And it won't get over used.


Offline Blackstar

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #16 on: 01/14/2008 01:52 PM »
Quote
Analyst - 14/1/2008  7:03 AM
The US has not proven to be a reliable partner in many matters. I only name a few spaceflight related:

- launching commercial satellites from Europe in the 1970ies (which was part of the reason for Ariane),
- Spacelab,
- US part (second spacecraft) of the now Ulysses mission,
- AMS.

You confuse "reliable partner" with "willing to completely suspend its self interest and do what Europe wants."  The two are not the same thing.

Your examples leave a lot to be desired (SOFIA?) and I could address each of them in turn.  But I'm rather tired of the complaining about the International Solar Polar Mission (which became Ulysses).  Europeans have complained for decades that the US pulled out of the other half of the deal.  But when it came time to build Ulysses, the US provided:

-a launch vehicle
-RTGs
-mission operations support including the DSN
-instruments

If you calculate up the final bill for the mission, the United States paid most of it.  So Europe has essentially been complaining that the Americans only paid 65% of the costs instead of 85%.  Such complaints ring a little hollow to me.

Offline meiza

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #17 on: 01/14/2008 01:58 PM »
Regarding the spiegel article, I wonder what the cost structure of GPS is... I mean, how big part was the development cost and how much is spent on satellites, launches and ground ops.

I don't like the talk, people either demand that it should not be done because it's so expensive or should be done no matter the cost. We should also look at HOW it could be done, to make it cheaper and faster and better... More competence based contracts and not just location etc.

Offline sammie

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #18 on: 01/14/2008 02:19 PM »
OK, lets put a different twist to this.

After watching NASA spend billions of Dollars on a project with little scientific or commericials gains and work spread out for purely political reasons (ie. shuttle), the EU has finally learned from this practice and created Galileo.

Im surprized the amount of flak Galileo is receiving, considering both the US and EU Governments are willing to spend much more money on other vanity projects.
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Offline Felix

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #19 on: 01/14/2008 02:25 PM »
The (print) article in Der Spiegel says the gap was caused by the agreement by calling the development phase "complete". the development is far from complete so all of the remaining development goes into the construction phase eating up the budget for the actual construction of the sats.

Offline Sphereion

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #20 on: 01/14/2008 02:38 PM »
Quote
Blackstar - 14/1/2008  6:26 AM


Well, as an American, I have no problems with Europeans being taxed for an expensive system that is not really necessary.  Go right ahead and waste money.

That is very American of you  :laugh:

Quote
sammie - 14/1/2008  9:19 AM

OK, lets put a different twist to this.

After watching NASA spend billions of Dollars on a project with little scientific or commericials gains and work spread out for purely political reasons (ie. shuttle), the EU has finally learned from this practice and created Galileo.

Im surprized the amount of flak Galileo is receiving, considering both the US and EU Governments are willing to spend much more money on other vanity projects.

I am French and I find Shuttle more interesting for space exploration than Galileo. It seems to be a system we do not need. The US system works fine. However "Old" Europe (France and Germany) are worried about America and being hit with a cane for being against America and Iraq (and we were right about that).

But America will not hurt UK, Poland or Italy who did support America, so could they turn off US GPS for selected countries?? Turning it off for all Europe would not work?

So why do we need Galileo?

Offline ckiki lwai

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #21 on: 01/14/2008 02:40 PM »
Quote
Blackstar - 13/1/2008  10:46 PM
The US was worried that once Galileo was started, European governments would switch their militaries over to it, and NATO would no longer have compatible weapons.

What do you mean with "not compatible weapons"?
Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Offline edkyle99

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #22 on: 01/14/2008 03:46 PM »
Quote
Sphereion - 14/1/2008  9:38 AM

But America will not hurt UK, Poland or Italy who did support America, so could they turn off US GPS for selected countries?? Turning it off for all Europe would not work?

So why do we need Galileo?

I am one U.S. citizen who completely understands Europe's reasoning for creating Galileo.  GPS had "Selective Availability" built into its design, meaning that civilians (Europeans and U.S. citizens included) were not always guaranteed good navigation data.  When Galileo was proposed, the U.S. response was to recommended that the system either not be deployed or, if it was, that the U.S. be allowed to "jam" it when needed!  Europe responded by trying to "grab" some of the GPS frequency allocation, which didn't help the controversy.  The U.S. and Europe appear to have finally hammered out an agreement, but it took a long time to get there.  

http://www.edn.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6463936
http://technology.newscientist.com/article/dn12278
http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/09/19/EC-backs-funding-to-salvage-Galileo-GPS-project_1.html?MOBILE%20APPLICATIONS
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL1674424620070716

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Offline Jim

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #23 on: 01/14/2008 04:07 PM »
Quote
edkyle99 - 14/1/2008  11:46 AM

I am one U.S. citizen who completely understands Europe's reasoning for creating Galileo.  GPS had "Selective Availability" built into its design, meaning that civilians (Europeans and U.S. citizens included) were not always guaranteed good navigation data.


which is no longer in the design

Offline Blackstar

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #24 on: 01/14/2008 04:33 PM »
Quote
edkyle99 - 14/1/2008  10:46 AM
When Galileo was proposed, the U.S. response was to recommended that the system either not be deployed or, if it was, that the U.S. be allowed to "jam" it when needed!

Actually, the US proposal was that the Europeans put in the ability to turn it off in event of hostilities.  As a US official who was involved in the negotiations at the time once told me "Everybody knows that if we decide it is necessary, we _will_ jam it.  We were just trying to be polite."

Offline Analyst

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #25 on: 01/14/2008 05:53 PM »
Quote
Analyst - 14/1/2008  2:03 PM

The US has not proven to be a reliable partner in many matters.

Quote
Jim - 14/1/2008  2:27 PM

I will ignore that comment since the items you list are insignificant and pales when the US has been the most reliable partner in NATO.

The US can always use WWII and the Cold War as examples of good partnership.  And it won't get over used.

Quote
Blackstar - 14/1/2008  6:33 PM

As a US official who was involved in the negotiations at the time once told me "Everybody knows that if we decide it is necessary, we _will_ jam it.  We were just trying to be polite."

No comment needed.

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Offline kevin-rf

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #26 on: 01/14/2008 06:16 PM »
Quote
Blackstar - 14/1/2008  12:33 PM
Actually, the US proposal was that the Europeans put in the ability to turn it off in event of hostilities.  As a US official who was involved in the negotiations at the time once told me "Everybody knows that if we decide it is necessary, we _will_ jam it.  We were just trying to be polite."

And we know how effective the iraqi gps jammers where. Didn't the DOD say they took it(them) out with GPS guided munitions ;)

Despite everything we see on GPS jamming the fact is the GPS and Galileo are very directional signals that come from above in the sky. In a well designed munition receiver the jammer must be above not below the munition.
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Offline ckiki lwai

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #27 on: 01/14/2008 06:33 PM »

Quote
Jim - 14/1/2008  6:07 PM

Quote
edkyle99 - 14/1/2008  11:46 AM

I am one U.S. citizen who completely understands Europe's reasoning for creating Galileo.  GPS had "Selective Availability" built into its design, meaning that civilians (Europeans and U.S. citizens included) were not always guaranteed good navigation data.


which is no longer in the design

   
Quote
Blackstar 14/1/2008  6:33 PM
Quote
edkyle99 - 14/1/2008 10:46 AM
When Galileo was proposed, the U.S. response was to recommended that the system either not be deployed or, if it was, that the U.S. be allowed to "jam" it when needed!


Actually, the US proposal was that the Europeans put in the ability to turn it off in event of hostilities. As a US official who was involved in the negotiations at the time once told me "Everybody knows that if we decide it is necessary, we _will_ jam it. We were just trying to be polite."

OK, the "selective capability" won't be built in future GPS satellites.
But if they can jam their own satellites when they want (the same way they would do it with our Galileo satellites when necessary), then you actually don't need the "selective capability" built in at all.

But edkyle99 is right about the fact that civilians don't get a guaranteed good navigation data from GPS.
One of applications of satellite navigation could be guiding airplanes so they can fly shorter routes.
The reason this is not the case today is that the GPS signal isn't guaranteed to be always reliable by the US Air Force, while the precision is very important, especially during landing and take off.
The difference between GPS and Galileo is that Galileo guarantees you the signal is correct, and when it isn't correct because of a failed satellite, Galileo will tell you while GPS doesn't.

From the ESA article on Why Europe needs Galileo:
"[Galileo] will guarantee availability of the service under all but the most extreme circumstances and will inform users within seconds of a failure of any satellite. This will make it suitable for applications where safety is crucial, such as running trains, guiding cars and landing aircraft."

Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Offline meiza

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #28 on: 01/14/2008 06:55 PM »
Of course it makes sense to put a capability in Galileo so it can be turned off. For example if some rogue nation is shooting Galileo guided munitions at USA or Europe.

Offline ryan mccabe

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #29 on: 01/14/2008 07:27 PM »
Quote
kevin-rf - 14/1/2008  1:16 PM

Quote
Blackstar - 14/1/2008  12:33 PM
Actually, the US proposal was that the Europeans put in the ability to turn it off in event of hostilities.  As a US official who was involved in the negotiations at the time once told me "Everybody knows that if we decide it is necessary, we _will_ jam it.  We were just trying to be polite."

And we know how effective the iraqi gps jammers where. Didn't the DOD say they took it(them) out with GPS guided munitions ;)

The "GPS guided munitions" are somewhat misunderstood IMO. Hardly anything is targeted only with GPS data. Even the JDAM uses inertial navigation first with GPS inputs for refinement. Iraq may well have jammed GPS in some areas, but that wouldn't have done any good for the laser-ring gyros in the bombs headed their way.

I wonder if the DOD intentionally trumped-up the use of GPS weaponry so that our opponents would invest in jamming devices that would basically serve to give away their position?

Offline ryan mccabe

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #30 on: 01/14/2008 07:56 PM »

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ckiki lwai - 14/1/2008  1:33 PM

But edkyle99 is right about the fact that civilians don't get a guaranteed good navigation data from GPS. One of applications of satellite navigation could be guiding airplanes so they can fly shorter routes. The reason this is not the case today is that the GPS signal isn't guaranteed to be always reliable by the US Air Force, while the precision is very important, especially during landing and take off. The difference between GPS and Galileo is that Galileo guarantees you the signal is correct, and when it isn't correct because of a failed satellite, Galileo will tell you while GPS doesn't.

I don't see these as salient points:

1. GPS has several methods of ensuring the accuracy of the system and the means to shut-down a satellite that begins to transmit faulty data. The GPS constellation has more satellites on-orbit than necessary to maintain accuracy, which is as good a guarantee as any *

2. GPS is already approved for flight in instrument flight rules, and GPS hardware is already in thousands of commercial and general aircraft.
 

3. As for using satellite navigation for take-offs (??) and landings, neither GPS nor Galileo would have the accuracy to match ILS. A ground-based augmentation system is necessary for both systems, and the one already in-service (WAAS) uses GPS. The soon-to-be operational European counterpart (EGNOS) also uses GPS data until/if Galileo comes online. But if EGNOS already provides the precision augmentation Europe claims it will obtain with Galileo, you have to wonder what the point is again...

4. Like I said above, no critical system is guided purely by GPS. Nor will any system be guided purely by Galileo. So what's the real value of Galileo telling you when it isn't working? Anything critical already has a means of ignoring spurious data and using an alternative navigation mode.

 I'm with the skeptics. Every point for Galileo seems like a non-issue, or one with a much simpler technical work-around.

 
* - See: Tommy Boy for additional comments about guarantees...


Offline Blackstar

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #31 on: 01/14/2008 09:07 PM »
Quote
kevin-rf - 14/1/2008  1:16 PM
Quote
Blackstar - 14/1/2008  12:33 PM
Actually, the US proposal was that the Europeans put in the ability to turn it off in event of hostilities.  As a US official who was involved in the negotiations at the time once told me "Everybody knows that if we decide it is necessary, we _will_ jam it.  We were just trying to be polite."

And we know how effective the iraqi gps jammers where. Didn't the DOD say they took it(them) out with GPS guided munitions ;)

I don't think these things are comparable at all.  Comparing Iraq's ability to jam GPS (which they apparently tried ineffectively) to the US Air Force's ability to jam something is a non-starter.  My money would be on the USAF: if they wanted Galileo shut down, they could get it shut down.  

(Note: this would be a senior policy decision made by the President, not some USAF general.)

Offline Blackstar

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #32 on: 01/14/2008 09:09 PM »
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Sphereion - 14/1/2008  9:38 AM
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Blackstar - 14/1/2008  6:26 AM
Well, as an American, I have no problems with Europeans being taxed for an expensive system that is not really necessary.  Go right ahead and waste money.

That is very American of you  :laugh:

Well, I'm sure you have no problem with Americans wasting money on stupid things.  After all, it's our money, and it's your money; we can do whatever we want with it, right?

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #33 on: 01/14/2008 09:15 PM »
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ckiki lwai - 14/1/2008  9:40 AM

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Blackstar - 13/1/2008  10:46 PM
The US was worried that once Galileo was started, European governments would switch their militaries over to it, and NATO would no longer have compatible weapons.
What do you mean with "not compatible weapons"?

Air-dropped bombs, for starters.  Also aircraft.

The issue was that it costs a lot of money to install navigation systems in aircraft and other weapons.  The Kosovo campaign demonstrated that Europe had not invested much in smart bombs.  

If you remember, there was this problem with a European country acting up, NATO decided to get involved and the only country that had the intelligence capabilities (i.e. satellites), aircraft, and smart munitions was--SURPRISE!--the United States.  So it was mostly American forces solving a problem in Europe's backyard.  (You're welcome, by the way.)

So after that the NATO countries started to talk about how important it was that they standardized systems and also that NATO invested in GPS equipment.  Officially, that was what the Europeans said would happen.  Galileo was only supposed to be used for civilian and not military purposes.  But the United States suspected (so did the British, and also the European members of NATO) that at some point the Galileo proponents would say "Hey, we invested a lot in Galileo and nobody is using it, so we need to get our militaries to buy Galileo equipment.  Let's not buy GPS equipment."

I don't think that has happened yet, but it will.

Just to be clear, while the Europeans reading this might think that me being an American is clouding my judgment on this, these kinds of policy disputes happen _all the time_ in NATO and in areas like military cooperation.  Trying to get everybody in the coalition to buy hardware that is compatible is a perennial issue.  It has been for 50 years.

Offline pierre

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Offline Blackstar

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #35 on: 01/15/2008 12:19 AM »
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ckiki lwai - 14/1/2008  1:33 PM
[Galileo] will guarantee availability of the service under all but the most extreme circumstances and will inform users within seconds of a failure of any satellite. This will make it suitable for applications where safety is crucial, such as running trains, guiding cars and landing aircraft."

I think there's something legal tied into that as well--something like the EU will legally guarantee that the system will never fail, meaning that if it does fail and somebody loses money because of that (like a plane crashing, or you cannot track your taxicabs), then they will reimburse for the loss or something.

That sounded dubious to me.  I got the sense that they were trying to justify the system by promising things that nobody really cares about and that nobody would be able to use.

The basic problem for them is that GPS is free.

Offline Sphereion

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #36 on: 01/17/2008 07:35 AM »
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Blackstar - 14/1/2008  4:09 PM

After all, it's our money, and it's your money; we can do whatever we want with it, right?

No. America does what it wants and expects the world to do what America wants.

Offline Chris Bergin

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Sphereion - 17/1/2008  8:35 AM

Quote
Blackstar - 14/1/2008  4:09 PM

After all, it's our money, and it's your money; we can do whatever we want with it, right?

No. America does what it wants and expects the world to do what America wants.

You're losing context there. His full sentence was:

"Well, I'm sure you have no problem with Americans wasting money on stupid things. After all, it's our money, and it's your money; we can do whatever we want with it, right?"

Not sure how anyone can draw exception to that.

Offline Blackstar

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #38 on: 01/17/2008 03:44 PM »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 17/1/2008  2:48 AM

Quote
Sphereion - 17/1/2008  8:35 AM
No. America does what it wants and expects the world to do what America wants.

You're losing context there. His full sentence was:

"Well, I'm sure you have no problem with Americans wasting money on stupid things. After all, it's our money, and it's your money; we can do whatever we want with it, right?"

Not sure how anyone can draw exception to that.

I think he was making a sarcastic anti-American comment, and I have no problem with that.

The Europeans are entitled to spend their money any way that they want.  I don't think this is the best way for them to do it, however.  What they really need is a better system for military intel, so that they don't have to rely upon the Americans for it, and don't complain when the Americans don't immediately provide the intel that they want (what happened during Kosovo).  However, the problem is that doing this is essentially funding a military system, and so it is less popular than funding something that is viewed as a civilian system with military uses (Galileo).  

Plus, I think Galileo is viewed as a bigger gravy train, because it requires a lot of satellites (as opposed to a few intel satellites) and so the launch providers can sell more rockets and the satellite builders can build more satellites and therefore the corporations are happy.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #39 on: 01/17/2008 05:54 PM »
Quote
Blackstar - 17/1/2008  4:44 PM

Plus, I think Galileo is viewed as a bigger gravy train, because it requires a lot of satellites (as opposed to a few intel satellites) and so the launch providers can sell more rockets and the satellite builders can build more satellites and therefore the corporations are happy.

No the EU thinks Galileo will generate lots of manufacturing jobs selling GPS receivers to the general public.  That electronics manufacturing jobs moved to Asia never to return in the 1960s is something the EUs 1950s mentality cannot understand.

Offline Blackstar

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #40 on: 01/17/2008 08:52 PM »
Quote
A_M_Swallow - 17/1/2008  12:54 PM
No the EU thinks Galileo will generate lots of manufacturing jobs selling GPS receivers to the general public.  That electronics manufacturing jobs moved to Asia never to return in the 1960s is something the EUs 1950s mentality cannot understand.

They may be _claiming_ that in public, but I don't think it's why the government leaders want it.  Right now there is nothing that prevents European industry from building GPS receivers.  They don't need Galileo to do that.  But the Galileo satellites will only be built in Europe, so it is European aerospace companies that are help fueling this.

Offline ckiki lwai

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #41 on: 01/17/2008 10:41 PM »
Quote
Blackstar - 17/1/2008  5:44 PM

The Europeans are entitled to spend their money any way that they want.  I don't think this is the best way for them to do it, however.  What they really need is a better system for military intel, so that they don't have to rely upon the Americans for it, and don't complain when the Americans don't immediately provide the intel that they want (what happened during Kosovo).  However, the problem is that doing this is essentially funding a military system, and so it is less popular than funding something that is viewed as a civilian system with military uses (Galileo).  
We don't have a European army, spy satellites would have to be funded on national level not on European level.

Maybe the Americans should drop their GPS and use our Galileo satellites, and spend the money on education and social welfare. ;)
Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Offline meiza

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #42 on: 01/17/2008 11:05 PM »
Quote
Blackstar - 17/1/2008  4:44 PM

Quote
Chris Bergin - 17/1/2008  2:48 AM

Quote
Sphereion - 17/1/2008  8:35 AM
No. America does what it wants and expects the world to do what America wants.

You're losing context there. His full sentence was:

"Well, I'm sure you have no problem with Americans wasting money on stupid things. After all, it's our money, and it's your money; we can do whatever we want with it, right?"

Not sure how anyone can draw exception to that.

I think he was making a sarcastic anti-American comment, and I have no problem with that.

The Europeans are entitled to spend their money any way that they want.  I don't think this is the best way for them to do it, however.  What they really need is a better system for military intel, so that they don't have to rely upon the Americans for it, and don't complain when the Americans don't immediately provide the intel that they want (what happened during Kosovo).  However, the problem is that doing this is essentially funding a military system, and so it is less popular than funding something that is viewed as a civilian system with military uses (Galileo).  

Plus, I think Galileo is viewed as a bigger gravy train, because it requires a lot of satellites (as opposed to a few intel satellites) and so the launch providers can sell more rockets and the satellite builders can build more satellites and therefore the corporations are happy.

Especially since it's not a commercial system where the builder is selected according to cost... :(

Offline Blackstar

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #43 on: 01/17/2008 11:50 PM »
Quote
ckiki lwai - 17/1/2008  5:41 PM

Quote
Blackstar - 17/1/2008  5:44 PM
We don't have a European army, spy satellites would have to be funded on national level not on European level.

Maybe the Americans should drop their GPS and use our Galileo satellites, and spend the money on education and social welfare. ;)

Europe could call them "information gathering satellites" and insist that they're non-military.  Japan does that.

We already spend quite a bit of money on education and social welfare.

Offline Thomas ESA

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #44 on: 01/18/2008 07:02 AM »
Quote
Blackstar - 14/1/2008  11:33 AM

Quote
edkyle99 - 14/1/2008  10:46 AM
When Galileo was proposed, the U.S. response was to recommended that the system either not be deployed or, if it was, that the U.S. be allowed to "jam" it when needed!

Actually, the US proposal was that the Europeans put in the ability to turn it off in event of hostilities.  As a US official who was involved in the negotiations at the time once told me "Everybody knows that if we decide it is necessary, we _will_ jam it.  We were just trying to be polite."

IF that was even true, we would tell the Americans to walk out and close the door behind them, promptly! They would not dare jam Galileo also.

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #45 on: 01/18/2008 08:39 AM »
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Blackstar - 18/1/2008  1:50 AM

Quote
ckiki lwai- 17/1/2008  5:44 PM
We don't have a European army, spy satellites would have to be funded on national level not on European level.

Maybe the Americans should drop their GPS and use our Galileo satellites, and spend the money on education and social welfare. ;)

Europe could call them "information gathering satellites" and insist that they're non-military.  Japan does that.
[/QUOTE]
That would be a much bigger lie than what you think Galileo is!

Quote
We already spend quite a bit of money on education and social welfare.

That's why it's such an important issue in elections? At least we get that impression here in Europe.
Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Offline SimonShuttle

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #46 on: 01/18/2008 11:13 AM »
This reminds me a bit of Star Wars (sorry Jim :) ) where the Americans said they would be able to change the sheild to protect whoever they were getting alone with at the time. Thankfully, we always have :)

Offline Nate_Trost

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #47 on: 01/18/2008 03:19 PM »
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Thomas ESA - 18/1/2008  2:02 AM
IF that was even true, we would tell the Americans to walk out and close the door behind them, promptly! They would not dare jam Galileo also.

In a theoretical future conflict with China? Yes, I'm pretty sure the USAF would.

Offline ckiki lwai

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #48 on: 01/19/2008 07:31 AM »
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Nate_Trost - 18/1/2008  5:19 PM

Quote
Thomas ESA - 18/1/2008  2:02 AM
IF that was even true, we would tell the Americans to walk out and close the door behind them, promptly! They would not dare jam Galileo also.

In a theoretical future conflict with China? Yes, I'm pretty sure the USAF would.

Not if one the US allies uses Galileo for its weapons...
Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Offline Blackstar

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #49 on: 01/19/2008 11:43 AM »
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ckiki lwai - 19/1/2008  2:31 AM

Quote
Nate_Trost - 18/1/2008  5:19 PM

In a theoretical future conflict with China? Yes, I'm pretty sure the USAF would.

Not if one the US allies uses Galileo for its weapons...

A-Which is exactly what the US is wishing to avoid.

B-And it depends upon which ally, really.

In response to the previous comment that the US would not do this, presumably because it would anger the Europeans, don't you think that recent experience with President Bush demonstrates that the United States will ignore European government opinion if the president considers the national security issues to be important enough?  

In other words, do you believe that somebody like George Bush would _not_ jam Galileo?

Offline Martin FL

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #50 on: 01/19/2008 12:07 PM »
There isn't a European Government is there? It's national governments?

Offline Chris Bergin

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Martin FL - 19/1/2008  1:07 PM

There isn't a European Government is there? It's national governments?

EU (European Union), which includes the European Parliament etc. etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union

But power is held with the sovereign states/countries. See the individual choices on joining the war against terror. Wasn't a "European" decision.

Would become interesting if there was a big split vote on whatever could kick start such a US action - notably because the UK and a few others would likely align with a US position. US action could change that.

"Europe" is a very diverse and complex animal - and not all that representative apart from on the map.

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #52 on: 01/19/2008 12:23 PM »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 19/1/2008  7:13 AM

But power is held with the sovereign states/countries. See the individual choices on joining the war against terror. Wasn't a "European" decision.


Yeah, the French left us out to dry on that  :angry:

Offline Chris Bergin

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Martin FL - 19/1/2008  1:23 PM

Quote
Chris Bergin - 19/1/2008  7:13 AM

But power is held with the sovereign states/countries. See the individual choices on joining the war against terror. Wasn't a "European" decision.


Yeah, the French left us out to dry on that  :angry:

Quick one before we avoid going off track, but the French sent 2,000 troops into Afghanistan after 9/11. Nothing close to the British involvement that is still ongoing (and the offensive is going well), but more than - for example - Australia (smaller military, granted) for reference.

Offline pierre

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #54 on: 01/19/2008 01:26 PM »
Quote
Martin FL - 19/1/2008  2:07 PM

There isn't a European Government is there? It's national governments?

The thing that is most similar to an European government is probably the European Commission. But it isn't yet equivalent to a full European government, even if it had increased powers over the last decade (Amsterdam and Nice treaties) and will probably gain more power with the Lisbon Treaty which includes the "High Representative" (the Secretary of State) in the Commission and will hopefully simplify a bit the relations between the EU and the rest of the world.

Back on topic: one of the reasons why Galileo is so important is that it's the first big space program of the EU, in collaboration with ESA: all previous programs were directed only by ESA, which is independent from the EU (even if there are stronger ties created between the two organizations in the last few years).

P.S.: a small factlet about the war-on-terror thing: there are currently more troops in Afghanistan from EU states (approximately 21,700) than from the USA (15,000).

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #55 on: 01/19/2008 04:04 PM »
Quote
Blackstar - 19/1/2008  1:43 PM

Quote
ckiki lwai - 19/1/2008  2:31 AM

Quote
Nate_Trost - 18/1/2008  5:19 PM

In a theoretical future conflict with China? Yes, I'm pretty sure the USAF would.

Not if one the US allies uses Galileo for its weapons...

A-Which is exactly what the US is wishing to avoid.

B-And it depends upon which ally, really.

In response to the previous comment that the US would not do this, presumably because it would anger the Europeans, don't you think that recent experience with President Bush demonstrates that the United States will ignore European government opinion if the president considers the national security issues to be important enough?  

In other words, do you believe that somebody like George Bush would _not_ jam Galileo?

But what would be the tactical advantage of jamming Galileo in the first place?
The Chinese would be foolish to base their weapons on it...
Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Offline A_M_Swallow

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #56 on: 01/19/2008 06:06 PM »
Quote
ckiki lwai - 19/1/2008  5:04 PM

But what would be the tactical advantage of jamming Galileo in the first place?
The Chinese would be foolish to base their weapons on it...

Over the years people have done lots of foolish things with their weapons.

The advantage to the Chinese of using GPS receivers is that they are cheap since they will be made in China.  In a Chinese-Russian war the USA is unlikely to jam Galileo.

Offline Blackstar

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #57 on: 01/20/2008 02:18 AM »
Quote
A_M_Swallow - 19/1/2008  1:06 PM

Quote
ckiki lwai - 19/1/2008  5:04 PM

But what would be the tactical advantage of jamming Galileo in the first place?
The Chinese would be foolish to base their weapons on it...

Over the years people have done lots of foolish things with their weapons.

The advantage to the Chinese of using GPS receivers is that they are cheap since they will be made in China.  In a Chinese-Russian war the USA is unlikely to jam Galileo.

Well, keep in mind that in the recent past China expressed interest in being part of Galileo.  So it was entirely possible that China could have planned for equipping its weapons to use Galileo as well.  And the US would have sought the ability to jam Galileo.

But I think another possible scenario is that Europe fields Galileo, France develops weapons that rely upon Galileo which it then exports.  Thus, the United States would still seek a way to jam Galileo, because it could always end up facing weapons that rely upon it.

Offline ADC9

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #58 on: 01/20/2008 10:50 AM »
Quote
Blackstar - 19/1/2008  9:18 PM

But I think another possible scenario is that Europe fields Galileo, France develops weapons that rely upon Galileo which it then exports.  Thus, the United States would still seek a way to jam Galileo, because it could always end up facing weapons that rely upon it.

If France does not deem whatever country it wishes to do business with as a terrorist state, then France would be within rights to do so. If by example, then the right would be given to act against a U.S system for their funding of Isreal's war machine, and the home of the 9/11 bombers, Saudi Arabia.

You would have to complain via the United Nations and I assume no one would back your wish. If the U.S then ignored the UN, as usual, any action would recieve a reaction. Does the U.S really want to risk santions from the E.U? over a third of the world's GDP? Would the U.S want to risk having all its bases kicked out of Europe?

So no, the U.S can't threaten France with such things.  Jam Galileo and the U.S loses.

Offline Justin Space

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #59 on: 01/20/2008 11:02 AM »
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ADC9 - 20/1/2008  5:50 AM

Quote
Blackstar - 19/1/2008  9:18 PM

But I think another possible scenario is that Europe fields Galileo, France develops weapons that rely upon Galileo which it then exports.  Thus, the United States would still seek a way to jam Galileo, because it could always end up facing weapons that rely upon it.

If France does not deem whatever country it wishes to do business with as a terrorist state, then France would be within rights to do so. If by example, then the right would be given to act against a U.S system for their funding of Isreal's war machine, and the home of the 9/11 bombers, Saudi Arabia.

You would have to complain via the United Nations and I assume no one would back your wish. If the U.S then ignored the UN, as usual, any action would recieve a reaction. Does the U.S really want to risk santions from the E.U? over a third of the world's GDP? Would the U.S want to risk having all its bases kicked out of Europe?

So no, the U.S can't threaten France with such things.  Jam Galileo and the U.S loses.

Are there any US bases in France? I think you'd find that the US bases in the UK would not be removed on French orders ;)

Offline ckiki lwai

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #60 on: 01/20/2008 01:10 PM »
Quote
Blackstar - 20/1/2008  4:18 AM

Quote
A_M_Swallow - 19/1/2008  1:06 PM

Quote
ckiki lwai - 19/1/2008  5:04 PM

But what would be the tactical advantage of jamming Galileo in the first place?
The Chinese would be foolish to base their weapons on it...

Over the years people have done lots of foolish things with their weapons.

The advantage to the Chinese of using GPS receivers is that they are cheap since they will be made in China.  In a Chinese-Russian war the USA is unlikely to jam Galileo.

Well, keep in mind that in the recent past China expressed interest in being part of Galileo.  So it was entirely possible that China could have planned for equipping its weapons to use Galileo as well.  And the US would have sought the ability to jam Galileo.

But I think another possible scenario is that Europe fields Galileo, France develops weapons that rely upon Galileo which it then exports.  Thus, the United States would still seek a way to jam Galileo, because it could always end up facing weapons that rely upon it.

That seems unlikely, Galileo has a separate frequency for governments of EU memberstates only, which is encrypted and heavily protected to be reliable as possible.
If France would build weapons that use Galileo, then they will probably use this special frequency so they will be useless to the Chinese (or other countries).
Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Offline pierre

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #61 on: 01/20/2008 01:10 PM »
IMHO this whole Galileo-military-uses/jamming-Galileo thing is much less important than it may seem.

For three reasons: first I think that with "jamming Galileo" the (anonymous?) US official meant something done only in exceptional circumstances, temporarily and, most importantly, localized to war zones. I think something like this was done in Iraq: a powerful radio emitter that generated white noise in the GPS frequencies, rendering useless simple GPS receivers within a few kilometers.

The second reason is that if you have all the technology to build a weapon that requires GPS and/or Galileo to work (i.e. a cruise or ballistic missile), then you also have the technology to make it work without it. There is inertial navigation, laser guidance, radar guidance, the good old maps and photos of the target, etc. You also have the technology to destroy the jammers: they are by definition devices that emit a strong radio signal on a very well defined frequency, so they should be relatively easy to target, even if they are in orbit (remember that we are talking about a high-tech war).

And the third reason is that there are much, much simpler, cheaper and more effective ways to kill a lot of people than a cruise/ballistic missile.

Offline Jim

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #62 on: 01/20/2008 01:37 PM »
Quote
ADC9 - 20/1/2008  6:50 AM

1.  Does the U.S really want to risk santions from the E.U? over a third of the world's GDP?

So no, the U.S can't threaten France with such things.  Jam Galileo and the U.S loses.

1.  It would hurt the E.U. more.  

2.  How so?  Also we are talking temporary/local  (battlefield) jamming?  Not worldwide, so your post is nonsense.

Also France is not the E.U.

Offline Chris Bergin

Quote
ADC9 - 20/1/2008  11:50 AM

Quote
Blackstar - 19/1/2008  9:18 PM

But I think another possible scenario is that Europe fields Galileo, France develops weapons that rely upon Galileo which it then exports.  Thus, the United States would still seek a way to jam Galileo, because it could always end up facing weapons that rely upon it.

If France does not deem whatever country it wishes to do business with as a terrorist state, then France would be within rights to do so. If by example, then the right would be given to act against a U.S system for their funding of Isreal's war machine, and the home of the 9/11 bombers, Saudi Arabia.

You would have to complain via the United Nations and I assume no one would back your wish. If the U.S then ignored the UN, as usual, any action would recieve a reaction. Does the U.S really want to risk santions from the E.U? over a third of the world's GDP? Would the U.S want to risk having all its bases kicked out of Europe?

So no, the U.S can't threaten France with such things.  Jam Galileo and the U.S loses.

I don't appreciate the undertones of that response. The question is valid, and it is not an excuse for political statements. It will only spoil what is an interesting discussion point on this thread - nevermind the fact that a lot of the above is inaccurate.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #64 on: 01/20/2008 05:31 PM »
Quote
Jim - 20/1/2008  2:37 PM
Also France is not the E.U.

The European Union is more like the modern French empire.

Offline ckiki lwai

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #65 on: 01/20/2008 05:53 PM »
Quote
A_M_Swallow - 20/1/2008  7:31 PM

Quote
Jim - 20/1/2008  2:37 PM
Also France is not the E.U.

The European Union is more like the modern French empire.

That's ridiculous and has nothing to do with this discussion.
Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Offline Blackstar

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #66 on: 01/20/2008 05:54 PM »
Quote
ckiki lwai - 20/1/2008  8:10 AM
If France would build weapons that use Galileo, then they will probably use this special frequency so they will be useless to the Chinese (or other countries).

Let's drop China from the discussion.

I noted that in the past the United States sought European cooperation in providing a way to reduce the accuracy of Galileo in case there was a military conflict.  Europe said no (they might have reversed that decision--I'm not sure).  But this was a US diplomatic move.  In the event of hostilities, and if the United States deemed it necessary to do so, the US would jam Galileo.  This would not be an easy decision to make, but my point was that it _could_ happen.

Several people responding have sought to state that it will never be necessary for the US to jam Galileo.

But as I pointed out, it _could_ be necessary.  And the example I provided is pretty straightforward: France develops weapons that utilize Galileo and exports them, and the United States seeks to deny an adversary the ability to utilize them.  It doesn't have to be China.  It could easily be Syria, or Jordan, or Libya, or several other countries (for instance, any country that flies the Mirage or the Rafale fighter jets).  

My point was that you cannot rule this out.  It _could_ happen.  That does not mean that it is likely, but it is possible.

Offline ckiki lwai

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #67 on: 01/20/2008 06:24 PM »

Quote
Blackstar - 20/1/2008  7:54 PM

Quote
ckiki lwai - 20/1/2008  8:10 AM
If France would build weapons that use Galileo, then they will probably use this special frequency so they will be useless to the Chinese (or other countries).

Let's drop China from the discussion.

I noted that in the past the United States sought European cooperation in providing a way to reduce the accuracy of Galileo in case there was a military conflict.  Europe said no (they might have reversed that decision--I'm not sure).  But this was a US diplomatic move.  In the event of hostilities, and if the United States deemed it necessary to do so, the US would jam Galileo.  This would not be an easy decision to make, but my point was that it _could_ happen.

Several people responding have sought to state that it will never be necessary for the US to jam Galileo.

But as I pointed out, it _could_ be necessary.  And the example I provided is pretty straightforward: France develops weapons that utilize Galileo and exports them, and the United States seeks to deny an adversary the ability to utilize them.  It doesn't have to be China.  It could easily be Syria, or Jordan, or Libya, or several other countries (for instance, any country that flies the Mirage or the Rafale fighter jets).  

My point was that you cannot rule this out.  It _could_ happen.  That does not mean that it is likely, but it is possible.

So in the remote possibility that if any EU memberstate build weapons that use Galileo and if they use the unsecured frequencies of Galileo and if they export it to other nations and if one of those gets in a conflict with the US or one of its allies, I guess they EU would locally deny the signal themselves in the warzone.
And even if they couldn't (which I deem unlikely, a lot of smart people have designed Galileo) then the EU would probably allow the US to locally jam it since the US is still an/the most important partner for the EU.

Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Offline A_M_Swallow

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #68 on: 01/20/2008 07:57 PM »
Quote
ckiki lwai - 20/1/2008  7:24 PM


So in the remote possibility that if any EU memberstate build weapons that use Galileo and if they use the unsecured frequencies of Galileo and if they export it to other nations and if one of those gets in a conflict with the US or one of its allies, I guess they EU would locally deny the signal themselves in the warzone.
And even if they couldn't (which I deem unlikely, a lot of smart people have designed Galileo) then the EU would probably allow the US to locally jam it since the US is still an/the most important partner for the EU.


You may wish to read this article and then think about what the EU Commission is actually doing.
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1019/1

Offline British NASA

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #69 on: 01/20/2008 08:48 PM »
Quote
A_M_Swallow - 20/1/2008  2:57 PM


You may wish to read this article and then think about what the EU Commission is actually doing.
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1019/1

"the badly ailing so-called “special relationship” between the US and the UK."

What heap of crap is this? Oh, the op ed was citing Labour MP Gwyenth Dunwoody? Well know as a Galloway type "hug a Saddam" supporter. Very poor reporting.

Offline SimonShuttle

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #70 on: 01/20/2008 08:56 PM »
"Now that Gordon Brown’s Labour government has been thoroughly humiliated on the satellite navigation issue—voting to fund Galileo out of the EU budget with no private sector involvement and none of Britain’s objections being taken into account—it’s time to take a close look at what this means for the badly ailing so-called “special relationship” between the US and the UK."

Doesn't even make any sense. Seems like angry rambling. Shame, they've had some interesting columns before, but the above about a"badly ailing" relationship is baseless horse shit and insulting for reasons I would not expect I'd have to explain.

Offline James Lowe1

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #71 on: 01/20/2008 08:59 PM »
Keep it calm guys.

Offline ckiki lwai

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #72 on: 01/20/2008 09:22 PM »
Quote
A_M_Swallow - 20/1/2008  9:57 PM

Quote
ckiki lwai - 20/1/2008  7:24 PM


So in the remote possibility that if any EU memberstate build weapons that use Galileo and if they use the unsecured frequencies of Galileo and if they export it to other nations and if one of those gets in a conflict with the US or one of its allies, I guess they EU would locally deny the signal themselves in the warzone.
And even if they couldn't (which I deem unlikely, a lot of smart people have designed Galileo) then the EU would probably allow the US to locally jam it since the US is still an/the most important partner for the EU.


You may wish to read this article and then think about what the EU Commission is actually doing.
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1019/1

Europe's path to more independence from the US should not be seen as hostile.
If we would ever have a European army (believe me, that would take more than six months or so), we will still be partners on many fields.
Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Offline SimonShuttle

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #73 on: 01/20/2008 09:29 PM »
A European Army would never include UK forces, it should be said.

Offline pierre

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #74 on: 01/20/2008 11:41 PM »
Quote
A_M_Swallow - 20/1/2008  9:57 PM

You may wish to read this article and then think about what the EU Commission is actually doing.
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1019/1

Please note that this article was written by Taylor Dinerman. He writes very often on The Space Review and I started long ago skipping any article written by him because they are, IMHO, often very inflammatory, unnecessarily alarmist, extremely militarist and sometimes far from the reality. Don't take my word on this: check out his past articles.

I read regurarly TSR, and sometimes it has very insightful commentaries (well, not the same level of precision and detail that you see here on NSF, but they don't ever try that), but IMO few, if any, of the articles written by Taylor Dinerman are part of this group.

Offline Blackstar

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #75 on: 01/20/2008 11:49 PM »
Quote
pierre - 20/1/2008  6:41 PM
Please note that this article was written by Taylor Dinerman. He writes very often on The Space Review and I started long ago skipping any article written by him because they are, IMHO, often very inflammatory, unnecessarily alarmist, extremely militarist and sometimes far from the reality. Don't take my word on this: check out his past articles.

Yep, that about sums it up.  I think that most of his articles wander around in search of a point, while taking random potshots at anybody he considers too liberal--China, Europe, scientists, the New York Times, or his favorite punching-bag, the French.

Then again, it's not like I'm not biased...

Offline Chris Bergin

Quote
pierre - 21/1/2008  12:41 AM

I read regurarly TSR, and sometimes it has very insightful commentaries (well, not the same level of precision and detail that you see here on NSF, but they don't ever try that), but IMO few, if any, of the articles written by Taylor Dinerman are part of this group.

For what it's worth, we're a different style of media. I become a shivering wreck in the corner of the room if I go over 2,000 words on the copy ;)

I personally find The Space Review superb, especially Jeff Foust and Dwayne Day's content.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #77 on: 01/21/2008 01:58 AM »
Thank you, that's very kind.  But I'd also point out that TSR is not a "news" site.  It's a policy and opinion journal.  

I personally think that the best TSR articles are those that don't simply have opinion and don't simply have the kind of info that you can get by reading Space News, Aviation Week, or other media and synthesizing them (what Dinerman does, for the most part).  I think the best TSR articles are those where the writer attended a conference or obtained some unique bit of information and writes about it.  If you personally did not attend a talk by a government official, or a conference on space issues, it is great that somebody else did and wrote it up on TSR.  There are a lot of interesting space policy talks in Washington that are attended by 50-60 people at most.  So it's great if somebody attends and writes it up on TSR and others can learn what was discussed.

I miss Sam Dinkin's articles.  He should have somebody else write his intros (because many of his articles seem like he started the conversation out in the hall and you first get to hear it when he breathlessly storms into your room), but he was really the only person out there regularly interviewing people in the alt-space business.  There are some alt-space companies that have been discussed _only_ in his interviews, and that's a shame.

Offline meiza

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #78 on: 01/21/2008 12:34 PM »
Yeah, TGV rockets spring to mind. Sam Dinkin's interview in TSR and then Dr Livingston's interview in the Space Show radio show are about the only sources where you really get info about what TGV does.
It would be cool to have some of that "self-made" stuff in Europe too, and not just some press releases or AP bits...

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #79 on: 01/21/2008 01:20 PM »
And that's probably the last you'll hear of TGV too.

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