Author Topic: Promise to reliable and economic space access: candidates of future propulsion tech  (Read 30189 times)

Offline 8900

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Let's discuss some advanced transportation concepts and their feasibility in this century
they may one day bring RELIABLE and ECONOMIC MANNED/UNMANNED space access
I've found this question quite interesting
the shuttle was supposed to accomplish this job, but it failed
There are some candidate technology
[1] Scramjet technology
[2] Superconducting Mass Driver
[3] Space elevator
[4] a combination of [1] and [2]
[5] fully reusable rocket
[6] or you may think of other alternatives
but some may think reliable and economic space access will never come true
no matter which idea you support, let's discuss the different possibilities

Offline neviden

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Offline MTKeshe

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Gravitational systems in collaboration with propulsion systems

Offline khallow

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[8] Expendable rocket

Probably the best choice in today's economic climate. I just don't see a more reliable solution replacing expendables until launch volume goes up substantially.
Karl Hallowell

Offline 8900

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khallow - 21/12/2007  6:21 PM

[8] Expendable rocket

Probably the best choice in today's economic climate. I just don't see a more reliable solution replacing expendables until launch volume goes up substantially.
please note that it's a prediction by 2100, not current situation ;)
It seems unlikely that the launch demand will be the same 100 years later

And what is MagBeam and Gravitational......
I haven't heard them before, can u explain a little bit? :cool:

Offline neviden

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MagBeam is quite an interesting concept (if we could make it work of course). You create focused beam of plasma and shoot it at payload. Payload then uses its own magnetic field, so that it can use that energy and momentum.

What that practically means is that you would have something like heavy high-powered SEP/NEP system in LEO. You launch your rocket straight up to get sufficiently high (above atmosphere) and then beam your power to achieve orbital velocity. Because we donít have to carry the power source and propellant with us SSTO becomes quite practical and doable. 3 km/s reduction in needed delta-v to achieve LEO would be revolutionary.  

But it doesnít end there. Once in LEO you can shoot to your payload again to change it to HEO, TLI, TMI or anywhere else. And since you leave your power source at home this means you get everything you would want: high acceleration, high delta-v, high isp. This means that you could get to mars in days or weeks instead of months. In sci-fi terms we are talking about something that would function like ďJump gateĒ, with the exception that it could actually work.

http://www.ess.washington.edu/Space/magbeam/WingleePhaseI_final.pdf

Offline MTKeshe

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Gravitational system is the one  which creates natural gravitational field force within  a rector, very much like earth gravitational field forces , which causes the craft which the system is attached to, for the craft to posses gravitational field force like earth, and by reducing the strength of this field or increasing it strength of the filed , one allows attraction and repulsion of the craft in respect to the central gravitational field of the given planet.

The initial systems for this has been tested and confirms this is achievable.

This system has an advantage , that due to its magnetic gravitational field force inherent principle, the system will create its own magnetospherice protection around the craft, very much like our atmosphere around our earth.

NASA has done a number of development in this respect, and as far as we know from Chinese space agency,  according to internal sources, Chinese are already developing and testing very similar principles.

With this technology , the propulsion engines and rocket technology for taking off becomes out of date, but using propulsion system once air born, will allow manoeuvrability in atmospheric and space motion for change of direction or correction in the direction of motion.

A Prototype of this system is about the size of a football and weight about less than 10 KG, and in full operation should be able to lift a few tons and coverage of 50-80 meter diameter magnetosphere area .

The participant on this forum from Marshall Space Flight Centre can enlighten us more regarding this technology.

Offline meiza

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[1] Scramjet technology

Not useful for spaceflight. It is an atmospheric cruise technology. High mass, high drag, low thrust, expensive, hot. Space launch is an acceleration mission, not cruise. Rocket engines have very high T/W.

[2] Superconducting Mass Driver

Not useful. The earth has an atmosphere which prevents all such launches. The stress of the launch is immense too.
On the moon, a sling is much much simpler and cheaper.

[3] Space elevator

Perhaps. The material and energy demands are extremely hard technical problems. The capital cost is huge. If the materials are developed, remember that the competing alternatives can use the materials too.

[5] fully reusable rocket

Getting closer here...

[6] or you may think of other alternatives

A partially reusable rocket would be the first step. It requires no radical new fundamental technologies, but patient development and testing. STS is just one example that doesn't work very well, but it doesn't mean the concept sucks.
Initial markets would help to increase launch rates and thus make reusable launch vehicles profitable and spaceflight cheaper.

Offline mikes

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[3] Space elevator
The material and energy demands are extremely hard technical problems.
Material, yes. Why energy? I understood it to be "just" precision-pointing a fairly high-power laser at the climber. Is the pointing regarded as well beyond current SOTA, or are there other problems?

thanks

Mike

Offline A_M_Swallow

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mikes - 21/12/2007  12:02 AM

Material, yes. Why energy? I understood it to be "just" precision-pointing a fairly high-power laser at the climber. Is the pointing regarded as well beyond current SOTA, or are there other problems?


c/fairly/very/

The climber's motors need several mega-watts of power.  So the laser needs to send something like 6 MW 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.  Designing that laser will cost a $1bn is its own right.

The space elevator people claim super laser is not a weapon whilst requesting the FAA make the beam path restricted airspace so no one flies through it.

All that energy gets converted into heat so the ribbon will glow yellow hot, the climbers will have enormous photo-voltaic panels and large radiators.  Due to the effects of the wind the panels and radiators cannot be deployed until the climbers are above the atmosphere.

Offline MKremer

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A_M_Swallow - 21/12/2007  7:01 PM
The space elevator people claim super laser is not a weapon whilst requesting the FAA make the beam path restricted airspace so no one flies through it.
The beam will be in the same plane as the ribbon and close enough that both ribbon and beam would fall under the same airspace restrictions.

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All that energy gets converted into heat so the ribbon will glow yellow hot, the climbers will have enormous photo-voltaic panels and large radiators.  Due to the effects of the wind the panels and radiators cannot be deployed until the climbers are above the atmosphere.
Huh? If the laser has a focus on the climber's reciever, why would the ribbon be involved in any heating? In the case of a full-sized ribbon and climber, the recieving area(s) would be extended away from the climber/ribbon itself, and unless the plan is to use the ribbon itself as a heat sink, a power beam shouldn't contact the ribbon at all (unless the beam has a really crappy focus).

Offline A_M_Swallow

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The first laser may be next to the ribbon but subsequent ones will probably be on land in South America and possibly on mountains in the USA.  The extra lasers will allow more than one climber to be on the ribbon.

The ribbon heating is coming from the motors and friction.  Unlike cars on roads the wheels are not air cooled.  To grip the wheels deform, see rolling resistance for details.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_resistance

Offline MTKeshe

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Can you please explain how scientists and engineers are going to physically  construct such a cable needed  as per the link given.

May be the electric charge down load to earth has not been considered, and if nano materials are to be used  as a cable?

Can you explain how due to their superconductivity properties, one can handle these geomagnetic planetary charge interferences which cause massive currents within the cable.

I think we need all the substation transformers on earth  to be connected to each other to be able to handle such power and be able to consume all of it too at the same time.

Offline sticksux

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MTKeshe - 21/12/2007  12:36 PM
Gravitational system is the one  which creates natural gravitational field force within  a rector, very much like earth gravitational field forces , which causes the craft which the system is attached to, for the craft to posses gravitational field force like earth, and by reducing the strength of this field or increasing it strength of the filed , one allows attraction and repulsion of the craft in respect to the central gravitational field of the given planet.

What? This does not sound like coherent English, let alone understandable technical description.

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The initial systems for this has been tested and confirms this is achievable.

Never heard anything about it from credible sources.

Offline sticksux

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khallow - 21/12/2007  11:21 AM
[8] Expendable rocket
Probably the best choice in today's economic climate. I just don't see a more reliable solution replacing expendables until launch volume goes up substantially.

My favorite too. With gradual drift towards reusability of some parts.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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MTKeshe - 22/12/2007  9:12 AM
May be the electric charge down load to earth has not been considered, and if nano materials are to be used  as a cable?

Can you explain how due to their superconductivity properties, one can handle these geomagnetic planetary charge interferences which cause massive currents within the cable.

The current space elevator designs assume that high tensile strength carbon nanotubes have a electrical resistivity of 10^-4 ohm-metres.  This makes them only a medium conductor of electricity.

Offline MTKeshe

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This we know as it has been measured by us some two years back (Please see the  link on the site , where we show 10^4 ohms resistance between two wires  measurement ), but in reality radio frequencies in atmosphere make the nano tube cables conductive,  thus they  are conductive all the time  in space .

We have tested this and using  welding arc machine some 5 meters away from the nano cable , the cable losses its resistance totally and become superconductor once the arc is produced ( This test was done in September 2006) .

Picture of test in the lab to show this property of the nano tubes can be posted.

Thus this assumption of 10^ 4 ohms resistance of nano cable will not be applicable in the atmospheric conditions , with all the lightening which are taking place around the earth atmosphere( about 1000 at any time).

Offline mboeller

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Maybe something like this from Phaser Telepropulsion could solve the problem:

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6193194-description.html

I read about it first in the JBIS Vol50 April 1997

Offline MTKeshe

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Talking about the gravitational systems for space energy and their use in space travel, one can further conclude.

All celestial bodies simultaneously,  while are generating energy in their inner cores,  they maintain gravitational field forces for attracting elements from their surrounding, and concurrently by the presence of  magnetic field (atmospheric protection) they  protect themselves from floating materials in space  too .

Now that world of science have understood the physical structure and the mechanism by which  celestial bodies can created and maintain all three factors,  a) internal production of energy , which leadís to creation of b) gravitational field and c) magnetic field.

One can replicate the operation of these planetary mechanism in a simple system , and utilising  them to human advantage, for example for production of clean energy, without any waste, or for motion in space.

The gravitational  systems not only can provide the space industry with unlimited amount of energy. When , used in a given  environment,  they can assist with production or extraction of specific element in any given point in the universe.

For example, in reality, gravitational systems can help to extract CO2 from atmosphere, while the system is used for transportation, and/or for energy production  on other planets for extraction of oxygen and so on allowing development of  human colonies  in space.

In gravitational systems, one can control the strength of field, thus one can generate a gravitational field which can match  gravitational field of any matter, this  being single nitrogen atom or molecules of  CO2.

Gravitational system can be developed that can match gravitational strength of any element or composites of elements.

The development of a gravitational systems that only attracts to itself CO2 for cleaning atmosphere , will solve the dilemma with global warming.

The gravitational strength  can be used to clean- up specific toxic matters from rivers , or for extracting oxygen  from environment of other planets for the survival of space travels of the future.

This is  the principle by which the universal mechanism of existence has worked through from the time of creation.

Where in the cosmos, variation in the gravitational field force of different position in the galaxies , allows different planets to have the ability to hold on to specific element , like helium as in case of Saturn  or a mixture of elements , allowing the creation of planet like earth and so on.

The power to be able to attract any specific matter, is purely being due to interaction and attraction between the internal gravitational field forces, which celestial bodies generate within their sanctum and the gravitation field strength of an atom of a given matter.

If this was not so,  then all planets in solar system would have been made of  mixture of the same elements in their inner construction as earth, which this is not so as we observe.

Where at the same time, as gravitational systems like earth , by their nature, are current generators within their own system ( as we know from the inner cores of the earth operation),  and the instigator for their rotation and  motion in their environment.

Using this knowledge to produce clean energy to oneís advantage, the gravitational systems can be developed  to separate the constituent of matter like the CO2, to release the O2, and be left with carbon as a solid residual.

Where, this carbon as solid matter can be reused for nano matters , construction materials ,or returned into earth as solid carbon.



We Know this is possible and CO2 absorption and Carbon separation through this method of CO2 capture has been confirmed by governmental  independent  test report as of early 2007.

Thus the gravitational systems are /or would be most logical and the possible salvation for control and even reversal of  the global warming due to CO2.

Where,  in space technology , these systems can produce energy, gravitational lift and the illusive shielding for the protection of the same object in any environment.

Not forgetting that to produce such a system does not  cost that much.  

Scientists, have  been told for decades, that,  1000 000 stars are created every day in the galaxies in the universe possessing all these three , of energy, gravitational field force and magnetic field all at the same time.

Now through advancement in technological arena, the principle of working of the planets and stars has been understood and systems to replicate them has been developed and tested.

Where this newly gained knowledge in how to produce planetary  gravitation fields can be used to manís advantage, in not only creating clean energy without any waste ( in the universe stars and planets travel for billions of years, without leaving any waste in their environment) and maitaing motion in space.

Where Simultaneous  use of  this principle allows the clean-up of the mess which the planet has reached with global warming.

Clean-up or extraction of matter,  while one is travelling in space or even while one is generating energy for immediate consumption is the only option for the travellers of future if space technology is to  achieve long hull space flight of future.

The ability to travel within earth atmosphere was achieved by man copying and replicating birdís mechanism of flight.

Now the knowledge to replicate the working of universal order of energy and motion has been understood and replicated in simple systems in the recent past , is it not the time that scientists collectively strive to concur the cosmos and free man from the peril of what to come due to progresses of the past?

Offline sticksux

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MTKeshe - 25/12/2007  6:10 PM
Now that world of science have understood the physical structure and the mechanism by which  celestial bodies can created and maintain all three factors,  a) internal production of energy, which leadís to creation of b) gravitational field and c) magnetic field.

(b) does not follow from (a). 100 km diameter chunk of pure lead will have gravitation field but sure as hell does not generate energy.

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One can replicate the operation of these planetary mechanism in a simple system

We can build gravity generators???! This is big news to me.

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For example, in reality, gravitational systems can help to extract CO2 from atmosphere

Obviously, you live in different reality than I. In my reality, there are no known "gravitational systems". Sorry, coke bottles with electrodes don't count.

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The development of a gravitational systems that only attracts to itself CO2 for cleaning atmosphere, will solve the dilemma with global warming.

Wow, can you build a grav system which attracts only Santa Claus to my house? :)

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