-
#220
by
psloss
on 07 Dec, 2007 00:13
-
Craig Covault asking a configuration management question -- does OV-104 or the tank have a different config? Leroy Cain said that OV-105 and OV-103 (on STS-118 and STS-120, respectively) have already flown in the config that OV-104 is in (which flew a "hybrid" config on STS-117). Can't rule out the possibility that wiring config is a contributing cause.
-
#221
by
psloss
on 07 Dec, 2007 00:17
-
Interesting...Doug Lyons says that there's a study on doing a LH2 ECO sensor R&R in the winter months in the vertical while mated. (Maybe at the pad.)
-
#222
by
psloss
on 07 Dec, 2007 00:18
-
Briefing over. First wild guess on tomorrow's briefing time is 5 pm Eastern.
-
#223
by
Chris Bergin
on 07 Dec, 2007 00:20
-
Ok, we'll keep this thread active through tomorrow as they work the evaluations.
-
#224
by
mkirk
on 07 Dec, 2007 00:20
-
Based on what Leroy said, I would be surprised if 48 hours is doable. If the Program accepts the 2 or 4 (or some other ratio) for failed wet sensors, it will still take a little time (presumably days, but maybe even weeks or more) to get the Flight Control Team and the Crew on the same page as to what the ascent procedures would be for the numerous cases in which this would be a factor (and there are a lot of cases to examine, mostly abort related).
While there has been some simulation on this for the ascent flight control team it is no trivial thing to get the procedures formalized and documented to the level you want before you go fly.
I may be wrong but at this point the ascent flight procedures with the ECO mod are not nearly mature enough.
I can see them getting there (i.e. to 2 of 4 decision) I am just saying that I don’t believe they can do that in the 48 hour time frame!!!!
Mark Kirkman
-
#225
by
mkirk
on 07 Dec, 2007 00:27
-
Gary - 6/12/2007 7:24 PM
mkirk - 7/12/2007 1:20 AM
While there has been some simulation on this for the ascent flight control team it is no trivial thing to get the procedures formalized and documented to the level you want before you go fly.
I'd also assume this is something you would want to throw at the crew and misson control in the sims a few times so everyone knows the signature of a ECO sensor issue and a (nearly) empty tank.
It does sound like its an option that's under evaulation but hasn't actually borne fruit yet.
I honestly don't know if this was presented in any of the Ascent Integrated Sims for 118 or subsequent training flows. Even if it did get worked in those I still think it would take the Program past Saturday to get everyone onboard with the new philosophy and to have the procedures and flight rules properly documented. (reference my previous post)
Mark Kirkman
-
#226
by
psloss
on 07 Dec, 2007 00:29
-
mkirk - 6/12/2007 8:27 PM
I honestly don't know if this was presented in any of the Ascent Integrated sims for 118 or subsequent training flows. Even if it did get worked in those I still think it would take the program past Saturday to get everyone onboard with the new philosophy and to have the procedures and flight rules properly documented. (reference my previous post)
Do you think it would be possible to get that through an organization the size of the SSP in a week's time? (i.e., before the end of the December window)
-
#227
by
Ford Mustang
on 07 Dec, 2007 00:33
-
Looks like a set of Xenon lights are on... Wondering when RSS moves to MATE position, if anyone knows.. I've been away for most of the briefing..
[small]Also, if this isn't supposed to go here yet, please delete[/small]
-
#228
by
mkirk
on 07 Dec, 2007 00:34
-
psloss - 6/12/2007 7:29 PM
mkirk - 6/12/2007 8:27 PM
I honestly don't know if this was presented in any of the Ascent Integrated sims for 118 or subsequent training flows. Even if it did get worked in those I still think it would take the program past Saturday to get everyone onboard with the new philosophy and to have the procedures and flight rules properly documented. (reference my previous post)
Do you think it would be possible to get that through an organization the size of the SSP in a week's time? (i.e., before the end of the December window)
I would hate to speculate much further than what I already have. The team is great at doing the seemingly impossible, and right now the leader ship is outstanding...so we will just have to wait and see.
My main motive for the previous couple of posts was to point out the enormity of what has to take place. Going with a flight rationale of 2 of 4 ( or something similar) based on the real time use of the new instrumentation is not as simple as it may have sounded to some of the listeners to the briefing.
Mark Kirkman
-
#229
by
Gary
on 07 Dec, 2007 00:36
-
Thanks Mark and everyone else. Your insights and answers make this all so much more interesting for armchair spectators like myself.
-
#230
by
erioladastra
on 07 Dec, 2007 01:06
-
"I would hate to speculate much further than what I already have. The team is great at doing the seemingly impossible, and right now the leader ship is outstanding...so we will just have to wait and see. "
It is no different than pulling together the solar array repair EVA on 10A. We can do it. It won't be easy but it could be done.
-
#231
by
STSFan10
on 07 Dec, 2007 01:17
-
erioladastra - 6/12/2007 8:06 PM
"I would hate to speculate much further than what I already have. The team is great at doing the seemingly impossible, and right now the leader ship is outstanding...so we will just have to wait and see. "
It is no different than pulling together the solar array repair EVA on 10A. We can do it. It won't be easy but it could be done.
Preaching to the converted on a pro-NASA, pro-Shuttle site like this. :cool:
Awesome coverage here again.
-
#232
by
MKremer
on 07 Dec, 2007 01:28
-
Ford Mustang - 6/12/2007 7:33 PM
Looks like a set of Xenon lights are on... Wondering when RSS moves to MATE position, if anyone knows.. I've been away for most of the briefing...
No specific time specified. I imagine they'll start whenever everything is finally ready for the rotation to begin, and only those on the pad will know that.
-
#233
by
Michael22090
on 07 Dec, 2007 01:36
-
Just so everyone knows, there is a live streaming view of the pad at this link. It is Camera 060, and it should be a very interesting view for the RSS retract later on. Xenons are on too, so its very easy to see everything.
rtsp://163.205.10.22:8080/encoder/cif.rm
-
#234
by
Ford Mustang
on 07 Dec, 2007 02:06
-
Michael22090 - 6/12/2007 9:36 PM
Just so everyone knows, there is a live streaming view of the pad at this link. It is Camera 060, and it should be a very interesting view for the RSS retract later on. Xenons are on too, so its very easy to see everything.
rtsp://163.205.10.22:8080/encoder/cif.rm
Thanks for that link. If they rotate the RSS while I'm watching, then I'll record it via cam record, as I can't think of any other way to record it.. All my other options are out!
-
#235
by
jimvela
on 07 Dec, 2007 02:15
-
psloss - 6/12/2007 6:13 PM
Craig Covault asking a configuration management question -- does OV-104 or the tank have a different config? Leroy Cain said that OV-105 and OV-103 (on STS-118 and STS-120, respectively) have already flown in the config that OV-104 is in (which flew a "hybrid" config on STS-117). Can't rule out the possibility that wiring config is a contributing cause.
You have sensors that are known to work when tested individually, a point sensor box that works when tested individually, how can this be anything but some sort of signal path problem?
-
#236
by
Andy L
on 07 Dec, 2007 03:05
-
Read through the thread, great catch up and really great work with the news, even when some other sites were saying different things, though it's the norm for this site to be on top of the game. Great to have these threads live, but also as a catch up for those of us who were at work with no net access. Thanks again.
-
#237
by
Firestarter
on 07 Dec, 2007 03:22
-
Andy L - 6/12/2007 10:05 PM
Read through the thread, great catch up and really great work with the news, even when some other sites were saying different things, though it's the norm for this site to be on top of the game. Great to have these threads live, but also as a catch up for those of us who were at work with no net access. Thanks again.
Well said.
Just shows how it all has to come together for launch, as this was a very smooth processing flow until this happened. Shows how well they did to get three launches off on the first attempt prior to this.
-
#238
by
blueguitarbob
on 07 Dec, 2007 03:34
-
RSS is moving...
-
#239
by
JimO
on 07 Dec, 2007 04:36
-
mkirk - 6/12/2007 7:27 PM
I honestly don't know if this was presented in any of the Ascent Integrated Sims for 118 or subsequent training flows. Even if it did get worked in those I still think it would take the Program past Saturday to get everyone onboard with the new philosophy and to have the procedures and flight rules properly documented. (reference my previous post)
Mark Kirkman
The Booster console team apparently already has prepared a fairly mature draft of the FR's for handling ECO votes when they are known to be 'fail wet' (based on the new instrumentation). They're probably reviewing all sim and analysis experience as we type, and will prepare their pitch tomorrow morning. If they can demonstrate that their decision tree or flow chart representation, needed for fast look-up during time-critical ascent, actually correctly responds to all possible permutations, they ought to be able to get it approved at the MMT.
I don't think the crew is deeply involved -- these FR's are all for MCC calls, and the crew just has to be aware of the range of keyboard inputs or switch throws they may be called upon to make.
I served as Neil Hutchison's panel secretary in 1979-1980 when he kicked off the very FIRST 'Shuttle Ascent Flight rules' panel meetings, and I documented the rationales, reasoning, and disagreements for the record and for wider distribution. Then I was on Neil's 'Silver Team' -- the very first shuttle Ascent Shift -- that made it all work on April 12, 1981, at the OMS/RCS Propulsion console. For all our prep, what a bold leap into the unknown THAT morning was.
And no, NONE of us was watching TV of the liftoff. We had our data screens to concentrate on.
