Author Topic: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging  (Read 6736 times)

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #20 on: 11/28/2007 03:02 PM »
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mr.columbus - 28/11/2007  3:46 PM
That is of course also the reason why China, India, Israel, South Korea, Ukraine etc. have joined the Galileo program and committed several hundred million euro for its implementation - and as far as I see it those countries would not commit funds to it if it would just be "largely redundant" or a "mere European job program."

True.  Galileo is a "mere Asian jobs program".  Since the 1960s low cost manufacturing has been moving moving from the USA and Europe to Asia.

The extra accuracy is only valid if the public can do something useful with it.

Offline meiza

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #21 on: 11/28/2007 03:05 PM »
I'm more interested in actual hard reporting on HOW Galileo is handled. Is it done competently? Is there corruption? Is competition fair? What technical alternatives exist? etc etc...

You mostly either get lamenting "it's bad, should be canceled" or "it's great". Both arguments lack the depth. I don't think there is enough good space, defence and public procurement industry inside journalism tradition in Europe. (Prove me wrong...) The national fragmentation and language barriers of course are a significant problem with that.

There have been some good comments in this thread.

Offline sammie

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #22 on: 11/28/2007 03:16 PM »
I didn't mean to drag this whole discussion into a question of Europe, Nationhood and possible european citizenship. I only think it's entirely conceivable that the EU can spawn a product or policy that goes beyond rational explanation. It has done so on numerous occasion, without being a state in the original sense of the word.

Global Positioning and navigation isn't groundbreaking, neither is it entirely needed with foreign systems that can be used on the cheap. There is hardly a business model for galileo, thus the rationalisation has to come from technical spin-offs and prestige. I think that the finance being freed up for Galileo could possible be used for better ends, or should not have been gathered by the Member States in the first place.

edit
Meiza has a good point. It seems Galileo has been decided upon by the politicians and will, safe for further technical hurdles, become reality. So whether Galileo is good or bad has sort of become a moot point.

From my point of view, the decision was purely a political one, horse trading at European Level. I assume, although not sure, that Galileo is a project done under the "just return" policy also adopted by ESA, meaning that money invested by the project members will be returned in the shape of contracts and investments in "national" companies. The whole political issue that held up negotiations leading up to the current compromise was the question whom owned the left-over funds now transferred to Galileo, and thus whom was entitled to more work.

Whether the "just return" is a good way of European cooperation is questionable, it means that there are going to be quota, meaning that quality of suppliers are often trumpted by location. Positive discrimination is the opposite of free and unfethered competition.
"The dreams ain't broken downhere, they're just walking with a limp"

Offline EE Scott

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #23 on: 11/30/2007 10:56 AM »
Scott

Offline eeergo

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #24 on: 11/30/2007 11:08 AM »
"The decision was made without the backing of Spain, which had demanded that it host a ground station for the network of 30 orbiting satellites."

Sigh... same old, same old.
-DaviD-

Offline blairf

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #25 on: 11/30/2007 01:28 PM »
Galileo will not operate under jus retour.

Offline discovery_fan

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RE: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #26 on: 11/30/2007 01:32 PM »
I fear that the outcome of the galileo project will be the following:
The Galileo system will need more money then estimated (as all government projects do), and will be in a constant need of more funds. Goverments are also in a constant need of more funds, beacause there are allways huge budget deficits no matter how large the tax burden allready is.
Who will get the check first? My experience tells me it will be the private transportation sector (that 80% of the price we pay at gas stations is taxes is still not enough).

After Galileo is completed, they will introduce a mandatory Galileo based Road Pricing system in the EU.
It will be mandatory for all personal private vehicles as well as comercial trucks etc., europeanwide.
A small ammount of the moneyflow generated by that will be used to finance galileo and traffic infrastructure, the main share will go into deficit social systems.

Offline JIS

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RE: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #27 on: 11/30/2007 02:05 PM »
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mr.columbus - 27/11/2007  7:21 AM

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mtakala24 - 26/11/2007  4:39 PM

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mr.columbus - 24/11/2007  11:38 AM

It is about time that they agree on how to proceed with Galileo. Using agricultural money of about 1.6 billion EUR is certainly a good idea to finance Galileo

Do you realise how many people will lose their jobs - at least here in southern parts of Finland, even the bigger agricultural installations are in danger.

The agricultural money that those farms have been receiving, is described as "temporary permanent subsidies" :) Now they are arguing about what temporary permanent thing means :)

The answer to your question on how many people will lose their jobs in Finland or elsewhere because of the Galileo funding decision is: none. The 1.6 billion now used are unused money which would be returned to the memberstates into their general budget - one reason Germany was against the funding proposal, because - as the largest net-payer - it would have received about 500 million back from those 1.6 billion.

As I'm paying tax in the UK I hope UK won't take part in Galileo and also won't pay any subsidy to farmers. I'm against any "green taxes" too.
It would be better to direct more money to space probes and cooperation with NASA.
'Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill' - Old Greek experience

Offline Terry Rocket

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RE: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #28 on: 11/30/2007 03:08 PM »
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JIS - 30/11/2007  9:05 AM

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mr.columbus - 27/11/2007  7:21 AM

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mtakala24 - 26/11/2007  4:39 PM

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mr.columbus - 24/11/2007  11:38 AM

It is about time that they agree on how to proceed with Galileo. Using agricultural money of about 1.6 billion EUR is certainly a good idea to finance Galileo

Do you realise how many people will lose their jobs - at least here in southern parts of Finland, even the bigger agricultural installations are in danger.

The agricultural money that those farms have been receiving, is described as "temporary permanent subsidies" :) Now they are arguing about what temporary permanent thing means :)

The answer to your question on how many people will lose their jobs in Finland or elsewhere because of the Galileo funding decision is: none. The 1.6 billion now used are unused money which would be returned to the memberstates into their general budget - one reason Germany was against the funding proposal, because - as the largest net-payer - it would have received about 500 million back from those 1.6 billion.

As I'm paying tax in the UK I hope UK won't take part in Galileo and also won't pay any subsidy to farmers. I'm against any "green taxes" too.
It would be better to direct more money to space probes and cooperation with NASA.

I agree with you.

Offline HIPAR

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #29 on: 11/30/2007 03:23 PM »
The whole world is waiting for superior EuroTech to provide a satellite navigation system that actually works.

Offline sammie

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #30 on: 11/30/2007 03:29 PM »
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After Galileo is completed, they will introduce a mandatory Galileo based Road Pricing system in the EU.
It will be mandatory for all personal private vehicles as well as comercial trucks etc., europeanwide.
A small ammount of the moneyflow generated by that will be used to finance galileo and traffic infrastructure, the main share will go into deficit social systems.

Maybe off topic, but this seems highly unlikely, because taxes are national matters and veto subjects. So the EU can't really decide on a EU wide tax for all Member States. One state will be suffecient to block such a foolish proposal, even say Malta.

Look Galileo is going to cost more, I've yet to see the first government project that doesn't. But I don't buy this EU big brother theory. And I'm better versed at the workings of the EU then spacecraft.

"The dreams ain't broken downhere, they're just walking with a limp"

Offline meiza

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #31 on: 11/30/2007 04:52 PM »
Since road vehicles cause health problems and kill people in cities, it makes sense to at least consider some road taxes at least in the rush hour time, to make their real costs visible to the user and to guide to a more optimal total use of transportation. How much money do you save from eliminating so many asthmas, heart attacks and lung cancers?
But the EU should not, and as far as I know, is not doing this, it's not even the countries, but the cities that decide it themselves.

Offline CentEur

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RE: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #32 on: 11/30/2007 08:38 PM »
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JIS - 30/11/2007  4:05 PM

As I'm paying tax in the UK I hope UK won't take part in Galileo and also won't pay any subsidy to farmers. I'm against any "green taxes" too.
It would be better to direct more money to space probes and cooperation with NASA.

Every time I read the urge to direct more UK money to cooperation with NASA, it reminds me the reports of Germans getting furious about their euro wasted when X-38 project was canceled.  Which brings the question - has ESA ever managed to waste UK money so bad?

Offline eeergo

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Re: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #33 on: 11/30/2007 09:06 PM »

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eeergo - 30/11/2007 12:08 PM "The decision was made without the backing of Spain, which had demanded that it host a ground station for the network of 30 orbiting satellites." Sigh... same old, same old.

Well, seems not everything is bad news for Spain :)

Apparently, they've reached a document which gives the tracking station in Spain a role equivalent to those in Italy and Germany. They call it on-line, though I don't know what that means exactly.

I can't find a link to this news in English, so in case anyone is interested, one from ElPais (in Spanish):

-DaviD-

Offline CuddlyRocket

RE: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #34 on: 12/01/2007 05:54 AM »
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JIS - 30/11/2007  3:05 PM

As I'm paying tax in the UK I hope UK won't take part in Galileo and also won't pay any subsidy to farmers. I'm against any "green taxes" too.
Good luck with that! Paying subsidies to farmers is something virtually every developed nation does (New Zealand, I believe is an exception). No British Government has been against paying subsidies to farmers, and it is the policy of the Conservative, Labour and Liberal parties. They only differ in how they'll pay the subsidies (direct payments, price support as in the CAP, etc) and what for (food production, environmental maintenance, etc).

The reason that the EU has spare money from its agricultural budget is down to the US subsidies to its farmers disguised as limiting its dependence of foreign oil - i.e. turning food into ethanol. This has raised the price of grain on world markets, thereby reducing the cost of the EU's price maintenace. So effectively, the US taxpayer is paying for Galileo. Thanks guys! :)

Offline neviden

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RE: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #35 on: 12/01/2007 11:19 AM »
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CentEur - 30/11/2007  10:38 PM
Every time I read the urge to direct more UK money to cooperation with NASA, it reminds me the reports of Germans getting furious about their euro wasted when X-38 project was canceled.  Which brings the question - has ESA ever managed to waste UK money so bad?
I do wonder the same thing.

Why would anyone support giving money to someone that has a history of practically dumping billions of dollars down the drain for no reason at all. The difference between ESA and NASA is that one thinks that spending money for 100 million euro Ariane 5 rocket for some mission is expensive (ATVs?) and the other one thinks that a new unneeded, underpowered rocket that will cost 15 billion dollars is cheap. Oh yeah, and let us not forget that classic Let us build enormously expensive ISS so that we can promptly dump it in the ocean thing..

If anything I would support giving more money to Russians.. at least they have some common sense in how to do things efficiently (most of the time)..

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CuddlyRocket - 1/12/2007  7:54 AM
The reason that the EU has spare money from its agricultural budget is down to the US subsidies to its farmers disguised as limiting its dependence of foreign oil - i.e. turning food into ethanol. This has raised the price of grain on world markets, thereby reducing the cost of the EU's price maintenace. So effectively, the US taxpayer is paying for Galileo. Thanks guys! :)
So true and so funny :)

Europe will be better off it dumps money to high tech research then to things that will support inefficient farms.. Galileo is not a bad idea in that case.

Offline EE Scott

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RE: Galileo 'compromise' is emerging
« Reply #36 on: 12/01/2007 11:20 AM »
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CuddlyRocket - 1/12/2007  1:54 AM

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JIS - 30/11/2007  3:05 PM

As I'm paying tax in the UK I hope UK won't take part in Galileo and also won't pay any subsidy to farmers. I'm against any "green taxes" too.
Good luck with that! Paying subsidies to farmers is something virtually every developed nation does (New Zealand, I believe is an exception). No British Government has been against paying subsidies to farmers, and it is the policy of the Conservative, Labour and Liberal parties. They only differ in how they'll pay the subsidies (direct payments, price support as in the CAP, etc) and what for (food production, environmental maintenance, etc).

The reason that the EU has spare money from its agricultural budget is down to the US subsidies to its farmers disguised as limiting its dependence of foreign oil - i.e. turning food into ethanol. This has raised the price of grain on world markets, thereby reducing the cost of the EU's price maintenace. So effectively, the US taxpayer is paying for Galileo. Thanks guys! :)

That is a very funny observation!    :laugh:

Isn't it funny how the world works sometimes?
Scott

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