Author Topic: Blue Origin Update and Discussion Thread  (Read 1027848 times)

Online Gliderflyer

Re: Blue Origin Update and Discussion Thread
« Reply #1920 on: 03/08/2017 04:38 pm »
The "wings" are probably for cross-range, yes... But they will have little or no effect on the need (or not) for a reentry burn. The stage is ballistic and will impact the atmosphere at a pretty steep angle. Wings won't make much difference, the strength of the structure and its heat resistance is more important.
The wings might actually have a non-trivial effect on reentry. If they are landing 750 miles downrange, and assuming their first stage apogee is similar to the Falcon 9 (~100 miles or so), their trajectory will be much flatter. Increasing the L/D of the stage would allow them to slow down higher up in the atmosphere and reduce the heating rates, in addition to increasing the cross-range capability.
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Offline suncity

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Re: Blue Origin Update and Discussion Thread
« Reply #1921 on: 03/08/2017 04:45 pm »
Let's talk about the first stage wings for a moment (not the canards).

Methinks they are going to use the wings to increase surface area, generate a bit of lift for cross-range capability, and eliminate the need for a reentry burn.  Thoughts?

The wings make me think about the Soyuz reentry. If they go on a ballistic trajectory, the craft experience very high g-load. If they "fly" by generating lift thanks to their asset, they reduce the g-load significantly (by spending more time in the upper atmosphere, dissipating cinetic energy at a slower pace).

I suspect the wings will be used for the same purpose, to generate lift and "fly" for a while, taking more time to reduce the speed than it would be possible with a ballistic reentry. It make sense if the reentry will be made - as they claim - at higher speed than Falcon 9.   

Online Lars-J

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Re: Blue Origin Update and Discussion Thread
« Reply #1922 on: 03/08/2017 04:48 pm »
The "wings" are probably for cross-range, yes... But they will have little or no effect on the need (or not) for a reentry burn. The stage is ballistic and will impact the atmosphere at a pretty steep angle. Wings won't make much difference, the strength of the structure and its heat resistance is more important.
The wings might actually have a non-trivial effect on reentry. If they are landing 750 miles downrange, and assuming their first stage apogee is similar to the Falcon 9 (~100 miles or so), their trajectory will be much flatter. Increasing the L/D of the stage would allow them to slow down higher up in the atmosphere and reduce the heating rates, in addition to increasing the cross-range capability.

That's a good point. So this could be a first stage trajectory more similar to Atlas V (burns longer and goes further) rather than F9 (stages pretty early). We'll have to wait and see.

Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Re: Blue Origin Update and Discussion Thread
« Reply #1923 on: 03/08/2017 05:46 pm »
OneWeb has reserved five New Glenn Launches:

https://twitter.com/blueorigin/status/839470024012214272

Edit for original source
« Last Edit: 03/08/2017 05:56 pm by Ronsmytheiii »

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Re: Blue Origin Update and Discussion Thread
« Reply #1924 on: 03/11/2017 05:24 am »
Quote
Congratulations @blueorigin New Shepard Team on receiving Goddard Trophy. So well deserved! Bravo! Keep inspiring! #GoddardDinner @ClayMowry

https://twitter.com/spacechelle/status/840408335174246401

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This is a team award. Individuals don't make great progress in space. It's too hard - @JeffBezos accepts Goddard Trophy for @blueorigin team

https://twitter.com/spacechelle/status/840404350774190082

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#FridayFunFact - did you know that @JeffBezos 15-year-old son's name is Goddard after Dr. Robert Goddard

#GoddardDinner #SpaceProm

https://twitter.com/spacechelle/status/840403173865074689

Offline AncientU

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Re: Blue Origin Update and Discussion Thread
« Reply #1925 on: 03/11/2017 12:31 pm »
Let's talk about the first stage wings for a moment (not the canards).

Methinks they are going to use the wings to increase surface area, generate a bit of lift for cross-range capability, and eliminate the need for a reentry burn.  Thoughts?

The wings make me think about the Soyuz reentry. If they go on a ballistic trajectory, the craft experience very high g-load. If they "fly" by generating lift thanks to their asset, they reduce the g-load significantly (by spending more time in the upper atmosphere, dissipating cinetic energy at a slower pace).

I suspect the wings will be used for the same purpose, to generate lift and "fly" for a while, taking more time to reduce the speed than it would be possible with a ballistic reentry. It make sense if the reentry will be made - as they claim - at higher speed than Falcon 9.

For the 'wings' to work, wouldn't more of the  stage cylinder be subject to reentry heating?  How much boil-off will that cost compared to a deceleration burn and end-on reentry?
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Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Blue Origin Update and Discussion Thread
« Reply #1926 on: 03/11/2017 03:17 pm »
The wings might actually have a non-trivial effect on reentry. If they are landing 750 miles downrange, and assuming their first stage apogee is similar to the Falcon 9 (~100 miles or so), their trajectory will be much flatter. Increasing the L/D of the stage would allow them to slow down higher up in the atmosphere and reduce the heating rates, in addition to increasing the cross-range capability.
You know, if your actual primary goal is manned space flight, a flatter, less loft trajectory is a good thing when dealing with launch aborts. Just saying...
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Offline ZachF

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Re: Blue Origin Update and Discussion Thread
« Reply #1927 on: 03/12/2017 06:09 pm »
Let's talk about the first stage wings for a moment (not the canards).

Methinks they are going to use the wings to increase surface area, generate a bit of lift for cross-range capability, and eliminate the need for a reentry burn.  Thoughts?

The wings make me think about the Soyuz reentry. If they go on a ballistic trajectory, the craft experience very high g-load. If they "fly" by generating lift thanks to their asset, they reduce the g-load significantly (by spending more time in the upper atmosphere, dissipating cinetic energy at a slower pace).

I suspect the wings will be used for the same purpose, to generate lift and "fly" for a while, taking more time to reduce the speed than it would be possible with a ballistic reentry. It make sense if the reentry will be made - as they claim - at higher speed than Falcon 9.

It would be interesting the see the math on how much these wings are supposed to weigh versus the fuel weight for a boostback burn...
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Offline Dante80

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Re: Blue Origin Update and Discussion Thread
« Reply #1928 on: 03/13/2017 01:18 am »
A boostback burn may not even be applicable to the flight profile that this monster of a stage (the F9 S1 looks like a fragile fashion model with anorexia in comparison) is designed for.

We don't know the whole story, the amount of information we have is limited. Nevertheless, the engineers at Blue are pretty smart guys, and those wings are definitely not put there for aesthetic purposes.

Lets see how this unfolds.. :)
« Last Edit: 03/13/2017 01:19 am by Dante80 »

Offline jpo234

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Re: Blue Origin Update and Discussion Thread
« Reply #1929 on: 03/13/2017 08:18 am »
If New Glenn will launch before the end of the decade, shouldn't the recovery ship (New Noa? Noa 2?) be somewhere in a ship yard by now?

Is it possible to find it from public records?
« Last Edit: 03/13/2017 08:23 am by jpo234 »
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Re: Blue Origin Update and Discussion Thread
« Reply #1930 on: 03/13/2017 12:44 pm »
Peter B. de Selding's write-up of Jeff Bezos' talk a week ago:

https://www.spaceintelreport.com/blue-origins-bezos-barnstorming-to-lead-satellite-industry-to-new-equilibrium

Explains philosophy of growing up/out from suborbital experience.

Online ZachS09

Re: Blue Origin Update and Discussion Thread
« Reply #1931 on: 03/13/2017 01:15 pm »
Remind me if this question was answered before:

What "drone ship" will New Glenn utilize when barging? Obviously not OCISLY, but something else that Blue Origin can use for themselves.
Because the Falcon Heavy Test Flight was successful, it has inspired thousands of people to consider changing the future of space travel.

Offline jpo234

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Re: Blue Origin Update and Discussion Thread
« Reply #1932 on: 03/13/2017 01:26 pm »
Remind me if this question was answered before:

What "drone ship" will New Glenn utilize when barging? Obviously not OCISLY, but something else that Blue Origin can use for themselves.

According to a comment by /u/Ivebeenfurthereven :
Quote from: /u/Ivebeenfurthereven
As a naval architect I note with interest that their 'barge' looks like a converted VLCC (very large crude carrier - an oil supertanker).



« Last Edit: 03/13/2017 01:29 pm by jpo234 »
You want to be inspired by things. You want to wake up in the morning and think the future is going to be great. That's what being a spacefaring civilization is all about. It's about believing in the future and believing the future will be better than the past. And I can't think of anything more exciting than being out there among the stars.

Online Navier–Stokes

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Re: Blue Origin Update and Discussion Thread
« Reply #1933 on: 03/13/2017 01:46 pm »
Peter B. de Selding's write-up of Jeff Bezos' talk a week ago:

https://www.spaceintelreport.com/blue-origins-bezos-barnstorming-to-lead-satellite-industry-to-new-equilibrium

Explains philosophy of growing up/out from suborbital experience.

Confirmed that New Glenn will not have a re-entry burn:
Quote
It’s designed so that we don't need to do an in-space deceleration burn, which saves on propellant. it’s a performance and efficiency improvement, not having to do that in space deceleration burn.
« Last Edit: 03/13/2017 01:47 pm by Navier–Stokes »

Offline Jim

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Re: Blue Origin Update and Discussion Thread
« Reply #1934 on: 03/13/2017 02:40 pm »
Remind me if this question was answered before:

What "drone ship" will New Glenn utilize when barging? Obviously not OCISLY, but something else that Blue Origin can use for themselves.

According to a comment by /u/Ivebeenfurthereven :
Quote from: /u/Ivebeenfurthereven
As a naval architect I note with interest that their 'barge' looks like a converted VLCC (very large crude carrier - an oil supertanker).


It would have to be compatible with Port Canaveral.

Offline ZachF

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Re: Blue Origin Update and Discussion Thread
« Reply #1935 on: 03/13/2017 02:47 pm »
Remind me if this question was answered before:

What "drone ship" will New Glenn utilize when barging? Obviously not OCISLY, but something else that Blue Origin can use for themselves.

According to a comment by /u/Ivebeenfurthereven :
Quote from: /u/Ivebeenfurthereven
As a naval architect I note with interest that their 'barge' looks like a converted VLCC (very large crude carrier - an oil supertanker).

looks more like a converted container ship IMHO.
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Offline jpo234

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Re: Blue Origin Update and Discussion Thread
« Reply #1936 on: 03/13/2017 03:33 pm »
Remind me if this question was answered before:

What "drone ship" will New Glenn utilize when barging? Obviously not OCISLY, but something else that Blue Origin can use for themselves.

According to a comment by /u/Ivebeenfurthereven :
Quote from: /u/Ivebeenfurthereven
As a naval architect I note with interest that their 'barge' looks like a converted VLCC (very large crude carrier - an oil supertanker).

looks more like a converted container ship IMHO.

Don't think so. If you do a Google image search for ULCS (Ultra Large Container Ship) you will see, that they have the bridge structure in the middle of the ship:




Crude Carriers have the bridge located at the end of the deck, which is the location on Blue's rocket carrier:

You want to be inspired by things. You want to wake up in the morning and think the future is going to be great. That's what being a spacefaring civilization is all about. It's about believing in the future and believing the future will be better than the past. And I can't think of anything more exciting than being out there among the stars.

Offline Stan-1967

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Re: Blue Origin Update and Discussion Thread
« Reply #1937 on: 03/13/2017 03:55 pm »
The Blue Origin approach to landing on a moving ship is very interesting to compare against not only SpaceX, but also other discussions on this site regarding precision landing on Mars.   The questions surrounding what instrumentation is needed for precision, as well as the need or reliance on communication between the stage and the landing site is very different under the Blue Origin approach.

The most simple precision approach is what SpaceX is currently doing.   GPS provides all the information needed to land the stage.   Spatial coordinates are loaded prior to launch, and the stage finds the control solution given the available inputs.  The time dimension is useful for calculations of velocity & acceleration, as well as projecting forward in time to converge on the landing solution.  However the time interval from boostback to landing does not matter.

In contrast, Blue Origin seems to have a time dimension that is just as critical as the spatial coordinates. 
Consider the different possibilities:

1.  Mimic the SpaceX approach to deliver the stage to a defined spatial coordinate at very precise time.   To do this you must also maneuver the landing ship to the exact coordinates at the exact time the rocket stage arrives.  This has the added dimension of time added to the SpaceX approach.   Doable?  probably, but it seems like it severely constrains the set of computed solutions available for a successful landing

2.  Depart from fixed spatial coordinates and define the landing zone on a frame of reference independent from the surface of the earth.  This means that the solution has a non zero velocity component relative to the earths surface, but the landing pads relative velocity will be zero.  This seems trivial to a computational algorithm.  The ship needs as good precision as the rocket.   It will need to control its position along a vector in synchronization with the landing rocket.

3.  Guide the rocket stage to a terminal window where onboard sensors acquire the landing zone and compute the solution.  This could take the form of sensors contained solely in the rocket, or it could share information by placing navigational aids on the ship that the returning rocket can use for guidance.

Whatever the solution ends up being, I see that Blue Origin has added manageable complexity in return for some perceived operational benefits.    The SpaceX approach looks like a JDAM smart bomb, and Blue Origin may end up looking like the Chinese DF-21

Offline Jim

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Re: Blue Origin Update and Discussion Thread
« Reply #1938 on: 03/13/2017 04:01 pm »

Don't think so. If you do a Google image search for ULCS (Ultra Large Container Ship) you will see, that they have the bridge structure in the middle of the ship:

Crude Carriers have the bridge located at the end of the deck, which is the location on Blue's rocket carrier:


It can't be either VL or UL.  The port is not sized for them.

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Re: Blue Origin Update and Discussion Thread
« Reply #1939 on: 03/13/2017 04:13 pm »

Don't think so. If you do a Google image search for ULCS (Ultra Large Container Ship) you will see, that they have the bridge structure in the middle of the ship:

Crude Carriers have the bridge located at the end of the deck, which is the location on Blue's rocket carrier:


It can't be either VL or UL.  The port is not sized for them.

And the ship in the rendering is only about 200m long, based on a comparison to the booster diameter.

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