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#320
by
GLS
on 21 Dec, 2007 15:50
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Susan27 - 21/12/2007 10:57 AM
Hi,
When watching (RWY 24?) final approaches at EDW AFB I recognized a strange black "object" (looking a bit like a triangle on the desert-ground) located directly between the PAPI lights (on the extended centerline) in front of the RWY. You can see the same object I think at White Sands...
Do you know what this object exatcly is? I assume it must have something to do with the PAPI approach system or even with the MLS-antennas(?)...but I am very unsure...
Do you know what that is...?
Thanks in advance!
Kind regards
I think that's an aim point... (don't know if it's used by the shuttle, lot's of aircraft in that area...) looks like it's just a triangle and a line painted on the lakebed.
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#321
by
pr1268
on 21 Dec, 2007 16:42
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Speaking of EDW, has the Shuttle ever landed on the concrete runway? My recollection of EDW Shuttle landings always has it touching down on the dry lake bed. Thanks!
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#322
by
Jim
on 21 Dec, 2007 16:51
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pr1268 - 21/12/2007 12:42 PM
Speaking of EDW, has the Shuttle ever landed on the concrete runway? My recollection of EDW Shuttle landings always has it touching down on the dry lake bed. Thanks!
Many have landed on the concrete runway starting with STS-4, around 20 times
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#323
by
psloss
on 21 Dec, 2007 16:53
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pr1268 - 21/12/2007 12:42 PM
Speaking of EDW, has the Shuttle ever landed on the concrete runway? My recollection of EDW Shuttle landings always has it touching down on the dry lake bed. Thanks!
It's pretty much the opposite -- for a long time, orbiters have landed on the concrete runway (22/04) at Edwards.
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#324
by
GLS
on 21 Dec, 2007 16:54
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pr1268 - 21/12/2007 5:42 PM
Speaking of EDW, has the Shuttle ever landed on the concrete runway? My recollection of EDW Shuttle landings always has it touching down on the dry lake bed. Thanks!
Most landings are on the concrete runway (22-04). Early in the program the landings were on the lakebed runways because you have a lot more space to brake and more space to *screw up*... In fact STS 37 landed short of the runway (AFAIR someone got the winds wrong)... luckly it was in the lakebed so there was no problem! Of the top of my head the last landing in the lakebed was like in 1992 or 93...
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#325
by
psloss
on 21 Dec, 2007 16:56
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GLS - 21/12/2007 12:54 PM
Of the top of my head the last landing in the lakebed was in like in 1992 or 93...
According to Jenkins, the last one was STS-44 in late 1991. (They also did a no-braking test on that landing.)
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#326
by
GLS
on 21 Dec, 2007 16:58
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psloss - 21/12/2007 5:56 PM
GLS - 21/12/2007 12:54 PM
Of the top of my head the last landing in the lakebed was in like in 1992 or 93...
According to Jenkins, the last one was STS-44 in late 1991. (They also did a no-braking test on that landing.)
Thanks psloss, I don't have my "stuff" with me right now...
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#327
by
joema
on 21 Dec, 2007 21:09
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Susan27 - 15/12/2007 7:48 AM
...Is there a special reason why the CMR does not bring the shuttle to a complete stop a bit faster? Is the deal of wear and tear of the wheel brakes (main gear) so extreme?...
According to Jenkins's History of the Space Transportation System, the orbiter's tires are undersized for the vehicle weight and landing speed. This is because they were designed early in the program based on certain weight assumptions. Weight growth later happened, and the tires weren't re-sized to accommodate that, which reduces safety margins. Jenkins says the tires are operated above their rated load, even in a nominal landing. This in turn results in lots of time and effort spent to "baby" the tires and brakes. It's possible what you observe is just this.
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#328
by
John2375
on 21 Dec, 2007 22:59
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I * think* all concrete runway landings have been on runway 22, except for STS-64 - I believe that's the only to ever land on runway 4...
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#329
by
psloss
on 22 Dec, 2007 00:37
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John2375 - 21/12/2007 6:59 PM
I * think* all concrete runway landings have been on runway 22, except for STS-64 - I believe that's the only to ever land on runway 4...
STS-33R also landed on the 04 end of the runway.
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#330
by
TJL
on 22 Dec, 2007 02:38
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Atlantis / STS-44 was actually the only orbiter to land on Edwards' Runway 05.
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#331
by
ChrisGebhardt
on 22 Dec, 2007 03:24
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psloss - 21/12/2007 8:37 PM
John2375 - 21/12/2007 6:59 PM
I * think* all concrete runway landings have been on runway 22, except for STS-64 - I believe that's the only to ever land on runway 4...
STS-33R also landed on the 04 end of the runway.
STS-33R... what does the R stand for. Thanks.
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#332
by
MKremer
on 22 Dec, 2007 03:34
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Trekkie07 - 21/12/2007 10:24 PM
STS-33R... what does the R stand for. Thanks.
At that point in time, the "R" may have referred to "Restricted", since the -33 mission's purpose was deploying a classified DoD satellite payload.
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#333
by
svenge
on 22 Dec, 2007 03:59
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Actually, "R" stood for "Reflight" (as did STS-26R through STS-33R, inclusive.) During the early 80s, even after the switch from STS-# to STS-##-X (like Challenger's final mission STS-51-L), each individual planned mission still had an internal STS-# designation. The final one used in that designation system was STS-51-L's "STS-33" (even though it was only the 25th mission, schedule changes and cancellations used up 8 earlier STS numbers) so to keep things from getting confused, all post-Return To Flight missions up to STS-33 were appended with an "R" so that one wouldn't refer to pre-Challenger missions accidentally.
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#334
by
psloss
on 22 Dec, 2007 11:20
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FWIW, on the STS-64 landing the last winds update to the crew approaching the HAC was 030 at 5 (knots) peaking to 16. Probably more desirable as a headwind than a tailwind...
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#335
by
Jim
on 22 Dec, 2007 12:56
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svenge - 21/12/2007 11:59 PM
Actually, "R" stood for "Reflight" (as did STS-26R through STS-33R, inclusive.) During the early 80s, even after the switch from STS-# to STS-##-X (like Challenger's final mission STS-51-L), each individual planned mission still had an internal STS-# designation. The final one used in that designation system was STS-51-L's "STS-33" (even though it was only the 25th mission, schedule changes and cancellations used up 8 earlier STS numbers) so to keep things from getting confused, all post-Return To Flight missions up to STS-33 were appended with an "R" so that one wouldn't refer to pre-Challenger missions accidentally.
The "R" is only a KSC thing, it wasn't a official shuttle program designation
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#336
by
Susan27
on 22 Dec, 2007 13:52
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Hi,
I have 2 questions concerning the
drag chute:
1) Is there kind of a
fixed groundspeed (knots) when the chute will be activated for braking? Does it depend on the wind component or so? If so could you give me an approcimately speed nevertheless...?
2) At what exact
speed the chute will be
shot away, and does that speed varies of the wind component?
Thanks very much!
Kind regards
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#337
by
mkirk
on 22 Dec, 2007 14:28
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Susan27 - 22/12/2007 8:52 AM
Hi,
I have 2 questions concerning the drag chute:
1) Is there kind of a fixed groundspeed (knots) when the chute will be activated for braking? Does it depend on the wind component or so? If so could you give me an approcimately speed nevertheless...?
2) At what exact speed the chute will be shot away, and does that speed varies of the wind component?
Thanks very much!
Kind regards
Nominally the drag chute is deployed at 195 knots. The chute is deployed at this time to help give a slight pitch up moment during de-rotation, help relieve main gear loads, and aid in directional stability.
At 60 knots the chute is jettisoned, this speed was selected to ensure that the drag chute and riser Lines separate cleanly from the orbiter and do not bunch up on top of the main engine nozzles. The chute really needs to be gone by 40 knots to ensure this does not happen.
There are Early and Delayed Chute Deployment techniques for crosswind and failed tire scenarios. If the crosswind is above 15 knots the chute is not deployed.
Mark Kirkman
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#338
by
mkirk
on 22 Dec, 2007 14:37
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SiameseCat - 20/12/2007 8:35 PM
During the initial roll, what is the roll rate of the shuttle?
If you are talking about the initial roll after liftoff, the roll rate is around 8 degrees per second. The maneuver is not a pure roll as the vehicle is also pitching over and there is a slight yaw component.
The roll to heads up that occurs at around 5:50'ish into the flight (at a specified inertial velocity, which for ISS missions is 13,200 feet per second) is done at 5 degrees per second.
Mark Kirkman
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#339
by
mkirk
on 22 Dec, 2007 14:53
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Susan27 - 21/12/2007 4:57 AM
Hi,
When watching (RWY 24?) final approaches at EDW AFB I recognized a strange black "object" (looking a bit like a triangle on the desert-ground) located directly between the PAPI lights (on the extended centerline) in front of the RWY. You can see the same object I think at White Sands...
Do you know what this object exatcly is? I assume it must have something to do with the PAPI approach system or even with the MLS-antennas(?)...but I am very unsure...
Do you know what that is...?
Thanks in advance!
Kind regards
These are the visual aim points. The triangle is located at the close in aim point (6500 feet from the runway) and the rectangle is at the nominal aim point (7500 feet from the runway). They are used primarily on the lackbed runways such as White Sands and Edwards. The concrete runways and KSC do not have them, and of the only TAL site to have them was Ben Guerir.
Mark Kirkman
