Author Topic: EELV Solutions for VSE  (Read 97623 times)

Offline Gunther

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Re: EELV Solutions for VSE
« Reply #420 on: 11/23/2007 12:21 AM »
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clongton - 22/11/2007  5:26 PM

There is also a need to be able to start up a lunar program 5 years after STS shutdown…

Maybe someone can help me understand this.  I thought VSE, and hence a lunar program, started several years ago????  What is the 2015 date you are referring to?

Let me understand the two apparent options that are frequently referred to, SDLV vs. EELV:

SDLV:
1)   Spend billions now on an SDLV, hiring thousands of new people now to support Ares 1 (or direct) and Orion development, since the shuttle folks are still flying shuttle (this is already happening).  Eventually ramp up Ares 1 (or direct) and Orion development once shuttle is terminated, saving a portion of the current shuttle work force to support a future lunar program.  
2)   Lay off everyone who is hands on supporting the orbiter, because Orion isn’t flying until 2015, and retaining these folks for 5 years is too expensive.
3)   Start Orion ISS missions in 2015, a 5 year gap.
4)   Transition the folks developing the SDLV at some future time to develop the lander and habitats in support of a 2020 lunar first mission date.
5)   Maintain the SDLV launch vehicle(s) in a state of readiness while waiting for the lander to be developed.

EELV
1)   Do not hire 1,000’s of new people to staff up MSFC and the Ares development now.
2)   Accelerate Orion’s development with the money not spent on SDLV, supporting ISS in 2012, a 2 year gap. Isn’t this what the original contracted schedule supported?
3)   Transition the Shuttle orbiter folks to support Orion processing & integration on EELV immediately following shuttle termination
4)   Transition the remaining shuttle people to the lander and habitat development post 2010, thus retaining all current shuttle personal in fruitful employment supporting lunar missions.
5)   Start flying lunar missions in 2015.


Please help me understand which option saves more jobs while supporting the lunar mission.

Online clongton

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Re: EELV Solutions for VSE
« Reply #421 on: 11/23/2007 01:31 AM »
Quote
Gunther - 22/11/2007  8:21 PM

Quote
clongton - 22/11/2007  5:26 PM

There is also a need to be able to start up a lunar program 5 years after STS shutdown…

Maybe someone can help me understand this.  I thought VSE, and hence a lunar program, started several years ago????  What is the 2015 date you are referring to?

Let me understand the two apparent options that are frequently referred to, SDLV vs. EELV:

SDLV:
1)   Spend billions now on an SDLV, hiring thousands of new people now to support Ares 1 (or direct) and Orion development, since the shuttle folks are still flying shuttle (this is already happening).  Eventually ramp up Ares 1 (or direct) and Orion development once shuttle is terminated, saving a portion of the current shuttle work force to support a future lunar program.  
2)   Lay off everyone who is hands on supporting the orbiter, because Orion isn’t flying until 2015, and retaining these folks for 5 years is too expensive.
3)   Start Orion ISS missions in 2015, a 5 year gap.
4)   Transition the folks developing the SDLV at some future time to develop the lander and habitats in support of a 2020 lunar first mission date.
5)   Maintain the SDLV launch vehicle(s) in a state of readiness while waiting for the lander to be developed.

EELV
1)   Do not hire 1,000’s of new people to staff up MSFC and the Ares development now.
2)   Accelerate Orion’s development with the money not spent on SDLV, supporting ISS in 2012, a 2 year gap. Isn’t this what the original contracted schedule supported?
3)   Transition the Shuttle orbiter folks to support Orion processing & integration on EELV immediately following shuttle termination
4)   Transition the remaining shuttle people to the lander and habitat development post 2010, thus retaining all current shuttle personal in fruitful employment supporting lunar missions.
5)   Start flying lunar missions in 2015.


Please help me understand which option saves more jobs while supporting the lunar mission.
Ross posted this in another thread about the workforce and skill retention issue:
-------------

Might I possibly suggest those who aren't convinced of the seriousness of this issue to take a look at these:-

http://legislative.nasa.gov/hearings/5-2-07%20HCST%20hrg%20charter.pdf
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05230.pdf
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07940.pdf
http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/science/hsy85517.000/hsy85517_0.HTM
http://caib.nasa.gov/events/public_hearings/20030612/transcript.html
http://www.senate.gov/~gov_affairs/030603okeefe.htm
http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/172318main_geveden_quality.pdf
http://www.agiweb.org/gap/legis109/nasa_hearings.html
http://www.agiweb.org/gap/legis109/nasa_hearings_cont.html
http://www.boeing.com/ids/allsystemsgo/issues/vol1/num7/story11.html
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/nasa_workforce_040307.html
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline Jim

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Re: EELV Solutions for VSE
« Reply #422 on: 11/23/2007 02:35 AM »
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Gunther - 22/11/2007  8:21 PM

1)   Spend billions now on an SDLV, hiring thousands of new people now to support Ares 1 (or direct) and Orion development, since the shuttle folks are still flying shuttle (this is already happening).  Eventually ramp up Ares 1 (or direct) and Orion development once shuttle is terminated, saving a portion of the current shuttle work force to support a future lunar program.  


New people are not needed for Ares or Direct

Offline Jim

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Re: EELV Solutions for VSE
« Reply #423 on: 11/23/2007 02:37 AM »
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Gunther - 22/11/2007  8:21 PM

3)   Transition the Shuttle orbiter folks to support Orion processing & integration on EELV immediately following shuttle termination


Shuttle people are not needed for EELV's options.  Orion is processed by the former ISS workers.

Orbiter people are SOL whether it is EELV or SDLV

Offline CFE

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Re: EELV Solutions for VSE
« Reply #424 on: 11/23/2007 06:25 AM »
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Jim - 22/11/2007  8:37 PM

Quote
Gunther - 22/11/2007  8:21 PM

3)   Transition the Shuttle orbiter folks to support Orion processing & integration on EELV immediately following shuttle termination


Shuttle people are not needed for EELV's options.  Orion is processed by the former ISS workers.

Orbiter people are SOL whether it is EELV or SDLV

So the Orion life support people are coming from ISS rather than Orbiter life support?

I would assume that the people who work the Orbiter's OMS would work on the Orion SM propulsion, since the same engine is being used.
"Black Zones" never stopped NASA from flying the shuttle.

Offline Gunther

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Re: EELV Solutions for VSE
« Reply #425 on: 11/23/2007 11:48 AM »
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Jim - 22/11/2007  9:35 PM

Quote
Gunther - 22/11/2007  8:21 PM

1)   Spend billions now on an SDLV, hiring thousands of new people now to support Ares 1 (or direct) and Orion development, since the shuttle folks are still flying shuttle (this is already happening).  Eventually ramp up Ares 1 (or direct) and Orion development once shuttle is terminated, saving a portion of the current shuttle work force to support a future lunar program.  


New people are not needed for Ares or Direct

Tell that to all of the new people that have come in to MSFC in the past 2 years, the new people that Boeing will be hiring to support the US production contract.  On the other hand LM has lost a lot of people at Michoud and will loose most of the rest in the next few years.

Offline Jim

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Re: EELV Solutions for VSE
« Reply #426 on: 11/23/2007 12:46 PM »
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Gunther - 23/11/2007  7:48 AM
 the new people that Boeing will be hiring to support the US production contract.  On the other hand LM has lost a lot of people at Michoud and will loose most of the rest in the next few years.

Both are done in the same facility, net change in people: zero

As for people going to MSFC, minor bump

Offline Jim

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Re: EELV Solutions for VSE
« Reply #427 on: 11/23/2007 12:49 PM »
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CFE - 23/11/2007  2:25 AM

So the Orion life support people are coming from ISS rather than Orbiter life support?

I would assume that the people who work the Orbiter's OMS would work on the Orion SM propulsion, since the same engine is being used.

USA is not processing the CEV.  There won't be a "direct" transfer of personnel from one contract to the other.

The contract (CAPPS)  that processed the ISS components is being "recompeted" for Orion processing.   The bulk of the people  for the new contract will come from CAPPS.  The new contractor will hire the other skills as it sees fit.

Aerojet is responsible for the engine on both systems.  As for handling the "plumbing", any propulsion engineers and techs can handle it

Offline Heg

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RE: EELV Solutions for VSE
« Reply #428 on: 11/28/2007 08:03 PM »
At least you can always zip the file first :laugh:
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Offline Propforce

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Re: EELV Solutions for VSE
« Reply #429 on: 11/28/2007 08:59 PM »
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Jim - 23/11/2007  5:46 AM

Quote
Gunther - 23/11/2007  7:48 AM
 the new people that Boeing will be hiring to support the US production contract.  On the other hand LM has lost a lot of people at Michoud and will loose most of the rest in the next few years.

Both are done in the same facility, net change in people: zero

As for people going to MSFC, minor bump


Boeing has an unofficial direction from NASA, that is "... keep the people in Michoud employeed..." for the sake of local economy after Katrina.  

As for the local contract hires at MSFC, after they've gain all the development experience, it is logical that they "transition" to Boeing during the production phase.


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