Author Topic: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)  (Read 41955 times)

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #180 on: 02/16/2019 11:24 pm »
In the FY 2019 Budget request in FY 2022 the budget for 'ADVANCED CISLUNAR AND SURFACE CAPABILITIES' doubles.
(FY 2019)116.5 (FY 2020)146.0 (FY 2021)163.7 (FY 2022)300.0 (FY 2023)320.3
See page DEXP-51 https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/fy19_nasa_budget_estimates.pdf (large)

So NASA is expecting something to happen in about 3 years time which is about when the landers will on ramp.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #181 on: 02/16/2019 11:47 pm »
If someone wants to test a dewar on the Moon for 6 months this is their chance. Maximum 15 kg including liquid instrumentation, solar panel and radio.

Dewars are useful because of the vacuum between the interior tank and the environment, right?  I'd think you'd need an atmosphere to protect yourself from.  It's a whole new world.

In the early days the hydrogen fuel would be launched from Earth and need protecting from the Earth's atmosphere. When the equipment gets to the Moon the natural vacuum will help. Unfortunately the powerful sun light will cause problems.

Quote
Also, surviving for 14 days at -170C is apparently so fraught that nobody is talking about doing that just yet.  It's in work (both with and without the use of RHUs/RTGs), but early CLPS landers plan to bite it when the sun goes down.

With a period of 28 days the outside of equipment will cycle between -170C and +117C. A sun shield will be needed for the sun and something like 'S' bend legs to deal with the cold ground.
The James Webb Telescope project has paid for the development of some very low temperature electronics.
The CLPS landers shutting down at sunset is why the instrumentation needs its own power supply and radio.

Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #182 on: 02/17/2019 04:02 am »
"Also, surviving for 14 days at -170C is apparently so fraught that nobody is talking about doing that just yet.  It's in work (both with and without the use of RHUs/RTGs), but early CLPS landers plan to bite it when the sun goes down."

Although Astrobotic, for one, did a lot of work on overnight survival including cooling batteries in liquid nitrogen and testing their survivability (I think they had some success with that).  They posted a lot on their GLXP blog but I don't know if any of that material is still available.  So people certainly have been working on it, and I would assume a lot of proprietary work is not being reported yet.  But still not ready for flight, I am sure.

Offline theinternetftw

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #183 on: 02/17/2019 04:27 am »
In the FY 2019 Budget request in FY 2022 the budget for 'ADVANCED CISLUNAR AND SURFACE CAPABILITIES' doubles.
(FY 2019)116.5 (FY 2020)146.0 (FY 2021)163.7 (FY 2022)300.0 (FY 2023)320.3

That line item is for the Human Lander System. Those funding ramps are for human lander studies and contracts and will not match CLPS funding plans.

The small CLPS landers will use the Lunar Discovery and Exploration Program (LDEP) line item, which is projected as being flat at $218M for the next five years.  A summary of that fact is on page 5 of the same PDF you linked (page BUD-4 if you're following NASA's absolutely atrocious page numbering scheme).  There's more info on page 369 (or PS-23) if you want to learn more.

The CLPS landers shutting down at sunset is why the instrumentation needs its own power supply and radio.

I'll just say that all indications are that night survival should not be expected on these first few missions.  Doing it without radioisotope help looks to be an open problem (with work in progress, e.g. Phil's example just above).

If you want to learn more about how NASA is thinking about lunar night survival, you can check out this PDF:
https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/survivethenight2018/program/program-recordings.pdf
Each name on the right side of the schedule links to youtube videos of the respective talks (the video quality, I must warn, is tolerable).  Ron Creel's talk in particular discusses every night survival mission to date.

Edit: I'll go ahead and attach that PDF as well, for posterity.  That website may go away someday, but those youtube videos will likely have a far longer life.
« Last Edit: 02/17/2019 04:33 am by theinternetftw »

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #184 on: 02/17/2019 04:47 am »
Lunar night survival at polar peaks maybe possible without RTG.
Only need to survive a few days and temperature swings aren't meant to be as extreme as equator.

Offline theinternetftw

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #185 on: 02/17/2019 05:13 am »
Lunar night survival at polar peaks maybe possible without RTG.
Only need to survive a few days and temperature swings aren't meant to be as extreme as equator.

Peaks of eternal sunlight (which I still love to call them even though we haven't found a particularly eternal one yet) are usually on peaks or ridges. That's difficult terrain that would probably require some serious landing accuracy.  It also might require some communications help from an orbiter.  I'm a fan of the idea, though.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #186 on: 02/17/2019 03:29 pm »
Lunar night survival at polar peaks maybe possible without RTG.
Only need to survive a few days and temperature swings aren't meant to be as extreme as equator.


Initially but when a Moon base is built 6 month stays on the Moon become possible, the same as happened on the ISS. ISRU propellant will have to be stored until the next ascent. The base and rovers may also use propellant.

Offline theinternetftw

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #187 on: 02/26/2019 10:46 pm »
Cross referencing a new article on CLPS and the human side:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=47522.msg1915524#new

It looks like the CLPS update from that is that the NASA-Center-developed items for near-term CLPS missions have been selected (that selection has nothing to do with any of the acronyms mentioned to date, it's its own thing).  The official release is here, but I'll quote the selection bits.  Note that the "resource prospecting instruments" are probably from Resource Prospector.  It also says the first CLPS task order will be released "this spring", which seems a bit of a walkback from Dr. Z's "next month" (though there's still overlap).

The selections:

Quote
The Linear Energy Transfer Spectrometer will measure the lunar surface radiation environment.

Three resource prospecting instruments have been selected to fly: 

  The Near-Infrared Volatile Spectrometer System is an imaging spectrometer that will measure surface composition.
  The Neutron Spectrometer System and Advanced Neutron Measurements at the Lunar Surface are neutron spectrometers that will measure hydrogen abundance.

The Ion-Trap Mass Spectrometer for Lunar Surface Volatiles instrument is an ion-trap mass spectrometer that will measure volatile contents in the surface and lunar exosphere.

A magnetometer will measure the surface magnetic field.

The Low-frequency Radio Observations from the Near Side Lunar Surface instrument, a radio science instrument, will measure the photoelectron sheath density near the surface.

Three instruments will acquire critical information during entry, descent and landing on the lunar surface, which will inform the design of future landers including the next human lunar lander.

The Stereo Cameras for Lunar Plume-Surface Studies will image the interaction between the lander engine plume as it hits the lunar surface.

The Surface and Exosphere Alterations by Landers payload will monitor how the landing affects the lunar exosphere.

The Navigation Doppler Lidar for Precise Velocity and Range Sensing payload will make precise velocity and ranging measurements during the descent that will help develop precision landing capabilities for future landers.

There also are two technology demonstrations selected to fly.

  The Solar Cell Demonstration Platform for Enabling Long-Term Lunar Surface Power will demonstrate advanced solar arrays for longer mission duration.

  The Lunar Node 1 Navigation Demonstrator will demonstrate a navigational beacon to assist with geolocation for lunar orbiting spacecraft and landers.

Edit: fixed broken link for posterity
« Last Edit: 03/29/2019 07:20 pm by theinternetftw »

Offline theinternetftw

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #188 on: 03/16/2019 07:42 pm »
Looks like we don't get to see task orders.  It was just revealed that the draft of the first one was already released sometime this month to CLPS club members.  Awards before July.  There will be 1-2 task orders per year.

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1106985101433470976

Offline theinternetftw

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #189 on: 03/17/2019 07:45 pm »
Some updates from a symposium held today about Commercial Lunar Missions:

* Astrobotic
    * landing still 2021 Q1
    * still 35kg non-NASA payload (unknown amount reserved for NASA/CLPS)

* Deep Space Systems
    * Focusing on multiple south pole missions.  No timeframe given.
    * Lander can be equipped with static legs, or wheels to become a rover
    * Would be interesting to know how this meshes with previous reporting on them partnering with Intuitive Machines (also a CLPS provider) for landing capability.  Has that partnership changed?

* Masten (already in the Masten thread)
    * XL-1T terrestrial demonstrator will fly this year
    * XL-1 moon mission planned for 2021
    * XL-2 lander in work that can survive lunar night, carry more, land more precisely

* Moon Express
    * Can fly to other moons, too

* OrbitBeyond (TeamIndus)
    * 2020 Q3 launch of the Z-01 lander
    * Lander weight 650kg at launch, 240kg landed mass, 40kg payload

* Lockheed Martin
    * McCandless lander can haul 250kg of payload
    * Solar arrays will gimbal to be useful during more of the lunar day

* SpaceX
    * Was there, standard Wooster speech, which means public info about BFR/Starship
    * Clearly there for offline networking

* SpaceIL
    * Looping orbit raising thought to be easiest part of the Beresheet mission, but star tracker / computer trouble has made it challenging
    * IAI looking to offer Beresheet landers to other customers with slight modifications. 30-60kg payload.
    * Looking for US partners so they can be on-ramped as a CLPS provider

Dumping the source tweet URLs at the end in a way that doesn't fill the thread with embeds on Desktop:

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1107277651042095105
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1107282025034199041
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1107285100528656384
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1107291738295676928
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1107294131695566848
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1107297902429384704
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1107301454505828352
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1107306077580865536
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1107308070454128640
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1107313316920205312

Offline theinternetftw

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #190 on: 03/18/2019 04:39 am »
As SpaceIL is now a CLPS-hopeful, cross-posting this from their first mission's thread:

Also some news about follow-on missions.  This one will not hop (it carries the NASA laser reflector, so if it lands safely they will not risk losing it with a hop).  But by the third mission they will try a hop, or more than one, to study several areas, and they will look at prolonging mission life (no specifics).  A second mission will carry a larger payload than the first (up to 100 kg) and have data management improvements.

Offline theinternetftw

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #191 on: 03/18/2019 10:12 pm »
With the release of the full requested NASA budget breakdown, it can be seen that the CLPS parent program LDEP now has much higher budgets planned for its out-years.  It's gone from a flat budget providing a billion dollars over five years, as estimated in 2019, to $1.8B as estimated in 2020.  With the CLPS contract having a max payout of $2.6B over ten years, it looks like they're now looking to use that up a good bit before that time limit.

Burn brighter, burn faster seems to be the plan.
« Last Edit: 03/19/2019 06:15 am by theinternetftw »

Offline theinternetftw

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #192 on: 03/22/2019 07:07 pm »
This seems to be fallout of Pence trying to inject urgency into NASA's moon efforts.

Large polar lander rover by 2023:

https://twitter.com/AscendingNode/status/1109093447871406085

Feels like Resource Prospector.  Again.

https://twitter.com/AscendingNode/status/1109161100954750976

Apparently this would use HEOMD's budget (probably through ACSC):

https://twitter.com/AscendingNode/status/1109171867196313600

Offline rockets4life97

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #193 on: 03/22/2019 07:15 pm »
Is this a new space race with China?

Offline theinternetftw

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #194 on: 03/22/2019 07:31 pm »
Is this a new space race with China?

Maybe by accident?  I'd bet it's more that they need a cool thing fast and this is low-hanging fruit.

Online saliva_sweet

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #195 on: 03/22/2019 07:52 pm »
I'd bet it's more that they need a cool thing fast and this is low-hanging fruit.

I don't think an administration ever really needs anything from NASA. But if they ask: "Can you put a show on? We'll fund." and the answer is no, that's really bad for NASA. In the long and medium term. Hence the urgency.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #196 on: 03/22/2019 08:42 pm »
This seems to be fallout of Pence trying to inject urgency into NASA's moon efforts.

Large polar lander rover by 2023:

{snip}

Feels like Resource Prospector.  Again.

{snip}

Resource Prospector was 300kg so could be too big for the initial set of CLPS landers. (Xeus was cancelled.) They may however be able to land 100kg rovers by 2023.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #197 on: 03/22/2019 09:20 pm »
Could be Blue Origin's 4,500kg lander which they say can be ready by 2024. The best thing about this lander is NASA won't be up for most of the R&D.


Offline theinternetftw

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #198 on: 03/26/2019 10:12 pm »
The final version of the first CLPS task order was given to the providers today.  Selections in May.

Online Eric Hedman

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Re: Commercial Lunar Payload Services Program (CLPS)
« Reply #199 on: 03/27/2019 12:33 am »
I'm not sure where to put this, but CNBC has an article about competition for lunar landers with human payloads:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/26/nasa-moon-landing-acsc-commercial-competition-to-build-human-landers.html

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