### Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5  (Read 988994 times)

#### meberbs

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5
« Reply #20 on: 10/05/2015 05:31 am »
Quantum physics says that energy exists in discrete packets.  These packets are defined by the plank constant.  A plank constant is the energy in one oscillation (1hz) of rf frequency.  You can't have a a fractional frequency.  There is no 107.4 hz.  The universe won't let you do it.  You either have to broadcast on 107hz or 108hz.

While your post is a fun thought experiment, physics doesn't work the way you presented it. 1 Hz is a human number and has no special meaning to the universe. If any unit system has special significance it would be Planck units. We don't actually know what happens at the Planck scale because it is very small lengths and times. the Planck frequency would be the inverse of the Planck time, which would be a very, very high frequency.

IF the universe does have discrete times, the difference this makes is well beyond our current ability to measure. This would still allow for arbitrarily low frequencies, but they would all be quantized to be equal to the inverse of a discrete number of Planck times. You could have arbitrarily low frequencies (oscillation takes arbitrarily large number of Planck times), so there would be no expectation for rounding errors.

When a photon is emitted it gives the atom that is emitting it momentum equal to what that atom would have gained had it shot out a particle with the same mass at the speed of light.

By this do you mean if it had shot out a particle with 0 mass with infinite proper velocity*? (to solve a problem like that you would need more context so you could set up a proper limit to get rid of the 0 * inf) You unfortunately can't just treat photons like they have mass equal to their energy, and no object with mass can travel at the speed of light.

*Proper velocity is distance measured by observer, divided by time measured by the moving object. I like thinking in terms of it, but it isn't really useful for most calculations, since it uses data split between reference frames.

#### TheTraveller

##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5
« Reply #21 on: 10/05/2015 05:44 am »
Very interesting report; another anomaly.  Newton's laws still intact though.   There is a professor in Greece who claims that an open cone made of YBCO superconductor, with a magnet at the apex generates a thrust.  If this seems off-topic I apologize and will not mind if this post is expunged.   However it is an interesting claim since the thrust measured is in the milliNewtons.    This professor has also been able to patent his device.  Below is a simple drawing of this device, from his patent.

And the Energy to support the claimed Force/Thrust doing Work over a Distance comes from where?

As I see it there is a Force to the right on the cone and an equal but opposite Force to the left on the magnet. Thus no net Force is generated so no need to be concerned as to the source of the Energy.
« Last Edit: 10/05/2015 05:59 am by TheTraveller »
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

#### zellerium

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5
« Reply #22 on: 10/05/2015 05:59 am »
Dave:

I read your paper and was very impressed, very well thought out and put together! Congratulations on a successful experiment. I'm curious though, how do you plan on obtaining 100 times the thrust in your next experiment?

Our paper should be ready to publish in the next week or so. Unfortunately we will not be able to continue this year and will instead focus on graduating on time, the department won't let us skip Senior Spacecraft Design for an individual project. But an Electrical Engineering student has contacted me and expressed interest in doing an EM Drive experiment as his senior project, so perhaps I'll play advisor this year! Maybe that will lead nicely into a Masters or PhD thesis on the topic

#### zen-in

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5
« Reply #23 on: 10/05/2015 06:37 am »
Very interesting report; another anomaly.  Newton's laws still intact though.   There is a professor in Greece who claims that an open cone made of YBCO superconductor, with a magnet at the apex generates a thrust.
...

And the Energy to support the claimed Force/Thrust doing Work over a Distance comes from where?

As I see it there is a Force to the right on the cone and an equal but opposite Force to the left on the magnet. Thus no net Force is generated so no need to be concerned as to the source of the Energy.

Yes it is a free energy machine he is claiming.  I'm surprised a US patent was issued.   The last sentence of the abstract has the following phrase:  "as well as in the production of energy".    But it does show that small amounts of anomalous force can be observed with many different devices.

#### graybeardsyseng

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5
« Reply #24 on: 10/05/2015 07:43 am »
NSF-1701 Paper Update. With thanks to many, I am releasing my paper a day early. I look forward to your commentary.

All the best,
Dave

Dave,

I really like your report - I think this sort of formal documentation is critical to making people fully aware of DIY builders and their contributions to this original research.

I particularly like your contribution to the discussion of Q and the introduction of the QR concept.   I am still going over the implications of the math - I had missed that Yang and NASA had such wildly different methodologies -  I had been focusing too much on the 1-port vs 2-port debate.   However, I will be including a QR calculation in any results I obtain.  I'm going to look at it a little more tonight but I think this approach will be very significant with wideband RF sources like maggies.

Shell - how are you approaching the "Q conundrum"?

Herm
Thanks Herm, the Qr concept is akin to a shape factor, i.e. a 30 to 3dB shape factor being 2.5:1 (or whatever) when talking about bandpass filters. I think it has some merit to "force" unification of methodology.

<edit> clarification of shape factor example
Shape factor was exactly where I was going in my late night noodling and then your post caught my eye.    I was trying to come up with a way to relate the concept for those who aren't familiar with filters and their behavior.   I have always found shape factor to be a challenge to explain to someone who hasn't built or used or quantified filters.

However, I really think there is a similarity here (by that I mean two phenomena which present at least a surface or 1st order similarity without a definite or at least defined conceptual link).   Consider the relationship of shape factor to the magnitude of overshoot. And just some way after midnight unconstrained thoughts - isn't overshoot a bit reminiscent of evanescent waves.  I know I know that's just crazy talk.

Herm
EMdrive - finally - microwaves are good for something other than heating ramen noodles and leftover pizza ;-)

#### Silversheep2011

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5
« Reply #25 on: 10/05/2015 11:01 am »
DIY’s maybe could do with some help here –or see if you can run with it.
Back on subject of “Reducing Thermal Lift”.

Do we think looking in, another direction might help?

What if we take a look at the sheer simplicity of the thermal management system as used on the Lunar Rover Battery and then apply it to the elevated Magnetron heat output?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Roving_Vehicle
quote:
” Power was provided by two 36-volt silver-zinc potassium hydroxide non-rechargeable batteries with a capacity of 121 A·h each (a total of 242 A·h), yielding a range of 57 miles (92 km).[15] These were used to power the drive and steering motors and also a 36-volt utility outlet mounted on the front of the LRV to power the communications relay unit or the TV camera. LRV batteries and electronics were passively cooled, using change-of-phase wax thermal capacitor packages and reflective, upward-facing radiating surfaces. While driving, radiators were covered with mylar blankets to minimize dust accumulation. When stopped, the astronauts would open the blankets, and manually remove excess dust from the cooling surfaces with hand brushes.”

In other words, perhaps it’s better to go down the path of building in improved  ‘thermal capacitance’ rather than high ‘thermal dispersion’ rates in EMdrive test bed setups. In the case of the lunar rover it was a case of using 2.5 pounds or 1.14kgs of wax to absorb the heat and then to releasing it back slowly to space as radiant energy.
The way I see it the EM rig's would then have extended warm up and cool down periods and would better able to handle the thermal cyclically nature when in Operational mode. I would expect to see less in thermal heat changes happing in a smaller thermal band. Between the  ON and OFF modes. To draw an analogy it could liken it, to putting a bigger capacitor in an electrical circuit to better smooth things out.
The hope being of course, that this evens out or smooths out those ‘nasty thermal lift’ eddies and in turn making it easier to separate out further the true EM effect.

1.Someone willing to do a thermal flow analysis on a spreadsheet with the aim of find an anticipated ‘thermal band’ like 150°C-170°C when in operational use with say a nominal  50% ON /50% OFF magnetron [we would need some efficiency numbers and  it might for example show it could only run 10 minutes before temperatures gets to out of hand and the need to turn off for a while to cool back down] and the wax weight required. Then if worth pursing further…

2.Find a suitable wax to use: for example first thoughts are paraffin wax that melts from about 65°C to flashpoint of 200°C density of around 900 kg/m3. [noted magnetron max is 170°C]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraffin_wax

Paraffin wax is an excellent material for storing heat, with a specific heat capacity of 2.14–2.9 J g−1 K−1 (joules per gram kelvin) and a heat of fusion of 200–220 J g−1.[11] This property is exploited in modified drywall for home building material: a certain type of wax (with the right melting point) is infused in the drywall during manufacture so that it melts during the day, absorbing heat, and solidifies again at night, releasing the heat.

3. Consider if any negative effects as the specific density changes slightly when in liquid state  [ i.e. point of balance changing] suspect negligible.

4.Consider the extra beam weight and its possible loading effects [by the way, rfmwguy do up you have an all up weight for the copper frustum and the magnetron together, and its pieces as a matter of interest?  Kind of cool to know what that possible 177 micro newtons of force is pushing! ]

5.Construct a wax tight box around the magnetron and fill it with a suitable volume of heat control wax.

6.Test and evaluate for increased stability or lack thereof.

And best part of all. A more definitive, EMforce reading.

#### Silversheep2011

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5
« Reply #26 on: 10/05/2015 11:04 am »
Forgot to mention a caution

Consider FIRE HAZARD if gets to hot!

#### rfmwguy

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5
« Reply #27 on: 10/05/2015 01:16 pm »
Dave:

I read your paper and was very impressed, very well thought out and put together! Congratulations on a successful experiment. I'm curious though, how do you plan on obtaining 100 times the thrust in your next experiment?

Our paper should be ready to publish in the next week or so. Unfortunately we will not be able to continue this year and will instead focus on graduating on time, the department won't let us skip Senior Spacecraft Design for an individual project. But an Electrical Engineering student has contacted me and expressed interest in doing an EM Drive experiment as his senior project, so perhaps I'll play advisor this year! Maybe that will lead nicely into a Masters or PhD thesis on the topic

Cool!

Well, that the 17.5 millilnewton question...I set the goal arbitrarily to try and get the signature as far above the noise as I think possible from my humble home lab. First will be to clean up the mag signal. Second will be to get it tunable. Third will be to design a feedback system to autotune to best return loss.

This will be a big challenge. Not trying to try mechanical tuning of the frustum as I'm afraid it could induce mechanical variations, so trying it electrically first.

#### SeeShells

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5
« Reply #28 on: 10/05/2015 01:18 pm »
NSF-1701 Paper Update. With thanks to many, I am releasing my paper a day early. I look forward to your commentary.

All the best,
Dave

Dave,

I really like your report - I think this sort of formal documentation is critical to making people fully aware of DIY builders and their contributions to this original research.

I particularly like your contribution to the discussion of Q and the introduction of the QR concept.   I am still going over the implications of the math - I had missed that Yang and NASA had such wildly different methodologies -  I had been focusing too much on the 1-port vs 2-port debate.   However, I will be including a QR calculation in any results I obtain.  I'm going to look at it a little more tonight but I think this approach will be very significant with wideband RF sources like maggies.

Shell - how are you approaching the "Q conundrum"?

Herm

I've tried to stay out of it although I would have to agree with rfmwguy's assessment in how to take and measure Q. Ham's have been doing it that way for decades and I have a lot of respect for what they do what they know and have added to the general field of electronics, let alone the good work they have done.

Meep has calculated a absurdly huge number for Q for the dual waveguide and I know it is just an idealized computer dream calculation, although it has merit in comparison to the real world.

That's when I decided to get my copper laser cut, to build as close of a model to the calculated meep one, just to see what I can get out of it and also to see if even with the cavity stabilizing route I've taken how high a Q I can hope to achieve. In my todo list I have designs to add a small motor to the end of the micrometer situated on the bottom plate to fine tune during operation with a feed back system during a hot run. First I want to get the data on how stable locking the plates together with the quartz rod can be by allowing the frustum to expand past it.

Calculating Q is quite important when considering it will be a number referenced throughout the runs and it's very important that I keep the same standard throughout the testing. That's the important one, others can recalculate how ever they want from the data.

Shell

#### rfmwguy

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5
« Reply #29 on: 10/05/2015 01:20 pm »
NSF-1701 Paper Update. With thanks to many, I am releasing my paper a day early. I look forward to your commentary.

All the best,
Dave

Dave,

I really like your report - I think this sort of formal documentation is critical to making people fully aware of DIY builders and their contributions to this original research.

I particularly like your contribution to the discussion of Q and the introduction of the QR concept.   I am still going over the implications of the math - I had missed that Yang and NASA had such wildly different methodologies -  I had been focusing too much on the 1-port vs 2-port debate.   However, I will be including a QR calculation in any results I obtain.  I'm going to look at it a little more tonight but I think this approach will be very significant with wideband RF sources like maggies.

Shell - how are you approaching the "Q conundrum"?

Herm
Thanks Herm, the Qr concept is akin to a shape factor, i.e. a 30 to 3dB shape factor being 2.5:1 (or whatever) when talking about bandpass filters. I think it has some merit to "force" unification of methodology.

<edit> clarification of shape factor example
Shape factor was exactly where I was going in my late night noodling and then your post caught my eye.    I was trying to come up with a way to relate the concept for those who aren't familiar with filters and their behavior.   I have always found shape factor to be a challenge to explain to someone who hasn't built or used or quantified filters.

However, I really think there is a similarity here (by that I mean two phenomena which present at least a surface or 1st order similarity without a definite or at least defined conceptual link).   Consider the relationship of shape factor to the magnitude of overshoot. And just some way after midnight unconstrained thoughts - isn't overshoot a bit reminiscent of evanescent waves.  I know I know that's just crazy talk.

Herm
I hear ya Herm. I tried to visualize how we could characterize return loss rather than amplitude response and Poof! Shape factor forcing experimenters to declare both 3dB Q measurement points and compare them to one another.

Sooooo, we have invented Qr, or Q ratio, measuring the steepness of the return loss trace on a single port device.

#### SeeShells

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5
« Reply #30 on: 10/05/2015 01:34 pm »
Dave:

I read your paper and was very impressed, very well thought out and put together! Congratulations on a successful experiment. I'm curious though, how do you plan on obtaining 100 times the thrust in your next experiment?

Our paper should be ready to publish in the next week or so. Unfortunately we will not be able to continue this year and will instead focus on graduating on time, the department won't let us skip Senior Spacecraft Design for an individual project. But an Electrical Engineering student has contacted me and expressed interest in doing an EM Drive experiment as his senior project, so perhaps I'll play advisor this year! Maybe that will lead nicely into a Masters or PhD thesis on the topic

Cool!

Well, that the 17.5 millilnewton question...I set the goal arbitrarily to try and get the signature as far above the noise as I think possible from my humble home lab. First will be to clean up the mag signal. Second will be to get it tunable. Third will be to design a feedback system to autotune to best return loss.

This will be a big challenge. Not trying to try mechanical tuning of the frustum as I'm afraid it could induce mechanical variations, so trying it electrically first.

The cavity and end plates are going to try and deform. Even with the low power EW used you can see the difference in heating caused by the modes. When you apply >10x that power the effects are going to increase as well. I'm not sure how well a PLL will be able to offset the thermal deformations you'll see in the copper sheeting. Have you thought about trying to compensate for those hot spots by re-enforcing the end plates with sinks or a heftier plate? Or do you think it's not a issue. Sometimes I think I worry too much and bonded mine onto a ceramic plate.

Shell

#### JonathanD

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5
« Reply #31 on: 10/05/2015 02:08 pm »
Brief layman question.  Is there any way to remove the magnetron from the device entirely and instead direct its output into the chamber using some sort of insulated conduit?  Not sure if that would really help or just complicate things, but curious if it's been considered.

Been reading since Thread 3.  Fascinating stuff, keep up the great work.

#### rfmwguy

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5
« Reply #32 on: 10/05/2015 02:18 pm »
Dave:

I read your paper and was very impressed, very well thought out and put together! Congratulations on a successful experiment. I'm curious though, how do you plan on obtaining 100 times the thrust in your next experiment?

Our paper should be ready to publish in the next week or so. Unfortunately we will not be able to continue this year and will instead focus on graduating on time, the department won't let us skip Senior Spacecraft Design for an individual project. But an Electrical Engineering student has contacted me and expressed interest in doing an EM Drive experiment as his senior project, so perhaps I'll play advisor this year! Maybe that will lead nicely into a Masters or PhD thesis on the topic

Cool!

Well, that the 17.5 millilnewton question...I set the goal arbitrarily to try and get the signature as far above the noise as I think possible from my humble home lab. First will be to clean up the mag signal. Second will be to get it tunable. Third will be to design a feedback system to autotune to best return loss.

This will be a big challenge. Not trying to try mechanical tuning of the frustum as I'm afraid it could induce mechanical variations, so trying it electrically first.

The cavity and end plates are going to try and deform. Even with the low power EW used you can see the difference in heating caused by the modes. When you apply >10x that power the effects are going to increase as well. I'm not sure how well a PLL will be able to offset the thermal deformations you'll see in the copper sheeting. Have you thought about trying to compensate for those hot spots by re-enforcing the end plates with sinks or a heftier plate? Or do you think it's not a issue. Sometimes I think I worry too much and bonded mine onto a ceramic plate.

Shell
I think one of the unintended consequences of using the PCB is that the fiberglass layers between the deposition acks as a bit of an isulator. IOW, I think deformation, like your thoughts on the ceramic, may be minimal.

I'm hoping so, as I really want to avoid mechanical tuning during mag ON.

#### rfmwguy

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5
« Reply #33 on: 10/05/2015 02:19 pm »
Forgot to mention a caution

Consider FIRE HAZARD if gets to hot!
Interesting...ok, now for the big question...interested in building one for me to test?

#### SeeShells

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5
« Reply #34 on: 10/05/2015 02:41 pm »
Brief layman question.  Is there any way to remove the magnetron from the device entirely and instead direct its output into the chamber using some sort of insulated conduit?  Not sure if that would really help or just complicate things, but curious if it's been considered.

Been reading since Thread 3.  Fascinating stuff, keep up the great work.

Kind of. Good thought!

I've got my magnetron away from the frustum. It feeds into a waveguide>coax and down to the frustum into a waveguide>antenna. I'll lose about 3db in each step but that's workable considering I'll keep heat from the magnetron away from the frustum.

I remember there were suggestions on using a feed horn into a matched receiver on the frustum, although I'm not that savvy to want to try it, maybe one of the other (Crazy Eddies) DYIers might give it a shot.

Shell

#### rfmwguy

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5
« Reply #35 on: 10/05/2015 03:49 pm »
« Last Edit: 10/05/2015 04:03 pm by rfmwguy »

#### Space Time Engineer

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5
« Reply #36 on: 10/05/2015 04:14 pm »
While Doc's been busy, it is my privilege to kick off Thread 5 after this topic has had over 3 million views! Onward to 4 million...
RFMWGUY!

I heard a rumor you beamed Dr. Rodel via EMDrive into another dimension.. another dimension - a dimension of sound, a dimension of sight, a dimension of mind. You're moving into a land of both shadow and substance, ...
Getting scary rfmwguy...

Shell

Shell
I followed a link from you a few days back and saw something that may be of interest to this discussion.  Your "beaming in and out of another dimension" comment sparked me to post this

Signals from empty space
Physicists succeed in direct detection of vacuum fluctuations

Date:
October 2, 2015
Source:
University of Konstanz
Summary:
What are the properties of the vacuum, the absolute nothingness? So far, physicists have assumed that it is impossible to directly access the characteristics of the ground state of empty space. Now, a team of physicists has succeeded in doing just that. They demonstrated a first direct observation of the so-called vacuum fluctuations by using short light pulses while employing highly precise optical measurement techniques.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/10/151002082311.htm

RFMWGUY: EXCELLENT WORK!  Another small step to a better understanding of this proposed effect.

Continued success to all.
Dr. Bob

#### rfmwguy

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5
« Reply #37 on: 10/05/2015 04:26 pm »
Brief layman question.  Is there any way to remove the magnetron from the device entirely and instead direct its output into the chamber using some sort of insulated conduit?  Not sure if that would really help or just complicate things, but curious if it's been considered.

Been reading since Thread 3.  Fascinating stuff, keep up the great work.

Kind of. Good thought!

I've got my magnetron away from the frustum. It feeds into a waveguide>coax and down to the frustum into a waveguide>antenna. I'll lose about 3db in each step but that's workable considering I'll keep heat from the magnetron away from the frustum.

I remember there were suggestions on using a feed horn into a matched receiver on the frustum, although I'm not that savvy to want to try it, maybe one of the other (Crazy Eddies) DYIers might give it a shot.

Shell
Shell, not trying to pollute your punchbowl, but even if the mags were 2 feet away via a mesh or solid waveguide they, themselves, will still try to lift...meaning they will transfer this angular force to the waveguides, then the frustum...unless I'm missing something...which is entirely possible, especially when I do yard work

#### rfmwguy

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5
« Reply #38 on: 10/05/2015 04:38 pm »
Mark your calendars. Perhaps the next big event where our favorite topic might appear:

http://www.aiaa-scitech.org/

#### SeeShells

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5
« Reply #39 on: 10/05/2015 04:55 pm »
Brief layman question.  Is there any way to remove the magnetron from the device entirely and instead direct its output into the chamber using some sort of insulated conduit?  Not sure if that would really help or just complicate things, but curious if it's been considered.

Been reading since Thread 3.  Fascinating stuff, keep up the great work.

Kind of. Good thought!

I've got my magnetron away from the frustum. It feeds into a waveguide>coax and down to the frustum into a waveguide>antenna. I'll lose about 3db in each step but that's workable considering I'll keep heat from the magnetron away from the frustum.

I remember there were suggestions on using a feed horn into a matched receiver on the frustum, although I'm not that savvy to want to try it, maybe one of the other (Crazy Eddies) DYIers might give it a shot.

Shell
Shell, not trying to pollute your punchbowl, but even if the mags were 2 feet away via a mesh or solid waveguide they, themselves, will still try to lift...meaning they will transfer this angular force to the waveguides, then the frustum...unless I'm missing something...which is entirely possible, especially when I do yard work
Go ahead and pollute my punch bowl but it better be something tasty.

I think he was referring how to get the heat generated by the magnetron away from the frustum.

If the power supply and the magnetron are lets say 1 meter away and the RF is fed via coax to either antennas or a waveguide the only heat you would be dealing with would be the heat from the actions in the frustum.

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