Author Topic: E/M propellant-less propulsion using delayed information/dielectrics (patent)  (Read 54132 times)

Offline MathewOrman

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I will let you know when I have the prototype working... At the moment I am creating some public records to establish a priority date of an invention...
The device and method is priceless and that is why one must construct a method of marketing with reliable protection of the invention...
The Orman Force and law is just pure science and thus not patentable ...

Offline elektryx tech

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I guess I left the calculation of light from the Biot-Savart equaiton in my thesis. 
page 122 to 125.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/286118593_Determining_if_an_axially_rotated_solenoid_will_induce_a_radial_EMF
Browsed through some of your thesis, looks quite interesting. Also a lot of work, good job.

Offline dustinthewind

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I guess I left the calculation of light from the Biot-Savart equaiton in my thesis. 
page 122 to 125.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/286118593_Determining_if_an_axially_rotated_solenoid_will_induce_a_radial_EMF
Browsed through some of your thesis, looks quite interesting. Also a lot of work, good job.

Thanks, I have to give my professor a lot of the credit.  He put a lot of emphasis on being clear and concise.  I can barely imagine how much time he must have put in reviewing it.  Even though I'm not sure it was really up to his standard, but I guess it was passing.  I felt I learned a lot and gained a respect for him.  I also gained a lot of respect for teachers in general after being one for a short  peroid of time.  I found simple diagrams and images really help and how useful Microsoft paint could be.

Offline MathewOrman

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The method of propelling without momentum split is to convert electric energy to kinetic using full momentum transfer by pushing or pooling against space occupied by xxxx entity of matter... That way momentum and energy i conserved... In reality some energy will be converted to heat due to ohmic loses...

Offline elektryx tech

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OK, quick recap of the thread and what I want to try to figure out.

From antenna theory:
- A dipole antenna resonates at a specific frequency due to a standing wave which has the majority of the electric field at the ends and mostly magnetic field in the center.
- An "end fire" antenna array consists of dipoles  spaced a quarter wavelength apart, with signals 90 degrees out of phase.
- A two element "end fire" antenna will radiate an electromagnetic wave in a single direction due to additive effects one way and subtractive effects in the other direction.

According to Lorentz Force formula:
- I make an assumption here and assume the Lorentz Forces between elements exactly cancel for the standard "end fire" array. (Force due to electric field minus force due to magnetic field equal zero)
- If you were to invert the direction of the current (mostly in the center of the antenna) then all of the forces due to Lorentz Formula acting on the elements point in the same direction. ('dustinthewind' posted a nice picture of a way to do this earlier in the thread.)

Why am I here?:
- I came up with this same idea around 2003-2004ish but never did anything with it, it's always kind of bothered me though. I was starting a build to see if I could figure out what is up with this and then found this thread. Maybe somebody else already knew? Did someone else already build? Could I save myself some time?

Questions that I feel need answering:
- Does this produce an overall thrust? My gut feeling is that the answer is no. (Each individual element in the array does not radiate anything directionally so adding two elements will not radiate anything directionally) But what if it did?
- What kind of radio antenna would this result in? This configuration appears to attempt to radiate the electric field in one direction and the magnetic field in the other. Not sure what would happen here.
- What happens to the force if it does not produce a thrust? My best guess is that the force gets applied from one element to the other in such a way that it would prevent the dipole from resonating in the first place meaning that a standing wave never develops. But I haven't done the math on this, very complicated, easier to just build and test.

What I don't want to know:
- How is momentum conserved? I don't actually think this will exert a force so I think momentum will be conserved just fine. If it does though, I will let the physics people figure out where the momentum goes, and I'll go back to my electronics.

Mark R Jones

Offline meberbs

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With time varying current, the current stops at some time.  At this time it is like a capacitor and there is separated charge.  This appearance of separated charge should travel through space at the speed of light.  I don't believe it to be the same as the electric field generated by the propagating magnetic field as the electric field generated by the propagating magnetic field is perpendicular to both the magnetic field and the direction of current. 
I still don't understand the situation you are describing, since when current stops, this would not mean that their would be a charge separation like in a capacitor. For most wires, there is no separation of charge generated at all when current flows through them, so no stopping point would produce a charge separation. For some antennas, the antenna temporarily acts as a capacitor, and has a charge distribution in it (charge flows in, but has nowhere to go) But this is oscillating as you apply a signal, and when you stop applying a signal, the natural state is for it to be a uniform (zero because it is balanced by the nuclei in the wire) charge distribution. If you kept applying a constant voltage so that it acts as a capacitor, you would want to also consider the balancing charge, which most likely is on the other side of your constant voltage source.

the way I took it was that it meant that light, that we see, is the sum of all of the magnetic field that is to be deposited over the rest of space.  Meaning it's the rest of the magnetic field that hasn't yet been deposited over space.  so the universe is keeping track of all of the magnetic fields in the universe using light. 

Regarding the static electric field, I am pondering if it might be possible to make a phased array where are the current is accelerated perpendicular to the current of a regular phased array.  There should be radiation in the direction of the accelerated charge but this would point toward the radiation source.  one problem is I think this type of field would drop off with distance squared unlike light. 

With distance cubed as a dipole.
Not sure if there would be some kind of sum effect depositing over space.
Regarding my calculation of light from the biot savart equation, I'll have to find my old PDF and post it.

I guess I left the calculation of light from the Biot-Savart equaiton in my thesis. 
page 122 to 125.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/286118593_Determining_if_an_axially_rotated_solenoid_will_induce_a_radial_EMF
It makes sense to me, though I didn't go through it too closely.

One thing that is helpful if you haven't heard of it before is Jefimenko's equations. The standard formulation of Maxwell's equations is useful to show some properties of electromagnetic fields, such as the fact that a changing electric field cannot exist without there also being a changing magnetic field and vice versa. Jefimenko's general solution to Maxwell's equations shows that all fields originate from actual charges. Notably, the terms in the equations are all related to the "retarded position" of the charge or current, which shows that every relevant bit of information is delayed by the speed of light. You can also see which terms are related to the velocity or the acceleration of charges.

Electric field is based on 3 terms: charge distribution, rate of change of charge distribution and rate of change of current density (which is related to and has the units of acceleration of charge density.)
Magnetic field has just 2 terms: Current density, and rate of change of current density.

Based on this, while it is true that when current density changes, an electromagnetic wave propagates by, and as it passes, the background magnetic field changes to match the new current density, these are separate terms in the equation. Also, it is interesting to note that for the electric field the rate of change of charge term is based on charge density, whereas the equivalent term for magnetic field is the current density term. There can be a current density present even when charge density is constantly zero (such as in typical current flow through a wire.)

Offline meberbs

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According to Lorentz Force formula:
- I make an assumption here and assume the Lorentz Forces between elements exactly cancel for the standard "end fire" array. (Force due to electric field minus force due to magnetic field equal zero)
- If you were to invert the direction of the current (mostly in the center of the antenna) then all of the forces due to Lorentz Formula acting on the elements point in the same direction. ('dustinthewind' posted a nice picture of a way to do this earlier in the thread.)
Your first assumption is wrong. Forces between charges do NOT obey the equal and opposite force law. This is because electromagnetic radiation carries momentum away and you need to account for that for the force balance to close. This comes up in relatively simple examples (consider 2 identical charges both moving with the same speed towards the origin of a coordinate system, one moving along the x axis, one moving along the y axis)

Why am I here?:
- I came up with this same idea around 2003-2004ish but never did anything with it, it's always kind of bothered me though. I was starting a build to see if I could figure out what is up with this and then found this thread. Maybe somebody else already knew? Did someone else already build? Could I save myself some time?
If you look enough, there must be at least half a dozen threads on this site where someone has come up with some variant of this idea, most have been locked for various reasons, and some it took a while for the OP to explain enough about their idea to make it clear that it was just another variant of a small phased array.

Questions that I feel need answering:
- Does this produce an overall thrust? My gut feeling is that the answer is no. (Each individual element in the array does not radiate anything directionally so adding two elements will not radiate anything directionally) But what if it did?
Probably, this is a 2 element phased array, and with proper phasing, it should produce a directional pattern. Phased arrays are used all over the place. Radars are one common use, the new satellite internet constellations use phased array for electronic beam steering, and even some home wi-fi routers use a couple of antennas to increase signal strength towards specific devices. The existence of momentum carried by radiation is well known, tested, and understood, but generally useless and difficult to measure due to power to force ratio. When this is discussed for propulsion purposes, lasers are typically considered, because RF phased arrays are not nearly as directional as a laser.

- What kind of radio antenna would this result in? This configuration appears to attempt to radiate the electric field in one direction and the magnetic field in the other. Not sure what would happen here.
No, it doesn't, radiation simply doesn't work that way simply based on the dE/dt and dB/dt terms in Maxwell's equations. I am not sure how you are getting to this conclusion.

- What happens to the force if it does not produce a thrust? My best guess is that the force gets applied from one element to the other in such a way that it would prevent the dipole from resonating in the first place meaning that a standing wave never develops. But I haven't done the math on this, very complicated, easier to just build and test.
N/A if configured to radiate in a direction, then there is a matching net force, if configured to produce a symmetric radiation pattern, then the net force is zero. The problem with skipping the math is that you almost certainly will not be able to measure force in the asymmetric radiation case, because the force is too tiny. You can measure the field patterns though.

Here is an online set of lecture notes on antennas, 2 chapters are on arrays, and the 2nd one gets into more detail on arrays that include phase offsets between elements:
http://www.waves.utoronto.ca/prof/svhum/ece422/notes/
There are also commercial 2-element devices with technical notes and spec sheets:
https://static.dxengineering.com/global/images/instructions/dxe-dva-160.pdf

What I don't want to know:
- How is momentum conserved? I don't actually think this will exert a force so I think momentum will be conserved just fine. If it does though, I will let the physics people figure out where the momentum goes, and I'll go back to my electronics.
This is really simple though, and helpful for understanding the answers to the rest of your questions. The net electromagnetic forces on the antenna array (due to the fields it produces) are equal and opposite to the rate at which the fields carry away momentum in the form of photons. (And if it doesn't help you, it may help others who pass by this thread.)

Offline elektryx tech

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meberbs:
My last post was more just a synopsis of the thread in general. Good responses.

My conclusions after all this discussion are:
- Any configuration of antennas will produce no net force due to electromagnetic radiation. (Unless you put a big parabolic dish behind it.)
- Lorentz forces between elements (near field factors) will act on the circuit itself and not add to any radiation.

I'll still go through some of the math for this at a later time, and will probably still build something, but I won't put a huge amount of effort into it.

Thanks for helping me get a better grasp of the physics.

Offline dustinthewind

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With time varying current, the current stops at some time.  At this time it is like a capacitor and there is separated charge.  This appearance of separated charge should travel through space at the speed of light.  I don't believe it to be the same as the electric field generated by the propagating magnetic field as the electric field generated by the propagating magnetic field is perpendicular to both the magnetic field and the direction of current. 

I still don't understand the situation you are describing, since when current stops, this would not mean that their would be a charge separation like in a capacitor. For most wires, there is no separation of charge generated at all when current flows through them, so no stopping point would produce a charge separation. For some antennas, the antenna temporarily acts as a capacitor, and has a charge distribution in it (charge flows in, but has nowhere to go) But this is oscillating as you apply a signal, and when you stop applying a signal, the natural state is for it to be a uniform (zero because it is balanced by the nuclei in the wire) charge distribution. If you kept applying a constant voltage so that it acts as a capacitor, you would want to also consider the balancing charge, which most likely is on the other side of your constant voltage source.

For must low frequencies there isn't charge separation but at higher frequencies on the order of microwaves the current has a wavelength in which charge is flowing back and forth between the nodes.  When current stops flowing at the nodes, it is frozen in time for a second as separated charge, then flows back.  Resonance maintains this behavior. 

So I look at the static electric field as separate from the magnetic field in that the electric field describes the non-relativistic nature of the electric field, while the magnetic field describes the relativistic nature of the electric field.  The two combined are the fully relativistic electric field. 

Physicists found early on it was helpful to separate the fully relativistic electric field into the electric and magnetic field.  By accounting for the electric and magnetic field they account for the fully relativistic electric field which can transform based on relativity. 

See the image on this paper which shows light emanating from a charge but perpendicular to the direction the charge is accelerated.  Under "Radiation as a Consequence of the Cosmic Speed Limit" http://physics.weber.edu/schroeder/mrr/mrrhandout.pdf
It is this radiation pattern that Purcell derives in his book "Electricity and magnetism" for an accelerated charge that alerted me that the Biot-Savart equation also describes such a radiation pattern from a single charge. 

If light is described by the Biot-Savart equation which is the (magnetic field) of a single charge then this separates light from its (electric field).  The charges static or non-relativistic electric field can also vary in time as charge is separated in time in a wire. 

This electric field is very different from light (magnetic) because the electric field points toward the charge while lights electric field points in the direction of the charges acceleration.  This makes its electric field perpendicular to that of light so they are different beasts. 

What is interesting is that in a phased array the propulsion of the magnetic field is opposite of the propulsion of the time retarded electric field.  Yet we still get photon propulsion out of this. 

If the magnetic field is light then I guess what I am really interested in making an electric field array which should emit a strange form of electric field in the direction in which no light can emanate.  In the direction in which charges are accelerated.  See image below of electric field phased array.  Not a light emission phased array.

the way I took it was that it meant that light, that we see, is the sum of all of the magnetic field that is to be deposited over the rest of space.  Meaning it's the rest of the magnetic field that hasn't yet been deposited over space.  so the universe is keeping track of all of the magnetic fields in the universe using light. 

Regarding the static electric field, I am pondering if it might be possible to make a phased array where are the current is accelerated perpendicular to the current of a regular phased array.  There should be radiation in the direction of the accelerated charge but this would point toward the radiation source.  one problem is I think this type of field would drop off with distance squared unlike light. 

With distance cubed as a dipole.
Not sure if there would be some kind of sum effect depositing over space.
Regarding my calculation of light from the biot savart equation, I'll have to find my old PDF and post it.

I guess I left the calculation of light from the Biot-Savart equaiton in my thesis. 
page 122 to 125.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/286118593_Determining_if_an_axially_rotated_solenoid_will_induce_a_radial_EMF
It makes sense to me, though I didn't go through it too closely.

One thing that is helpful if you haven't heard of it before is Jefimenko's equations. The standard formulation of Maxwell's equations is useful to show some properties of electromagnetic fields, such as the fact that a changing electric field cannot exist without there also being a changing magnetic field and vice versa. Jefimenko's general solution to Maxwell's equations shows that all fields originate from actual charges. Notably, the terms in the equations are all related to the "retarded position" of the charge or current, which shows that every relevant bit of information is delayed by the speed of light. You can also see which terms are related to the velocity or the acceleration of charges.

Electric field is based on 3 terms: charge distribution, rate of change of charge distribution and rate of change of current density (which is related to and has the units of acceleration of charge density.)
Magnetic field has just 2 terms: Current density, and rate of change of current density.

Based on this, while it is true that when current density changes, an electromagnetic wave propagates by, and as it passes, the background magnetic field changes to match the new current density, these are separate terms in the equation. Also, it is interesting to note that for the electric field the rate of change of charge term is based on charge density, whereas the equivalent term for magnetic field is the current density term. There can be a current density present even when charge density is constantly zero (such as in typical current flow through a wire.)
« Last Edit: 03/04/2019 01:42 am by dustinthewind »

Offline elektryx tech

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One thing that is helpful if you haven't heard of it before is Jefimenko's equations. The standard formulation of Maxwell's equations is useful to show some properties of electromagnetic fields, such as the fact that a changing electric field cannot exist without there also being a changing magnetic field and vice versa. Jefimenko's general solution to Maxwell's equations shows that all fields originate from actual charges. Notably, the terms in the equations are all related to the "retarded position" of the charge or current, which shows that every relevant bit of information is delayed by the speed of light. You can also see which terms are related to the velocity or the acceleration of charges.

Electric field is based on 3 terms: charge distribution, rate of change of charge distribution and rate of change of current density (which is related to and has the units of acceleration of charge density.)
Magnetic field has just 2 terms: Current density, and rate of change of current density.

Based on this, while it is true that when current density changes, an electromagnetic wave propagates by, and as it passes, the background magnetic field changes to match the new current density, these are separate terms in the equation. Also, it is interesting to note that for the electric field the rate of change of charge term is based on charge density, whereas the equivalent term for magnetic field is the current density term. There can be a current density present even when charge density is constantly zero (such as in typical current flow through a wire.)

Aha, these are the equations (Jefimenko's equations) I wanted to take a closer look at. I was reading through something that used these to describe the near and far fields of a radiating antenna, but then they just ignored the near field terms.

Offline meberbs

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For must low frequencies there isn't charge separation but at higher frequencies on the order of microwaves the current has a wavelength in which charge is flowing back and forth between the nodes.  When current stops flowing at the nodes, it is frozen in time for a second as separated charge, then flows back.  Resonance maintains this behavior. 
I don't know what low frequencies you are talking about, but microwaves are fairly low frequency as far as EM radiation goes. In general for anything in the radio wave portion of the EM spectrum you can just scale your antenna with the wavelength of what you are working with.

If I am understanding you right, you are just referring to the instant when the current equals 0. At this same instant is when the charge density term in Jefimenko's equations is the maximum, and also when the dJ/dt rate of change of current density term is the greatest. This is the term that results in electromagnetic radiation.

See the image on this paper which shows light emanating from a charge but perpendicular to the direction the charge is accelerated.  Under "Radiation as a Consequence of the Cosmic Speed Limit" http://physics.weber.edu/schroeder/mrr/mrrhandout.pdf
It is this radiation pattern that Purcell derives in his book "Electricity and magnetism" for an accelerated charge that alerted me that the Biot-Savart equation also describes such a radiation pattern from a single charge. 
What you are referring to seems to be the result of doing the vector sum of normal radially outward portion of the field of the charge, plus the effect of the radiation term. (sum of the first and third terms of Jefimenko's E-field equation. ) The portions of the electric field that are perpendicular to the direction of acceleration are very weak. In the picture you can tell this because the field lines are far apart (compared to the regions where the field lines nearly overlap, where most of the radiated energy goes.)

If light is described by the Biot-Savart equation which is the (magnetic field) of a single charge then this separates light from its (electric field).  The charges static or non-relativistic electric field can also vary in time as charge is separated in time in a wire. 
Biot-Savart only applies for steady currents. In those cases it is just the first term of the magnetic field in Jefimenko's equations, without the need to worry about retarded time and position. The second term is where the interesting actual radiation comes from.

This electric field is very different from light (magnetic) because the electric field points toward the charge while lights electric field points in the direction of the charges acceleration.  This makes its electric field perpendicular to that of light so they are different beasts. 
The electric field of EM radiation (light) is perpendicular to the direction of propagation of the wave. The field from the charge itself points towards the charge, which is essentially perpendicular to the direction of propagation of the wave, so it seems you are just talking about the field of the charge. However, in the case of a temporary charge distribution in an antenna, far from the antenna, the field drops off rapidly. In the near field, it is just part of the complex interactions between different elements of an array that results in the array as a whole feeling a reaction force in the opposite direction from the net emitted radiation. (Effectively it communicates the existence of the other elements in the array and the signals they transmitted, so each element feels the effective force based o the direction its energy actually got transmitted in)

What is interesting is that in a phased array the propulsion of the magnetic field is opposite of the propulsion of the time retarded electric field.  Yet we still get photon propulsion out of this. 
I still don't see how you can be coming to this conclusion. The actual fields that carry any significant distance from an antenna array of any design are the dJ/dt terms in Jefimenko's equation. The dq/dt term looks like it would result in 1/R as well, but that goes away at far distances, because the charge distribution is that of a dipole.

If the magnetic field is light then I guess what I am really interested in making an electric field array which should emit a strange form of electric field in the direction in which no light can emanate.  In the direction in which charges are accelerated.  See image below of electric field phased array.  Not a light emission phased array.
I don't understand how to read that diagram, I don't know what the zig zag lines are supposed to be. Are you proposing an actual wire in the shape of a zig-zag? Is it supposed to be a coil? Something entirely different? In either case, more dimensions are needed than the distance from one zig-zag element to the other.

Offline dustinthewind

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For must low frequencies there isn't charge separation but at higher frequencies on the order of microwaves the current has a wavelength in which charge is flowing back and forth between the nodes.  When current stops flowing at the nodes, it is frozen in time for a second as separated charge, then flows back.  Resonance maintains this behavior. 
I don't know what low frequencies you are talking about, but microwaves are fairly low frequency as far as EM radiation goes. In general for anything in the radio wave portion of the EM spectrum you can just scale your antenna with the wavelength of what you are working with.

If I am understanding you right, you are just referring to the instant when the current equals 0. At this same instant is when the charge density term in Jefimenko's equations is the maximum, and also when the dJ/dt rate of change of current density term is the greatest. This is the term that results in electromagnetic radiation.

See the image on this paper which shows light emanating from a charge but perpendicular to the direction the charge is accelerated.  Under "Radiation as a Consequence of the Cosmic Speed Limit" http://physics.weber.edu/schroeder/mrr/mrrhandout.pdf
It is this radiation pattern that Purcell derives in his book "Electricity and magnetism" for an accelerated charge that alerted me that the Biot-Savart equation also describes such a radiation pattern from a single charge. 
What you are referring to seems to be the result of doing the vector sum of normal radially outward portion of the field of the charge, plus the effect of the radiation term. (sum of the first and third terms of Jefimenko's E-field equation. ) The portions of the electric field that are perpendicular to the direction of acceleration are very weak. In the picture you can tell this because the field lines are far apart (compared to the regions where the field lines nearly overlap, where most of the radiated energy goes.)
I think you are right here.  The density of the separated charge should normally be small.  One would need to separate more charge to get the desired charge density to intensify the charge separation.  Possibly by increasing the capacitance in the wire.  I am thinking a series of wires that have capacitors between them but then this causes the electric field to be contained between them.  I still need to look at Jefimenko's equations but I think from what I have read here he has the near electric field in his.  I am guessing he should also have a sum of that near electric field (not light) that is summed from infinity that would drop its electric field at 1/r but your right the low charge density and its charge distribution is a dipole so in the end I think it does drop rapidly.  Still a magnetic field is also a dipole and yet its radiation electric field goes as 1/r so I wonder.  I wonder if it could at all be related to quadra-pole radiation - Ill have to think about it. 
Quote

If light is described by the Biot-Savart equation which is the (magnetic field) of a single charge then this separates light from its (electric field).  The charges static or non-relativistic electric field can also vary in time as charge is separated in time in a wire. 
Biot-Savart only applies for steady currents. In those cases it is just the first term of the magnetic field in Jefimenko's equations, without the need to worry about retarded time and position. The second term is where the interesting actual radiation comes from.
Well, what I mean is the sum from infinity of the Biot-Savart equation that gives light.  When the magnetic field changes. 
Quote

This electric field is very different from light (magnetic) because the electric field points toward the charge while lights electric field points in the direction of the charges acceleration.  This makes its electric field perpendicular to that of light so they are different beasts. 
The electric field of EM radiation (light) is perpendicular to the direction of propagation of the wave. The field from the charge itself points towards the charge, which is essentially perpendicular to the direction of propagation of the wave, so it seems you are just talking about the field of the charge. However, in the case of a temporary charge distribution in an antenna, far from the antenna, the field drops off rapidly. In the near field, it is just part of the complex interactions between different elements of an array that results in the array as a whole feeling a reaction force in the opposite direction from the net emitted radiation. (Effectively it communicates the existence of the other elements in the array and the signals they transmitted, so each element feels the effective force based o the direction its energy actually got transmitted in)

What is interesting is that in a phased array the propulsion of the magnetic field is opposite of the propulsion of the time retarded electric field.  Yet we still get photon propulsion out of this. 
I still don't see how you can be coming to this conclusion. The actual fields that carry any significant distance from an antenna array of any design are the dJ/dt terms in Jefimenko's equation. The dq/dt term looks like it would result in 1/R as well, but that goes away at far distances, because the charge distribution is that of a dipole.
I see where your coming from.  Your asking if its even significant.  I honestly don't know if it can be made significant now that I think about it - the density of dq/dt.  Good question.  I question if the dq/dt term actually drops away as a dipole or not because the magnetic field as a current loop is also a dipole and yet its light field doesn't drop as a dipole. If the change in the dipole magnetic field drops as 1/r when summing the disturbance from infinity then I wonder if the dq/dt term may also possibly drop as 1/r.  Not sure that makes a lot of sense but I wonder. 

There is also the fact that the magnetic field of a single charge drops off at 1/r^2 so its change as a sum from infinity drops as 1/r but for charge separation dq/dt in a wire charge always comes in pairs so it might not be possible to consider the field as 1/r^2 even though were considering dq/dt radiation of a single charge at near field. 
Quote


If the magnetic field is light then I guess what I am really interested in making an electric field array which should emit a strange form of electric field in the direction in which no light can emanate.  In the direction in which charges are accelerated.  See image below of electric field phased array.  Not a light emission phased array.
I don't understand how to read that diagram, I don't know what the zig zag lines are supposed to be. Are you proposing an actual wire in the shape of a zig-zag? Is it supposed to be a coil? Something entirely different? In either case, more dimensions are needed than the distance from one zig-zag element to the other.
Sorry, the diagram is of wires where the wavelength of radiation is of the order of the wires length.  There is a dq/dt term indicated on the wires.  To be honest I think the frequency term or some capacitance needs to be there to enhance how much charge is actually separated.  By introducing capacitors I wonder if there might eventually be a quadra-pole term. 

sorry for the mess of text, typed it this morning in a hurry
« Last Edit: 03/05/2019 03:51 am by dustinthewind »

Offline elektryx tech

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Sorry, the diagram is of wires where the wavelength of radiation is of the order of the wires length.  There is a dq/dt term indicated on the wires.  To be honest I think the frequency term or some capacitance needs to be there to enhance how much charge is actually separated.  By introducing capacitors I wonder if there might eventually be a quadra-pole term.
I also thought that capacitor plates at the endpoints of the wire would be a good idea. Already included these in my build. I think that these would enhance charge separation and maybe add a bit more directionality to the electric wave. More importantly it will make the driver circuitry easier to build since the capacitor-inductor-capacitor model will be a naturally tuned circuit.

Offline dustinthewind

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Sorry, the diagram is of wires where the wavelength of radiation is of the order of the wires length.  There is a dq/dt term indicated on the wires.  To be honest I think the frequency term or some capacitance needs to be there to enhance how much charge is actually separated.  By introducing capacitors I wonder if there might eventually be a quadra-pole term.
I also thought that capacitor plates at the endpoints of the wire would be a good idea. Already included these in my build. I think that these would enhance charge separation and maybe add a bit more directionality to the electric wave. More importantly it will make the driver circuitry easier to build since the capacitor-inductor-capacitor model will be a naturally tuned circuit.

I would be curious to see a picture if you get to a point where you think it is photogenic.  Just out of curiosity and that a picture has a lot to say about what to possibly expect. 

Offline elektryx tech

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Sorry, the diagram is of wires where the wavelength of radiation is of the order of the wires length.  There is a dq/dt term indicated on the wires.  To be honest I think the frequency term or some capacitance needs to be there to enhance how much charge is actually separated.  By introducing capacitors I wonder if there might eventually be a quadra-pole term.
I also thought that capacitor plates at the endpoints of the wire would be a good idea. Already included these in my build. I think that these would enhance charge separation and maybe add a bit more directionality to the electric wave. More importantly it will make the driver circuitry easier to build since the capacitor-inductor-capacitor model will be a naturally tuned circuit.

I would be curious to see a picture if you get to a point where you think it is photogenic.  Just out of curiosity and that a picture has a lot to say about what to possibly expect.
Here is my test build so far, no electronics yet. Wanted something easy to reconfigure as there will likely be a bunch of changes when I start adding oscillator circuits, changing the length between elements etc. But this will give you an idea where I'm going with it.

Offline dustinthewind

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I haven't been able to draw a diagram yet but this relates to my intuition that a pure electric (non-magnetic) phased array might be made to be quadrapole. 

I was trying to think of a phased array that only projects dq/dt in the direction of propulsion so that no one could say it was magnetic or normal radiation propulsion.  If it works the radiation would be quite strange as the electric field would point toward or away from the array. 

With normal capacitor plates the charge has to fill the plate and if from the center you still get magnetic terms with current. 

I came up with the idea of four strips side by side connected and fed by a torroid.  The four strips aren't really time delayed with respect to the frequency so they are much closer than 1/4 lambda.  Between this set of strips there is a dielectric that makes the next set of 4 strips spaced at a distance of 1/4 lambda. 

The strips spaced by the dielectric act as a phased array while the 4 strips with out dielectric act as capacitor inductor systems. 

The magnetic radiation should be perpendicular to the direction of propulsion while the dq/dt radiation should be in the direction of propulsion.  ill draw a diagram later.  Gota run.

Edited: image attached below

You don't have to do this.  It's just something I was pondering.  Thought you might find it interesting. 

The flat plates closer than 1/4 lambda were used to increase the separation of electric charge.  The circuit was made to resonate to increase the amount of energy stored in the circuit for charge separation.  The ends of the plates are made to be attractive/repulsive to the the ends of the plates on the other side of the dielectric (so the current in the top circuit is 90 degrees out of phase with the current in the bottom circuit).  I was thinking MHz frequencies if possible and the dielectric shortens the wavelength to microwave wavelengths.
« Last Edit: 03/08/2019 04:41 am by dustinthewind »

Offline dustinthewind

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Something else to watch out for.  A phased array's antenna components naturally all want to reflect radiation.  If they do this then it won't be a phased array.  Positive work has to be done on the antennas in the direction you want the radiation to transmit.  The antennas that cancel the radiation actually need to do negative work.
That is the electrons in them need to move with the incoming electric field but encounter resistance in the wire. 

I think the trick is making sure that the current is actually 90 degrees out of phase between the elements, instead of operation in their reflective mode.  That the current is actually behaving as it should might require monitoring of current.  To accomplish this there needs to be adjustment of voltages on each element. 

It's similar in the electric phased array above.  If a plate sees the plate below as repulsive it has the same charge.  This reduces the plates effective ability to hold charge.  More voltage is required to store the same amount of charge on that plate.  if the plate below sees the other plate above as attractive it has enhanced ability to store charge.  Less voltage needs to be applied to store the same amount of charge.  So there's this reoccurring theme of positive work on one side, negative work on the other. 
« Last Edit: 03/10/2019 01:12 pm by dustinthewind »

Offline elektryx tech

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Something else to watch out for.  A phased array's antenna components naturally all want to reflect radiation.  If they do this then it won't be a phased array.  Positive work has to be done on the antennas in the direction you want the radiation to transmit.  The antennas that cancel the radiation actually need to do negative work.
That is the electrons in them need to move with the incoming electric field but encounter resistance in the wire. 

I think the trick is making sure that the current is actually 90 degrees out of phase between the elements, instead of operation in their reflective mode.  That the current is actually behaving as it should might require monitoring of current.  To accomplish this there needs to be adjustment of voltages on each element. 

It's similar in the electric phased array above.  If a plate sees the plate below as repulsive it has the same charge.  This reduces the plates effective ability to hold charge.  More voltage is required to store the same amount of charge on that plate.  if the plate below sees the other plate above as attractive it has enhanced ability to store charge.  Less voltage needs to be applied to store the same amount of charge.  So there's this reoccurring theme of positive work on one side, negative work on the other.
Yes, I was looking at this the other day and came to the same conclusions. Both elements will have to be driven and out of phase by 90 degrees. But I came to the same conclusion that one element would reinforce the signal and the other element would resist the signal.

Currently I'm trying to get a low voltage oscillator working on a single element, just to see what kind of circuit will work the best. A circuit between elements to keep a 90 degree phase shift looks simple enough. I will have a bit of trouble confirming the 90 degree phase shift as my oscilloscope is not working quite right at the moment. (I'm in the process of repairing that)

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