I guess I left the calculation of light from the Biot-Savart equaiton in my thesis. page 122 to 125.https://www.researchgate.net/publication/286118593_Determining_if_an_axially_rotated_solenoid_will_induce_a_radial_EMF

Quote from: dustinthewind on 02/25/2019 09:11 pmI guess I left the calculation of light from the Biot-Savart equaiton in my thesis. page 122 to 125.https://www.researchgate.net/publication/286118593_Determining_if_an_axially_rotated_solenoid_will_induce_a_radial_EMFBrowsed through some of your thesis, looks quite interesting. Also a lot of work, good job.

With time varying current, the current stops at some time. At this time it is like a capacitor and there is separated charge. This appearance of separated charge should travel through space at the speed of light. I don't believe it to be the same as the electric field generated by the propagating magnetic field as the electric field generated by the propagating magnetic field is perpendicular to both the magnetic field and the direction of current.

the way I took it was that it meant that light, that we see, is the sum of all of the magnetic field that is to be deposited over the rest of space. Meaning it's the rest of the magnetic field that hasn't yet been deposited over space. so the universe is keeping track of all of the magnetic fields in the universe using light. Regarding the static electric field, I am pondering if it might be possible to make a phased array where are the current is accelerated perpendicular to the current of a regular phased array. There should be radiation in the direction of the accelerated charge but this would point toward the radiation source. one problem is I think this type of field would drop off with distance squared unlike light. With distance cubed as a dipole.Not sure if there would be some kind of sum effect depositing over space.

Quote from: dustinthewind on 02/25/2019 03:30 pmRegarding my calculation of light from the biot savart equation, I'll have to find my old PDF and post it. I guess I left the calculation of light from the Biot-Savart equaiton in my thesis. page 122 to 125.https://www.researchgate.net/publication/286118593_Determining_if_an_axially_rotated_solenoid_will_induce_a_radial_EMF

Regarding my calculation of light from the biot savart equation, I'll have to find my old PDF and post it.

According to Lorentz Force formula:- I make an assumption here and assume the Lorentz Forces between elements exactly cancel for the standard "end fire" array. (Force due to electric field minus force due to magnetic field equal zero)- If you were to invert the direction of the current (mostly in the center of the antenna) then all of the forces due to Lorentz Formula acting on the elements point in the same direction. ('dustinthewind' posted a nice picture of a way to do this earlier in the thread.)

Why am I here?:- I came up with this same idea around 2003-2004ish but never did anything with it, it's always kind of bothered me though. I was starting a build to see if I could figure out what is up with this and then found this thread. Maybe somebody else already knew? Did someone else already build? Could I save myself some time?

Questions that I feel need answering:- Does this produce an overall thrust? My gut feeling is that the answer is no. (Each individual element in the array does not radiate anything directionally so adding two elements will not radiate anything directionally) But what if it did?

- What kind of radio antenna would this result in? This configuration appears to attempt to radiate the electric field in one direction and the magnetic field in the other. Not sure what would happen here.

- What happens to the force if it does not produce a thrust? My best guess is that the force gets applied from one element to the other in such a way that it would prevent the dipole from resonating in the first place meaning that a standing wave never develops. But I haven't done the math on this, very complicated, easier to just build and test.

What I don't want to know:- How is momentum conserved? I don't actually think this will exert a force so I think momentum will be conserved just fine. If it does though, I will let the physics people figure out where the momentum goes, and I'll go back to my electronics.

Quote from: dustinthewind on 02/25/2019 03:30 pmWith time varying current, the current stops at some time. At this time it is like a capacitor and there is separated charge. This appearance of separated charge should travel through space at the speed of light. I don't believe it to be the same as the electric field generated by the propagating magnetic field as the electric field generated by the propagating magnetic field is perpendicular to both the magnetic field and the direction of current. I still don't understand the situation you are describing, since when current stops, this would not mean that their would be a charge separation like in a capacitor. For most wires, there is no separation of charge generated at all when current flows through them, so no stopping point would produce a charge separation. For some antennas, the antenna temporarily acts as a capacitor, and has a charge distribution in it (charge flows in, but has nowhere to go) But this is oscillating as you apply a signal, and when you stop applying a signal, the natural state is for it to be a uniform (zero because it is balanced by the nuclei in the wire) charge distribution. If you kept applying a constant voltage so that it acts as a capacitor, you would want to also consider the balancing charge, which most likely is on the other side of your constant voltage source.

Quote from: dustinthewind on 02/25/2019 04:47 pmthe way I took it was that it meant that light, that we see, is the sum of all of the magnetic field that is to be deposited over the rest of space. Meaning it's the rest of the magnetic field that hasn't yet been deposited over space. so the universe is keeping track of all of the magnetic fields in the universe using light. Regarding the static electric field, I am pondering if it might be possible to make a phased array where are the current is accelerated perpendicular to the current of a regular phased array. There should be radiation in the direction of the accelerated charge but this would point toward the radiation source. one problem is I think this type of field would drop off with distance squared unlike light. With distance cubed as a dipole.Not sure if there would be some kind of sum effect depositing over space.Quote from: dustinthewind on 02/25/2019 09:11 pmQuote from: dustinthewind on 02/25/2019 03:30 pmRegarding my calculation of light from the biot savart equation, I'll have to find my old PDF and post it. I guess I left the calculation of light from the Biot-Savart equaiton in my thesis. page 122 to 125.https://www.researchgate.net/publication/286118593_Determining_if_an_axially_rotated_solenoid_will_induce_a_radial_EMFIt makes sense to me, though I didn't go through it too closely.One thing that is helpful if you haven't heard of it before is Jefimenko's equations. The standard formulation of Maxwell's equations is useful to show some properties of electromagnetic fields, such as the fact that a changing electric field cannot exist without there also being a changing magnetic field and vice versa. Jefimenko's general solution to Maxwell's equations shows that all fields originate from actual charges. Notably, the terms in the equations are all related to the "retarded position" of the charge or current, which shows that every relevant bit of information is delayed by the speed of light. You can also see which terms are related to the velocity or the acceleration of charges. Electric field is based on 3 terms: charge distribution, rate of change of charge distribution and rate of change of current density (which is related to and has the units of acceleration of charge density.)Magnetic field has just 2 terms: Current density, and rate of change of current density.Based on this, while it is true that when current density changes, an electromagnetic wave propagates by, and as it passes, the background magnetic field changes to match the new current density, these are separate terms in the equation. Also, it is interesting to note that for the electric field the rate of change of charge term is based on charge density, whereas the equivalent term for magnetic field is the current density term. There can be a current density present even when charge density is constantly zero (such as in typical current flow through a wire.)

One thing that is helpful if you haven't heard of it before is Jefimenko's equations. The standard formulation of Maxwell's equations is useful to show some properties of electromagnetic fields, such as the fact that a changing electric field cannot exist without there also being a changing magnetic field and vice versa. Jefimenko's general solution to Maxwell's equations shows that all fields originate from actual charges. Notably, the terms in the equations are all related to the "retarded position" of the charge or current, which shows that every relevant bit of information is delayed by the speed of light. You can also see which terms are related to the velocity or the acceleration of charges. Electric field is based on 3 terms: charge distribution, rate of change of charge distribution and rate of change of current density (which is related to and has the units of acceleration of charge density.)Magnetic field has just 2 terms: Current density, and rate of change of current density.Based on this, while it is true that when current density changes, an electromagnetic wave propagates by, and as it passes, the background magnetic field changes to match the new current density, these are separate terms in the equation. Also, it is interesting to note that for the electric field the rate of change of charge term is based on charge density, whereas the equivalent term for magnetic field is the current density term. There can be a current density present even when charge density is constantly zero (such as in typical current flow through a wire.)

For must low frequencies there isn't charge separation but at higher frequencies on the order of microwaves the current has a wavelength in which charge is flowing back and forth between the nodes. When current stops flowing at the nodes, it is frozen in time for a second as separated charge, then flows back. Resonance maintains this behavior.

See the image on this paper which shows light emanating from a charge but perpendicular to the direction the charge is accelerated. Under "Radiation as a Consequence of the Cosmic Speed Limit" http://physics.weber.edu/schroeder/mrr/mrrhandout.pdfIt is this radiation pattern that Purcell derives in his book "Electricity and magnetism" for an accelerated charge that alerted me that the Biot-Savart equation also describes such a radiation pattern from a single charge.

If light is described by the Biot-Savart equation which is the (magnetic field) of a single charge then this separates light from its (electric field). The charges static or non-relativistic electric field can also vary in time as charge is separated in time in a wire.

This electric field is very different from light (magnetic) because the electric field points toward the charge while lights electric field points in the direction of the charges acceleration. This makes its electric field perpendicular to that of light so they are different beasts.

What is interesting is that in a phased array the propulsion of the magnetic field is opposite of the propulsion of the time retarded electric field. Yet we still get photon propulsion out of this.

If the magnetic field is light then I guess what I am really interested in making an electric field array which should emit a strange form of electric field in the direction in which no light can emanate. In the direction in which charges are accelerated. See image below of electric field phased array. Not a light emission phased array.

Quote from: dustinthewind on 03/04/2019 01:35 amFor must low frequencies there isn't charge separation but at higher frequencies on the order of microwaves the current has a wavelength in which charge is flowing back and forth between the nodes. When current stops flowing at the nodes, it is frozen in time for a second as separated charge, then flows back. Resonance maintains this behavior. I don't know what low frequencies you are talking about, but microwaves are fairly low frequency as far as EM radiation goes. In general for anything in the radio wave portion of the EM spectrum you can just scale your antenna with the wavelength of what you are working with.If I am understanding you right, you are just referring to the instant when the current equals 0. At this same instant is when the charge density term in Jefimenko's equations is the maximum, and also when the dJ/dt rate of change of current density term is the greatest. This is the term that results in electromagnetic radiation.Quote from: dustinthewind on 03/04/2019 01:35 amSee the image on this paper which shows light emanating from a charge but perpendicular to the direction the charge is accelerated. Under "Radiation as a Consequence of the Cosmic Speed Limit" http://physics.weber.edu/schroeder/mrr/mrrhandout.pdfIt is this radiation pattern that Purcell derives in his book "Electricity and magnetism" for an accelerated charge that alerted me that the Biot-Savart equation also describes such a radiation pattern from a single charge. What you are referring to seems to be the result of doing the vector sum of normal radially outward portion of the field of the charge, plus the effect of the radiation term. (sum of the first and third terms of Jefimenko's E-field equation. ) The portions of the electric field that are perpendicular to the direction of acceleration are very weak. In the picture you can tell this because the field lines are far apart (compared to the regions where the field lines nearly overlap, where most of the radiated energy goes.)

Quote from: dustinthewind on 03/04/2019 01:35 amIf light is described by the Biot-Savart equation which is the (magnetic field) of a single charge then this separates light from its (electric field). The charges static or non-relativistic electric field can also vary in time as charge is separated in time in a wire. Biot-Savart only applies for steady currents. In those cases it is just the first term of the magnetic field in Jefimenko's equations, without the need to worry about retarded time and position. The second term is where the interesting actual radiation comes from.

Quote from: dustinthewind on 03/04/2019 01:35 amThis electric field is very different from light (magnetic) because the electric field points toward the charge while lights electric field points in the direction of the charges acceleration. This makes its electric field perpendicular to that of light so they are different beasts. The electric field of EM radiation (light) is perpendicular to the direction of propagation of the wave. The field from the charge itself points towards the charge, which is essentially perpendicular to the direction of propagation of the wave, so it seems you are just talking about the field of the charge. However, in the case of a temporary charge distribution in an antenna, far from the antenna, the field drops off rapidly. In the near field, it is just part of the complex interactions between different elements of an array that results in the array as a whole feeling a reaction force in the opposite direction from the net emitted radiation. (Effectively it communicates the existence of the other elements in the array and the signals they transmitted, so each element feels the effective force based o the direction its energy actually got transmitted in)Quote from: dustinthewind on 03/04/2019 01:35 amWhat is interesting is that in a phased array the propulsion of the magnetic field is opposite of the propulsion of the time retarded electric field. Yet we still get photon propulsion out of this. I still don't see how you can be coming to this conclusion. The actual fields that carry any significant distance from an antenna array of any design are the dJ/dt terms in Jefimenko's equation. The dq/dt term looks like it would result in 1/R as well, but that goes away at far distances, because the charge distribution is that of a dipole.

Quote from: dustinthewind on 03/04/2019 01:35 amIf the magnetic field is light then I guess what I am really interested in making an electric field array which should emit a strange form of electric field in the direction in which no light can emanate. In the direction in which charges are accelerated. See image below of electric field phased array. Not a light emission phased array.I don't understand how to read that diagram, I don't know what the zig zag lines are supposed to be. Are you proposing an actual wire in the shape of a zig-zag? Is it supposed to be a coil? Something entirely different? In either case, more dimensions are needed than the distance from one zig-zag element to the other.

Sorry, the diagram is of wires where the wavelength of radiation is of the order of the wires length. There is a dq/dt term indicated on the wires. To be honest I think the frequency term or some capacitance needs to be there to enhance how much charge is actually separated. By introducing capacitors I wonder if there might eventually be a quadra-pole term.

Quote from: dustinthewind on 03/04/2019 01:35 pmSorry, the diagram is of wires where the wavelength of radiation is of the order of the wires length. There is a dq/dt term indicated on the wires. To be honest I think the frequency term or some capacitance needs to be there to enhance how much charge is actually separated. By introducing capacitors I wonder if there might eventually be a quadra-pole term. I also thought that capacitor plates at the endpoints of the wire would be a good idea. Already included these in my build. I think that these would enhance charge separation and maybe add a bit more directionality to the electric wave. More importantly it will make the driver circuitry easier to build since the capacitor-inductor-capacitor model will be a naturally tuned circuit.

Quote from: elektryx tech on 03/04/2019 09:03 pmQuote from: dustinthewind on 03/04/2019 01:35 pmSorry, the diagram is of wires where the wavelength of radiation is of the order of the wires length. There is a dq/dt term indicated on the wires. To be honest I think the frequency term or some capacitance needs to be there to enhance how much charge is actually separated. By introducing capacitors I wonder if there might eventually be a quadra-pole term. I also thought that capacitor plates at the endpoints of the wire would be a good idea. Already included these in my build. I think that these would enhance charge separation and maybe add a bit more directionality to the electric wave. More importantly it will make the driver circuitry easier to build since the capacitor-inductor-capacitor model will be a naturally tuned circuit.I would be curious to see a picture if you get to a point where you think it is photogenic. Just out of curiosity and that a picture has a lot to say about what to possibly expect.

Something else to watch out for. A phased array's antenna components naturally all want to reflect radiation. If they do this then it won't be a phased array. Positive work has to be done on the antennas in the direction you want the radiation to transmit. The antennas that cancel the radiation actually need to do negative work. That is the electrons in them need to move with the incoming electric field but encounter resistance in the wire. I think the trick is making sure that the current is actually 90 degrees out of phase between the elements, instead of operation in their reflective mode. That the current is actually behaving as it should might require monitoring of current. To accomplish this there needs to be adjustment of voltages on each element. It's similar in the electric phased array above. If a plate sees the plate below as repulsive it has the same charge. This reduces the plates effective ability to hold charge. More voltage is required to store the same amount of charge on that plate. if the plate below sees the other plate above as attractive it has enhanced ability to store charge. Less voltage needs to be applied to store the same amount of charge. So there's this reoccurring theme of positive work on one side, negative work on the other.