Author Topic: Senate CJS Appropriation Bill Full Committee Markup June 5th at 10 AM  (Read 65169 times)

Offline JohnFornaro

  • Not an expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9239
  • Delta-t is the salient metric.
  • Planet Eaarth
    • Design / Program Associates
  • Liked: 664
  • Likes Given: 361

Quote from: JF
From:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CRPT-113srpt181/pdf/CRPT-113srpt181.pdf

Quote
The Committee directs NASA to only place astronauts on acommercial crew vehicle that NASA acquired under a FAR contract that allows NASA to require the company to meet all safety requirements.

The clear implication being that an SAA contract wouldn't, in principle, allow for any safety requirements whatsoever.  Not only that, but in principle, any SAA contract, could not, by some mystery, be even worded to accomodate safety.

The contractural system wasn't broke, so they now propose to fix it.  All Cretans are liars.

Just to be clear I was more talking about the engineering design than how it would be funded or the contract supervised. 

...

I realize that you were discussing a somewhat different aspect, engineering design.

My point is more along the lines of observing how the very language that they use is intended to limit and frame the conversation.  This is not random language with unintended meaninga; it is deliberate language.  The quiet falsehood is that an SAA contract, again, by a mystery process, could not in principle allow for NASA to "require the company to meet all safety requirements".

By their words, ye shall know them.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline JohnFornaro

  • Not an expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9239
  • Delta-t is the salient metric.
  • Planet Eaarth
    • Design / Program Associates
  • Liked: 664
  • Likes Given: 361
no a sidemount design would have been the excellent transition, with a Direct follow on a maybe.   We would be operational now.

Probably the case, from the perspective of this armchair.  The time was five years ago, the shuttle was still flying, the expertise was at its peak, manufacturing lines had not been completely disassembled, subsequent actually budgeted  funding would have been adequate.

There is no intent to succeed.
« Last Edit: 06/11/2014 05:19 pm by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline JohnFornaro

  • Not an expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9239
  • Delta-t is the salient metric.
  • Planet Eaarth
    • Design / Program Associates
  • Liked: 664
  • Likes Given: 361
Somebody does not want his problem (crew to ISS) solved.

Bingo.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline JohnFornaro

  • Not an expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9239
  • Delta-t is the salient metric.
  • Planet Eaarth
    • Design / Program Associates
  • Liked: 664
  • Likes Given: 361
Senate May 1st CJS Appropriations meeting:
Quote
Bolden to Shelby:"You cannot fund enough to get SLS to a 70% JCL and I don't want you to do that."
I've had to re start viewing this a few times to calm down.

I think it would be interesting to picture what would happen if Shelby posted on NSF.

"Seemingly unlimited federal resources" for commercial crew. "Budget cuts" for SLS.

You'd have to ban him for blatant trolling. 

At least Mr. Sowers screwed up enough courage to post his viewpoint here.  Did he listen to anyone but himself?  Will he respond to fact based objections?  Nahh.

Shelby will not post here; his position is indefensible, and he could not make any rational line of reasoning to support the positions he is taking, and would, in an ideal instance of the universe, have to admit the false premises underlying his virtually complete track record in his long term evisceratiion our nation's HSF capabilities, not to mention a good possibility of not getting any such capability back within the next few decades.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline JohnFornaro

  • Not an expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9239
  • Delta-t is the salient metric.
  • Planet Eaarth
    • Design / Program Associates
  • Liked: 664
  • Likes Given: 361
 
...Shelby asked about [how] soon Commercial Crew providers could take over from Russia if unlimited funding was available for them ...

Shelby's deliberately false premise translated in less than 140 CHAR's:

If pigs had wings, we wouldn't need to launch our astros on unsafe trampolines.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Rocket Science

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9446
  • NASA Educator Astronaut Candidate Applicant 2002
  • Liked: 3295
  • Likes Given: 9184
I get the impression that the good senator could care less if ISS goes away in 2020 since they are not using his launch vehicle of choice. Once that happens all the funds can go to evolve the “Shelby Launch System”.....
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator, Vintage auto racer

Offline JohnFornaro

  • Not an expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9239
  • Delta-t is the salient metric.
  • Planet Eaarth
    • Design / Program Associates
  • Liked: 664
  • Likes Given: 361
NASA has the ability and competency to do all of these programs well, it just doesn't have the budget to do so.

Jim has pointed out over and over, that competence, particularly managerial competence, possibly due to an overactive Peter Principle, may be at the heart of NASA's inability to do "all of these programs well".

I think I agree.
« Last Edit: 06/12/2014 02:25 am by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline JohnFornaro

  • Not an expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9239
  • Delta-t is the salient metric.
  • Planet Eaarth
    • Design / Program Associates
  • Liked: 664
  • Likes Given: 361
...  North Carolina passed a bill limiting the amount of Sea Level rise climate change models used in the state could predict. After public embarrassment the bill went unsigned by the Governor.

And Stalin disagreed with the principles of genetics.

Thanks in part to the tea party, our legislatures are getting closer to the point where they actually babble when in office.  D's and R's are going right along with the Babylon program.

But I gotta go now, and yoga ain't until 5:30.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Sean Lynch

I don't believe NASA was using JCL budgeting when the Shuttle was in development.  To answer the question, one would probably need to retrospectively construct a 70% JCL.  If I recall correctly, though, cost overruns on the Shuttle's development (though not it operations) were modest, at least by the standards of cutting-edge technology programs.  If that's right, it might tend to suggest that the Shuttle was budgeted at a fairly high JCL.
Cost overruns have been very problematic for NASA, but risk management assessment technology is improving to address the issue.  New tools are developing that take project management from an art to a science, as it should be.
I think we can all agree that it's a waste of resources to cancel huge investments in projects nearing completion, but at the same time, if project management including risk assessment isn't handled properly from the outset overruns/delays and possible cancellation is the result.
Consider the ISS propulsion module (GAO report attached) and follow on NodeX projects.  I mention these because propulsion module technology may become relevant in extending the life of ISS beyond 2020.
New development efforts such as SLS should be funded so they succeed...so I don't have an issue with funding a project to a level that assures success.
I do have issues with underfunding or intentionally interfering with commercial programs that are already proving successful at meeting milestones.
"Space is open to us now; and our eagerness to share its meaning is not governed by the efforts of others."
-JFK May 25, 1961

Offline Sean Lynch

I get the impression that the good senator could care less if ISS goes away in 2020 since they are not using his launch vehicle of choice. Once that happens all the funds can go to evolve the “Shelby Launch System”.....
That is my concern for the FY2016 budget, that the commercial crew program may be cancelled because it would be much cheaper to ride out the last three years with the Russians. As it stands NASA has paid Russia for rides through 2017. We'd be spending 3.4 billion on Commercial Crew for 4-6 launches to ISS, then it would be over as far as LEO research goes. And we need the ISS for an engineering and medical research platform.
However, by adding crippling FAR reporting requirements, testing at NASA facility requirements, and other "transparency" requirements Shelby's language may effectively thwart Americans launching from US soil in 2017.
"Space is open to us now; and our eagerness to share its meaning is not governed by the efforts of others."
-JFK May 25, 1961

Offline john smith 19

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7938
  • Everyplaceelse
  • Liked: 1351
  • Likes Given: 8993
At least Mr. Sowers screwed up enough courage to post his viewpoint here.  Did he listen to anyone but himself?  Will he respond to fact based objections?  Nahh.
TBF he did respond a few times. I'm not sure if they were to substantive questions however.
Quote
Shelby will not post here; his position is indefensible, and he could not make any rational line of reasoning to support the positions he is taking, and would, in an ideal instance of the universe, have to admit the false premises underlying his virtually complete track record in his long term evisceratiion our nation's HSF capabilities, not to mention a good possibility of not getting any such capability back within the next few decades.
His "rationale" can be summed up in 2 words. "Marshall" and "Decata," with a side order of Alabama U. (go "The Crimson Tide" What ???)

I'm fairly sure he <irritating redaction of relatively mild profanity> less about if the rest of NASA imploded as long as they, and the centres that support them, were preserved (Yes I'm aware Decata is not a NASA facility).

Keep in mind that that is exactly in line with his responsibilities of keeping the cash flowing to his state.  :(
It's what the people who employ him want.

Wheather it's in line with his responsibilities for the good of the nation as a whole is another matter.  :( I thought members of Congress were meant to swear some kind of oath to support the whole nation, not just the region they were elected to represent, but my education on that side of things has been fairly minimal.

The Space Access Society are more charitable. They feel a lot of this is that members of Congress basically still see NASA though the rose tinted backvision of the mid 1960's, when every mission was an exploration missions, as so little was known the environment (both LEO and Lunar) and how well (if?) the equipment they had been issued with would function.

So if people want a more sensible space programme (and a better NASA) I guess they have to engage with their bit of Congress, find out what they think about NASA and start to (gently) correct their misconceptions ("No sir 'Armageddon' was not a dramatization of real events") about it.  :(

One Senator can stop the Shelby amendments cold. It all begins with one.
« Last Edit: 06/12/2014 09:00 am by john smith 19 »
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structure booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline Rocket Science

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9446
  • NASA Educator Astronaut Candidate Applicant 2002
  • Liked: 3295
  • Likes Given: 9184
At least Mr. Sowers screwed up enough courage to post his viewpoint here.  Did he listen to anyone but himself?  Will he respond to fact based objections?  Nahh.
TBF he did respond a few times. I'm not sure if they were to substantive questions however.
Quote
Shelby will not post here; his position is indefensible, and he could not make any rational line of reasoning to support the positions he is taking, and would, in an ideal instance of the universe, have to admit the false premises underlying his virtually complete track record in his long term evisceratiion our nation's HSF capabilities, not to mention a good possibility of not getting any such capability back within the next few decades.
His "rationale" can be summed up in 2 words. "Marshall" and "Decata," with a side order of Alabama U. (go "The Crimson Tide" What ???)

I'm fairly sure he <irritating redaction of relatively mild profanity> less about if the rest of NASA imploded as long as they, and the centres that support them, were preserved (Yes I'm aware Decata is not a NASA facility).

Keep in mind that that is exactly in line with his responsibilities of keeping the cash flowing to his state.  :(
It's what the people who employ him want.

Wheather it's in line with his responsibilities for the good of the nation as a whole is another matter.  :( I thought members of Congress were meant to swear some kind of oath to support the whole nation, not just the region they were elected to represent, but my education on that side of things has been fairly minimal.

The Space Access Society are more charitable. They feel a lot of this is that members of Congress basically still see NASA though the rose tinted backvision of the mid 1960's, when every mission was an exploration missions, as so little was known the environment (both LEO and Lunar) and how well (if?) the equipment they had bee issued with would function.

So if people want a more sensible space programme (and a better NASA) I guess they have to engage with their bit of Congress, find out what they think about NASA and start to (gently) correct their misconceptions ("No sir 'Armageddon' was not a dramatization of real events") about it.  :(

One Senator can stop the Shelby amendments cold. It all begins with one.

This kind of “monkey business” has been going on since 1776...
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator, Vintage auto racer

Offline JohnFornaro

  • Not an expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9239
  • Delta-t is the salient metric.
  • Planet Eaarth
    • Design / Program Associates
  • Liked: 664
  • Likes Given: 361
At least Mr. Sowers screwed up enough courage to post his viewpoint here.  Did he listen to anyone but himself?  Will he respond to fact based objections?  Nahh.
TBF he did respond a few times. I'm not sure if they were to substantive questions however.

The few times were unsubstantial, by my take, since he did not address the salient issues I raised.  Which is not to say that there is some unique majik that I bring to the table; I merely recounted the facts of the bid protest, and pointed out the grammatical, ecumenical, and spiritual inadequacies of the discussion that he started.  That is the false attribution of responsibility of one American company for the intransigence of another nation.

There's not really a "TBF" here, that I would agree to.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline john smith 19

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7938
  • Everyplaceelse
  • Liked: 1351
  • Likes Given: 8993
This kind of “monkey business” has been going on since 1776...
Sadly I fear that is literally true.  :(

Whenever a situation exists that most people agree is very bad yet persists in existing you have to ask yourself 2 questions.

1)Who benefits and how?
2)What do they do to maintain the status quo?

Once you can answer those questions you should have a handle on how to disrupt their influence.

But note. That does not guarantee the outcome you want, just a different outcome.  :(
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structure booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Online docmordrid

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5457
  • Michigan
  • Liked: 2845
  • Likes Given: 1
Good read. Hopefully it influences those working on the final Senate version and conference report.

Link....

Quote
In a policy statement issued today, the White House took issue with two objectives near and dear to Sen. Richard Shelby (R-AL): crippling NASA’s Commercial Crew Program and boosting its Space Launch System (SLS).
>
« Last Edit: 06/18/2014 07:29 am by docmordrid »
DM

Offline Sean Lynch

Good read. Hopefully it influences those working on the final Senate version and conference report.

Link....

Quote
In a policy statement issued today, the White House took issue with two objectives near and dear to Sen. Richard Shelby (R-AL): crippling NASA’s Commercial Crew Program and boosting its Space Launch System (SLS).
>
policy statement attached from:
http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/06/17/white-house-washington-times-both-criticize-senate-commercial-crew-language/
"Space is open to us now; and our eagerness to share its meaning is not governed by the efforts of others."
-JFK May 25, 1961

Offline john smith 19

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7938
  • Everyplaceelse
  • Liked: 1351
  • Likes Given: 8993
policy statement attached from:
http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/06/17/white-house-washington-times-both-criticize-senate-commercial-crew-language/

Yes, but check the comments section.

I didn't know Henry Vanderbilt ever commented.  :)

I also noticed this little gem about Boeing's approach to Commercial Crew

http://www.spacenews.com/article/civil-space/40931boeing-preparing-layoff-notices-in-case-of-commercial-crew-loss

This isn't the first time Boeing have played the "Give us the Commercial Crew contract or the workforce gets it" routine either.  :(

I have to wonder did Boeing stockholders vote to behave this way?  :(

I'm glad Shelby's efforts are getting some (negative) attention in mainstream media but this battle is far from over.  Where politics is concerned I've learned the truth that "The game's not over till the last balls down."
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structure booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline AncientU

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6252
  • Liked: 4123
  • Likes Given: 5668
Quote
The Senate provides no specific FY 2015 funding for a mission to Europe, which is believed to have a substantial ocean beneath its frozen surface.

That would be an interesting find...
"If we shared everything [we are working on] people would think we are insane!"
-- SpaceX friend of mlindner

Offline Proponent

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5814
  • Liked: 1309
  • Likes Given: 787
I also noticed this little gem about Boeing's approach to Commercial Crew

http://www.spacenews.com/article/civil-space/40931boeing-preparing-layoff-notices-in-case-of-commercial-crew-loss

This isn't the first time Boeing have played the "Give us the Commercial Crew contract or the workforce gets it" routine either.  :(

I have to wonder did Boeing stockholders vote to behave this way?  :(

It's not pretty, but it's perfectly reasonable corporate behavior.  I'd say, in fact, that Boeing's management has a fiduciary obligation to its shareholders to at least consider the use of all legal means at its disposal to win the contract.

Offline Sean Lynch

"Space is open to us now; and our eagerness to share its meaning is not governed by the efforts of others."
-JFK May 25, 1961

Tags: