Author Topic: Senate CJS Appropriation Bill Full Committee Markup June 5th at 10 AM  (Read 65179 times)

Offline QuantumG

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Last I heard, Boeing had explicitly said they won't be putting any of their own funding into CCtCap. I really wish NASA's blackout period would end and they'd get on with it.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline yg1968

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Last I heard, Boeing had explicitly said they won't be putting any of their own funding into CCtCap. I really wish NASA's blackout period would end and they'd get on with it.

No, it's the opposite. Boeing said that it would invest some of its funds for the next round (CCtCap). But they have put little to no funding into the CST-100 so far.
« Last Edit: 06/05/2014 01:49 pm by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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« Last Edit: 06/05/2014 02:09 pm by yg1968 »

Offline Hog

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Heroin, $6/pound, doesnt sound correct to me.
« Last Edit: 06/05/2014 02:28 pm by Hog »
Paul

Offline yg1968

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CJS bill passed the full committee without any amendments that relate to NASA.
« Last Edit: 06/05/2014 02:50 pm by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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Disgusting. Shelby is able to ram through anti-commercial crew stuff without any opposition.

Offline john smith 19

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Disgusting. Shelby is able to ram through anti-commercial crew stuff without any opposition.
You have to admit that Shelby is a real political operator on the scale of say, Jason Webb.

He plays the committee like a church organ.  :(

And will no doubt continue doing so until there is a "regime change" in 'bama.
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structure booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline john smith 19

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BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structure booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline john smith 19

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NASA is getting decent increases

Here is a quick breakdown of NASA funding in the subcommittee’s appropriations bill:
◾NASA is funded at $17.9 billion, which is $254 million (1.4%) above its current funding level.
◾Space exploration is funded at $4.4 billion, a $254 million (6.2%) increase above the current level, including $1.7 billion for the SLS Rocket, $1.2 billion for the Orion Capsule, and $805 million for commercial crew.
◾The bill includes language requiring NASA to ensure that companies participating in the competition for the development of Commercial Crew launch vehicles be required to submit certified cost and pricing data.
◾The bill includes language requiring NASA to demand certified cost and pricing data for the new round of contracts for future cargo resupply missions.

But while these men and their companies are worthy of much of the praise being heaped upon them, it’s important to keep in mind that over 90% of the money being spent on the Commercial Crew program is coming out of the pockets of the taxpayers, not from the private companies themselves.


if true its skewed the wrong direction. :(
I'd really like you to quote exactly where that 90% figure comes from because if you can't I'd suggest you remove it or qualify it.

AFAIK both Spacex and SNC are roughly 50/50 on in terms of NASA/company funding. Boeing is the odd one out. I'm not sure how much they have put in but I got the impression it's not much. So Boeing's segment would have to dwarf that of Spacex and SNC for that figure to be real.

Except we know it's not.

While I'm at it I wonder how much time all that increased funding will lop off the SLS schedule? A day? A week? Two weeks?
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structure booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline john smith 19

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What ticks off a lot of people inside the beltway is how SpaceX is using its CRS money.  It isn't "profit" but being recycled into the Commercial Crew Effort.  This is how SpaceX is advancing so rapidly.  And on a side note - Boeing does not have a lot of its own skin the Commercial Crew game.
Outrageous.

The audacity of spacex. Reinvesting their funds like some sort of regular business.  ;)

Who do they think they are?
<tongue being removed from cheek>
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structure booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline InfraNut2

AFAIK both Spacex and SNC are roughly 50/50 on in terms of NASA/company funding. Boeing is the odd one out. I'm not sure how much they have put in but I got the impression it's not much.

ShotwellElon just said NASA funding was 70-80% of Commercial Crew costs. That makes sense vs COTS  (< 50%) since the costs are significantly higher and the "guaranteed" NASA market is similar in value.

SNC has probably somewhat more skin in the game, as a percentage, since their share of the money for CCiCap was significantly smaller and they have been aggressively investing to keep up.

NASA "complained" in a report (I think it was CCDEV2 selection) that Boeings skin-in-the-game was significantly less in an earlier phase, without releasing the numbers. I think that is true for CCiCap as well. It will be interesting to see if they are willing to step up and invest more in CCtCap now that the risks and rewards are better defined, or if they still will be as financially risk-averse as before.
« Last Edit: 06/05/2014 08:13 pm by InfraNut2 »

Offline john smith 19

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NASA "complained" in a report (I think it was CCDEV2 selection) that Boeings skin-in-the-game was significantly less in an earlier phase, without releasing the numbers. I think that is true for CCiCap as well. It will be interesting to see if they are willing to step up and invest more in CCtCap now that the risks and rewards are better defined, or if they still will be as financially risk-averse as before.
Honestly I would not bet on it.  :( Boeing is a publicly quoted joint stock company, Spacex is private and SNC is (IIRC) an employee owned business.

I think the amount of company investment and risk taken shows pretty clearly what a bad choice a publicly traded joint stock corporation is for a highly innovative government project.  :(

Just my impression.
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structure booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline AncientU

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Then again, Boeing's annual revenue($87B in 2013) is about 5x NASA's annual budget.
They could afford a bit more skin.
"If we shared everything [we are working on] people would think we are insane!"
-- SpaceX friend of mlindner

Offline john smith 19

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Then again, Boeing's annual revenue($87B in 2013) is about 5x NASA's annual budget.
They could afford a bit more skin.
I'd suggest that Boeing's upper management see only NASA as the possible customer and are either relying on their reputation "We're Boeing, obviously we're the safe pair of hands," or they realize deep down they don't bring enough design diversity to be the backup option, so they preparing to cut and run.  :(

One of the things I still can't get my head around in the whole COTS/CRS/CCiCAP story is that Spacex were the only people who saw Crew as an upgrade to an existing cargo vehicle.

It was so obviously the way to go by designing in the hooks for crew carriage from day one.  :(

However to return more to topic I can' help feel that anyone who thinks Spacex should bid for any new OSC lox/kero engine should ask what Some members of the US Senate have done and ask why Spacex would bother.
« Last Edit: 06/05/2014 10:27 pm by john smith 19 »
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structure booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline QuantumG

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Boeing was burned by the EELV program. They know first hand how "skin the game" translates to no profits when it comes to government programs. If anything, Boeing has the better case for markets beyond NASA.

Boeing is building CST-100 the way NASA likes spacecraft to be built these days: lots and lots of paperwork and computer models, very little testing and iteration. They'll make claims like "99.999% safe" before the vehicle has even flown, and that'll force the competition to do the same - even though, sensibly, no such claim can be made about a vehicle that hasn't even flown.

Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline john smith 19

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Boeing was burned by the EELV program. They know first hand how "skin the game" translates to no profits when it comes to government programs. If anything, Boeing has the better case for markets beyond NASA.
Based on their reputation or something else?
Quote
Boeing is building CST-100 the way NASA likes spacecraft to be built these days: lots and lots of paperwork and computer models, very little testing and iteration. They'll make claims like "99.999% safe" before the vehicle has even flown, and that'll force the competition to do the same - even though, sensibly, no such claim can be made about a vehicle that hasn't even flown.
Which would appear to be an exceptionally silly strategy when they have no flown hardware.  :(
But as I don't have an MBA what do I know?
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structure booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline QuantumG

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Based on their reputation or something else?

Apparently Bigelow is going with Boeing as the leader for transport to their future stations. He has an agreement with SpaceX too, but it's a lot more mum.

Quote
Which would appear to be an exceptionally silly strategy when they have no flown hardware.  :(

I agree, but the customer is always right, right?
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline yg1968

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« Last Edit: 06/06/2014 01:32 am by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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Here is a copy of the CJS Report (NASA starts on page 106):
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CRPT-113srpt181/pdf/CRPT-113srpt181.pdf
http://www.appropriations.senate.gov/news/committee-approves-fy-2015-cjs-and-thud-appropriations-bills

The Shelby text requiring certified cost and pricing data for commercial crew and cargo is on pages 117 and 118.
« Last Edit: 06/06/2014 02:34 pm by yg1968 »

Offline Lar

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I self moderated a rather snarky post (and someone calling me on it).
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

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