Author Topic: Musk lays out plans for reusability of the Falcon 9 rocket  (Read 105094 times)

Offline neviden

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Re: Musk lays out plans for reusability of the Falcon 9 rocket
« Reply #40 on: 10/04/2013 03:43 pm »
I think that it he will try for a land in february, if he can build it by then and get FAA to say "ok". The worst it would happen is that RSO would have to destroy it in the air over the ocean or that it crashes an empty stage on a simple concrete pad in the middle of nowhere.

As far as a longterm falcon future it is VERY bright. I am quite certain that many in NASA would love nothing more then to say to Musk "please take our 15 $B and do whatever you would like to do..". Can anyone imagine what would that do to spaceflight? You know, those good ideas that we can read in dusty old pdfs? That would no longer be "it costs 500 $B and will take 30 years to complete" but someting that would be built. 200 mt reusable, cheap flights. Depos. SEP. Nautilus-X spaceships. Mars. Moon. Phobos. 2001 style spacestations. Asteroid habitats,..

But, what probably will happen is that SpaceX will get to have 4 pads, lots of "pork free" profit from GEO, DoD, NASA and Biggelow LEO launches. Musk will then take this money, build his Falcon X, Mars missions and go to Mars just so he can take a picture of green plants on a red Mars in person. Then, he will put that on the wall and ask himself "hmm.. What should I do next?" :)

Offline BrightLight

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Re: Musk lays out plans for reusability of the Falcon 9 rocket
« Reply #41 on: 10/04/2013 03:55 pm »
Grasshopper 2 will probably still be needed.  It can demonstrate very fast turnaround and test test test...
There might also be tests related to lunar landings.

Supersonic retropropulsion has been demonstrated now, but how fast was it going?  aerocapture at Mars prior to landing?  Or direct injection?           

I sure hope Elon or Kimbal had a steady hand on their video camera when they flew out to watch!  I'm assuming they were both in there, but don't know.  I know they might wait to release the final moments for their "bloopers reel" a few years from now, but I hope we get to see everything at least up almost until the point of the splash(es).
I think a new thread should be opened on super sonic retro-propulsion, i for one would be very interested in the details - fuel consumption, deceleration rates, TPS heating rates, ablation rates etc.
Amazing stuff.

Offline douglas100

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Re: Musk lays out plans for reusability of the Falcon 9 rocket
« Reply #42 on: 10/04/2013 03:58 pm »
I would like to point out this part of the article and of Elons statemen.

Quote
Recovery of the first stage of the Falcon 9 involves a supersonic retro-propulsion with three engines

Supersonic retropropulsion was achieved with the Cassiope flight. That was declared as one of the long poles for propulsive landing on Mars and as a major obstacle for landing large payloads.

I am a little surprised this has not been discussed yet. I mention it here because it is in the article. Any discussion should probably get into another thread.

Yes, ditto.

I recall being at presentation at JPL where Rob Manning went on about an hour about how you could never do supersonic retropropulsion, and thus Mars landers will always need parachutes to get from Mach 3-4 to subsonic. If SpaceX got this working, then landing on Mars just became a whole lot easier.

I think the SpaceX maneuver may not be exactly equivalent to a Mars landing burn. It depends under what conditions the F9 engines were restarted. Did it it happen when they were still effectively in a vacuum, or was the vehicle already in the atmosphere and being subjected to a supersonic air stream? My understanding of the Mars landing maneuver was that the landing burn had to be started in the atmosphere against the supersonic flow and that was what made the whole thing difficult.

The final burn of the F9 was definitely started against the airflow, but by that time the vehicle would be subsonic.

Edit: @ Bright Light: I think you might be right.
« Last Edit: 10/04/2013 04:00 pm by douglas100 »
Douglas Clark

Offline Eric Hedman

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Re: Musk lays out plans for reusability of the Falcon 9 rocket
« Reply #43 on: 10/04/2013 04:15 pm »
Grasshopper 2 will probably still be needed.  It can demonstrate very fast turnaround and test test test...
There might also be tests related to lunar landings.

Supersonic retropropulsion has been demonstrated now, but how fast was it going?  aerocapture at Mars prior to landing?  Or direct injection?           

I sure hope Elon or Kimbal had a steady hand on their video camera when they flew out to watch!  I'm assuming they were both in there, but don't know.  I know they might wait to release the final moments for their "bloopers reel" a few years from now, but I hope we get to see everything at least up almost until the point of the splash(es).
I think a new thread should be opened on super sonic retro-propulsion, i for one would be very interested in the details - fuel consumption, deceleration rates, TPS heating rates, ablation rates etc.
Amazing stuff.
Here is a youtube video of one of Langley's supersonic retropropulsion wind tunnel tests.


Offline douglas100

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Re: Musk lays out plans for reusability of the Falcon 9 rocket
« Reply #44 on: 10/04/2013 04:16 pm »
Also, an artificial sea platform for a F9 core will probably not be trivial to build. I'll let the experts here let us know how easy/difficult it would be.

I'm not sure there are experts anywhere on building seagoing landing pads for descending rocket stages...

This has been discussed over and over again on other threads. For F9 (not F9H) there is no indication that they intend to  land stages downrange operationally. The point is to keep the operational cost as low as possible at the expense of taking a payload hit of about 30%. And that means they have to spend precisely nothing on downrange recovery. They are not trying to squeeze every last drop of performance out of the system.
« Last Edit: 10/04/2013 04:18 pm by douglas100 »
Douglas Clark

Offline dcporter

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Re: Musk lays out plans for reusability of the Falcon 9 rocket
« Reply #45 on: 10/04/2013 04:43 pm »
Here's a link to 17 pages of downrange / ocean landing discussion. Please read it through and continue discussion there.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31452.0

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Musk lays out plans for reusability of the Falcon 9 rocket
« Reply #46 on: 10/04/2013 05:26 pm »
I would like to point out this part of the article and of Elons statemen.

Quote
Recovery of the first stage of the Falcon 9 involves a supersonic retro-propulsion with three engines

Supersonic retropropulsion was achieved with the Cassiope flight. That was declared as one of the long poles for propulsive landing on Mars and as a major obstacle for landing large payloads.

I am a little surprised this has not been discussed yet. I mention it here because it is in the article. Any discussion should probably get into another thread.

Yes, ditto.

I recall being at presentation at JPL where Rob Manning went on about an hour about how you could never do supersonic retropropulsion, and thus Mars landers will always need parachutes to get from Mach 3-4 to subsonic. If SpaceX got this working, then landing on Mars just became a whole lot easier.
Where does Rob Manning say that? It sounds obviously wrong. The whole problem of supersonic retropropulsion is pretty much limited to the case of a single engine in the center of the heatshield (you're pretty much fine if you use multiple engines more towards the sides), and even there, much of the issue is just a reduction of drag once you fire up the engine.

This sounds like one of those things that people hear is sort of a problem because of some study, but then they never return to examine what the assumptions of the problem actually are before saying the whole concept is worthless. This seems to happen far more often when someone has a stake in the concept /not/ working.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

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Online JBF

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Re: Musk lays out plans for reusability of the Falcon 9 rocket
« Reply #47 on: 10/04/2013 05:31 pm »
The whole problem of supersonic retropropulsion is pretty much limited to the case of a single engine in the center of the heatshield (you're pretty much fine if you use multiple engines more towards the sides), and even there, much of the issue is just a reduction of drag once you fire up the engine.

Are you sure about that?  Watching Langley's supersonic retropropulsion wind tunnel tests it looks like 1 in the center is the more stable air flow.
"In principle, rocket engines are simple, but thatís the last place rocket engines are ever simple." Jeff Bezos

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Musk lays out plans for reusability of the Falcon 9 rocket
« Reply #48 on: 10/04/2013 05:36 pm »
The whole problem of supersonic retropropulsion is pretty much limited to the case of a single engine in the center of the heatshield (you're pretty much fine if you use multiple engines more towards the sides), and even there, much of the issue is just a reduction of drag once you fire up the engine.

Are you sure about that?  Watching Langley's supersonic retropropulsion wind tunnel tests it looks like 1 in the center is the more stable air flow.
The nozzles are still very close to the center.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline VatTas

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Re: Musk lays out plans for reusability of the Falcon 9 rocket
« Reply #49 on: 10/04/2013 06:17 pm »
One piece of information that I'm actually missing is how close to target area was first stage when it ignited (and flamed out). But since SpaceX looks happy with results, one could speculate that it was not very far-off.

Update: ok, I read the transcript, Elon states that "We controlled the stage with a fair bit of precision to a landing point with the center engine burn".
« Last Edit: 10/04/2013 06:27 pm by VatTas »

Offline Jarnis

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Re: Musk lays out plans for reusability of the Falcon 9 rocket
« Reply #50 on: 10/04/2013 07:33 pm »
One piece of information that I'm actually missing is how close to target area was first stage when it ignited (and flamed out). But since SpaceX looks happy with results, one could speculate that it was not very far-off.

Update: ok, I read the transcript, Elon states that "We controlled the stage with a fair bit of precision to a landing point with the center engine burn".

Just wish Mr. Musk would get that video uploaded to somewhere already. Been checking SpaceX youtube and vimeo accounts daily...  ;D

Offline PreferToLurk

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Re: Musk lays out plans for reusability of the Falcon 9 rocket
« Reply #51 on: 10/04/2013 08:19 pm »
One piece of information that I'm actually missing is how close to target area was first stage when it ignited (and flamed out). But since SpaceX looks happy with results, one could speculate that it was not very far-off.

Update: ok, I read the transcript, Elon states that "We controlled the stage with a fair bit of precision to a landing point with the center engine burn".

Just wish Mr. Musk would get that video uploaded to somewhere already. Been checking SpaceX youtube and vimeo accounts daily...  ;D

He has a history of over committing his PR team.  The 3D design and printing video took longer than promised also.  I have my money on next Tuesday.

But yeah, this has to be one of the most anticipated SpaceX videos since the first hoverslam!

Offline mlindner

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Re: Musk lays out plans for reusability of the Falcon 9 rocket
« Reply #52 on: 10/05/2013 03:24 am »

I sure hope Elon or Kimbal had a steady hand on their video camera when they flew out to watch!  I'm assuming they were both in there, but don't know. 


Elon seemed to imply the video was being returned by boat, which is why it would take a week or so to get back to corporate HQ and be posted. Probably the video was shot on board one of the recovery boats.

False, talked to a friend the day after launch who described the video as being awesome. He's not a high ranking engineer either so the video has been widely circulated internal to SpaceX.
« Last Edit: 10/05/2013 03:40 am by mlindner »
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Offline mlindner

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Re: Musk lays out plans for reusability of the Falcon 9 rocket
« Reply #53 on: 10/05/2013 03:30 am »
Grasshopper 2 will probably still be needed.  It can demonstrate very fast turnaround and test test test...
There might also be tests related to lunar landings.

Supersonic retropropulsion has been demonstrated now, but how fast was it going?  aerocapture at Mars prior to landing?  Or direct injection?           

I sure hope Elon or Kimbal had a steady hand on their video camera when they flew out to watch!  I'm assuming they were both in there, but don't know.  I know they might wait to release the final moments for their "bloopers reel" a few years from now, but I hope we get to see everything at least up almost until the point of the splash(es).
I think a new thread should be opened on super sonic retro-propulsion, i for one would be very interested in the details - fuel consumption, deceleration rates, TPS heating rates, ablation rates etc.
Amazing stuff.

Stop posting about creating one, and create one.
Done and done. Go talk about it.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33006.0
« Last Edit: 10/05/2013 03:31 am by mlindner »
Internal combustion engine in space. It's just a Bad Idea.TM - Robotbeat

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Musk lays out plans for reusability of the Falcon 9 rocket
« Reply #54 on: 10/05/2013 03:32 am »
I understand the video is from an onboard camera and the recording was recovered from the materials salvaged, probably the interstage. I really expect awesome pictures.


Offline mlindner

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Re: Musk lays out plans for reusability of the Falcon 9 rocket
« Reply #55 on: 10/05/2013 03:41 am »
I understand the video is from an onboard camera and the recording was recovered from the materials salvaged, probably the interstage. I really expect awesome pictures.

He saw the video before the boat got back to the dock... Nobody uses film canisters anymore. It was probably received by a telemetry boat or some other method and beamed directly back to SpaceX HQX.
« Last Edit: 10/05/2013 03:42 am by mlindner »
Internal combustion engine in space. It's just a Bad Idea.TM - Robotbeat

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Musk lays out plans for reusability of the Falcon 9 rocket
« Reply #56 on: 10/05/2013 03:46 am »

He saw the video before the boat got back to the dock... Nobody uses film canisters anymore. It was probably received by a telemetry boat or some other method and beamed directly back to SpaceX HQX.

Did he state he saw it? I don't expect a film canister. Digital recording devices are available. And I am sure it was mentioned the video comes back with the boat.


Offline mlindner

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Re: Musk lays out plans for reusability of the Falcon 9 rocket
« Reply #57 on: 10/05/2013 05:17 am »

He saw the video before the boat got back to the dock... Nobody uses film canisters anymore. It was probably received by a telemetry boat or some other method and beamed directly back to SpaceX HQX.

Did he state he saw it? I don't expect a film canister. Digital recording devices are available. And I am sure it was mentioned the video comes back with the boat.

Yes he saw it, gave his impressions of it.

Source of knowing it comes back with the boat?
« Last Edit: 10/05/2013 05:23 am by mlindner »
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Offline guckyfan

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Re: Musk lays out plans for reusability of the Falcon 9 rocket
« Reply #58 on: 10/05/2013 06:13 am »
Yes he saw it, gave his impressions of it.

Source of knowing it comes back with the boat?

As I said from memory it was given as reason for the late release. Also saying it is a cool video does not require him to have seen it. Knowing it is from one or more onboard cameras is enough to make that statement.

But again this ia my interpretation of what was said, I don't state it as a fact.

Online ugordan

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Re: Musk lays out plans for reusability of the Falcon 9 rocket
« Reply #59 on: 10/05/2013 01:45 pm »
Anyone want to speculate on the location of the 1st stage camera?

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